M4rk Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 Hi guys, quick question which hopefully isn't too taxing (I'm sure it's not!) I'm currently doing a Tamiya 1/48 Spitfire Mk.I using the kit decals but have noticed they do not include the red gun port covers, which I believe was a type of red tape that went over the leading edge of the wings (supposedly to show whether the guns were fired or not I guess?). Not a major oversight on Tamiya's part I suppose but they are quite prominent on Spits so wondered what was the best way to replicate these? I suppose I could just spray the areas red and mask them off for the rest of the painting or even use carefully cut sections of masking tape painted red, but wondered if there was a better way that was used by more knowledgable builders? Thanks in advance Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perry Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 In 1/48, I would just paint the ports red though before on 1/32's, I have used red electrical tape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousFO98 Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 (edited) Hi Mark I used Tamiya masking tape, painted red dope Edited August 5, 2009 by walrus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Bunker Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 I use patches of red decal, it uses up those off-colour roundels as I believe these patches are one item where the colour varied. And decal is about the same scale thicknesss as the doped cloth would have been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheModeller Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 (edited) Edgar might chime in here but there are a couple of things he's mentioned that I've picked up on about these patches, the first is they weren't that common until about September of 1940, second, they weren't always red, blue and black have been mentioned as alternatives. As far as I've been able to work out the materials used could vary widely, in some instances I've seen mention of the patches being cut off a roll of sticky-backed fabric not unlike a big roll of Elastoplast, other sources say they were fabric squares doped in place with red-oxide(?) primer, still others suggest that squares of thick paper were pasted on... For my part when I apply them I usually fill the kits moulded gun-ports during assembly and then mask and spray the appropriate areas dull/dark red after the painting and decalling is finished, they were applied on top of the aircrafts finish so to me it makes sense to add them last of all. On the subject of the Tamiya Spit Mk.I in particular you should make sure to remove the moulded muzzle-flash supressors incorporated in the leading edge to depict a wartime Mk.I, these are only really suitable for a pre-war aircraft, of course there are a number of other little detail tweaks that should be included, the outlet vents for the gun heating system that was added quite early in the Mk.I's production, Tamiya included them under the wings of the Mk.Vb but missed them on the Mk.I. As I've said elsewhere, the Tamiya kit is ideally suited to making an early/pre-war Mk.I because of certain small features that are absent from the kit. Edited August 5, 2009 by TheModeller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M4rk Posted August 5, 2009 Author Share Posted August 5, 2009 Thanks for the help chaps. I think I might try the painted masking tape route and if it looks I'll bin them and just paint it instead. I did plan on doing them 'post-firing' so not a problem if they are just painted. TheModeller - as I'm using the kit decals, I'm not aware of the specific time period they are meant to represent . I suppose it could be late summer as it doesn't have the black/white undersides which I'm led to believe was phased out early on in the BoB, but I'm clearly no expert! I'm not going to lose any sleep over absolute accuracy tbh and just wanted to add them as the majority of Spits I see have the red tape on the wings so thought it was only right I added them to my model On another note, the moulded muzzle-flash supressors you mention, I assume these are just the protruding gun barrels moulded into the wings? I'll remove them now you've pointed it out, hadn't actually thought about it until now but looking at them does make me think they look a bit wrong, so thanks for that . I assume they should just be blank holes as with the other gun ports? As for the outlet vents for the gun heating system, I'm not quite sure what they look like, do you have a pic and/or can you tell me how to add these? If they're fairly discreet I might just plead ignorance and not bother with them mind . Are there any other significant tweaks you feel I should be made aware of? Cheers Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheModeller Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 As for the outlet vents for the gun heating system, I'm not quite sure what they look like, do you have a pic and/or can you tell me how to add these? If they're fairly discreet I might just plead ignorance and not bother with them mind . Are there any other significant tweaks you feel I should be made aware of? The vents can be ignored if you're not too fussed, just thought I'd mention them. For a true B-o-B era machine it would probably be worthwhile adding the seat-back and head armour plates to the cockpit, these were introduced in this period as kits to be fitted on the squadron and became a standard fit on the fighter marks after this. They are missing from the Tamiya Mk.I The vents can be seen in a number of pics... They are easy to see in the white of the roundels on this Spit which I think is the B-o-B Memorial flight machine, actually a Mk.II but the layout is the same. Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M4rk Posted August 6, 2009 Author Share Posted August 6, 2009 I see the vents you're referring to and I think I'll leave them off this time, thanks for pointing them out though Also the seat armour plating is catered for as I'm using the Eduard Zoom set for this kit, which includes the relevant metal. Cheers for mentioning them as well though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 Sorry I'm a bit late on this one, but life's a mite busy at present. I've just been watching a training film about a Mk.I being serviced by the various trades, and noticed that the back armour, in an R---- serial-numbered airframe, was black. I've been thinking (always a useful exercise) about these fabric covers ( they were pre-coloured and clear doped after application - look at a copy of the famous photo of ZD-F, and you'll see what I mean,) and I don't see why their application would have needed a mod no. for the Spitfire, since, in themselves, they wouldn't affect production one iota. However, what if (and I hate guessing) the original covers needed some sort of retainer (maybe a ring machined into the gun tubes and empty cartridge chutes?) I haven't found any evidence, in the form of drawings, so that will have to remain hanging in mid-air. However, the original request, for the mod, was made, in the form of a minute dated 3-7-40, so I think that it's possible that the patches might have dated from July. Edgar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurricane363 Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 At BBMF we use irish linen doped over the gun ports. It actually increases the A/C top speed by a couple knots till they have been fired.. Hope this helps Mat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheModeller Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 (edited) I've been thinking (always a useful exercise) about these fabric covers ( they were pre-coloured and clear doped after application - look at a copy of the famous photo of ZD-F, and you'll see what I mean,)... I read Bill(?) Tandys account of re-arming in Prices 'Spitfire - A complete fighting history', it was a while ago but I recall mention of the patches being doped in place, (I made the assumption he meant red-oxide dope) or on occasion self-adhesive medical tape being used if nothing else was available, he also mentions doping paper over the ejector ports to prevent moisture being thrown up from wet grass fields on take-off getting into the ejector chutes and breeches. ...However, the original request, for the mod, was made, in the form of a minute dated 3-7-40, so I think that it's possible that the patches might have dated from July. I remember chatting to you about dates and got September lodged in my mind, having looked at my notes again July is what you've said before, my mistake. Cheers for the extra info sir. Edited August 6, 2009 by TheModeller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pielstick Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 I remember reading somewhere quite a few years ago the covers were put over the gun ports to stop the guns icing up. It makes sense I suppose, the covers would stop moisture getting into the bore and breach mechanism and freezing, causing the guns to jam. I've seen mention of the patches being cut off a roll of sticky-backed fabric not unlike a big roll of Elastoplast I have read this somewhere too. As for methods of replicating the patches, there are some very good ideas here that I will have to try, especially the one about using old red decals! I was thinking the other day it might be worth trying to use a bit of toilet paper. Cut a single sheet into the size patch required, and fix it in place with some heavily thinned PVA glue or something similar. The only downside being you will need to paint the paper once it's glued in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 I often use clear decal sheet, painted red, then cut into squares. Edgar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyL Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 (edited) Or maybe to throw a spanner in the works...leave them open! Andy Edit: non marked pic replaced original posting Edited August 7, 2009 by AndyL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 True, but you can see where the patches have been, so the assumption could be (starter accumulator fitted, or not) that that particular aircraft hasn't yet been rearmed. Edgar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyL Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 Good point Edgar, hadn't thought of that! Photo is from mid to late September 1940 btw... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyL Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 (edited) Thought I'd stick this one up...shows the ports doped shut. Edit: Original marked picture replaced. Edited August 7, 2009 by AndyL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M4rk Posted August 7, 2009 Author Share Posted August 7, 2009 I like your no-nonsense approach to copyright protection AndyL. Incidentally, is that bull terrier actually sitting on the wing or have you added it for extra effect Thanks for all the info fellas, very interesting. I'm always impressed by the wealth of knowledge present on this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyL Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 (edited) M4rk, Yeah, sadly I have started adding those little notes to pics I post on the internet, as I got horribly burnt posting some stuff up, and it was copied, and published. However, I doubt the BM crowd would, but it's force of habit, and a lot of stuff on my Photobucket is marked this way, but if people want a copy of anything I'm more than willing to provide, but when I get caught out.. once bitten, you know... Edit: However, I'll remove the marks, so if anyone want copies... Yep, it's a Bull Terrier - Poopdeck, who had more flying hours in 10 Group than some pilots Edited August 7, 2009 by AndyL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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