andym Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Hi All, Can anyone give me any info on the Dewoitine 510 purchased in 1937 by the Air Ministry for investigation of the Hispano-Suiza 20mm cannon. Specifically did it have RAF roundels and serials, fuselage and underwing, or did it remain in French markings?? I have one pic of this aircraft but the details are not clear. Thanks, Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Hi All,Can anyone give me any info on the Dewoitine 510 purchased in 1937 by the Air Ministry for investigation of the Hispano-Suiza 20mm cannon. Specifically did it have RAF roundels and serials, fuselage and underwing, or did it remain in French markings?? I have one pic of this aircraft but the details are not clear. Thanks, Andy Andy Congratulations on finding 1 pic: that's 1 more than I've managed. It doesn't sound as if this aircraft actually did very much. Designated a D.510A (for Anglais), it was specifically purchased for evaluation of the 20mm engine mounted cannon. First flight 19 Aug 1936. Despite the cannon's being explicitly mentioned in the contract, the aircraft was delivered to A&AEE at Martlesham Heath without it. Pending delivery of the cannon, the aircraft was passed to Farnborough for evaluation. After a total of 51 hours 30 mins flying (including the delivery flight from Villacourblay) the radiator burst when the radiator shutter control failed. The aircraft was landed without further damage. Cue wrangles between the Air Ministry and Liore-et-Olivier on the whereabouts of the missing cannon and between the Air Ministry and RAE about repairs to the radiator. Result: it was not flown for all of 1937. Finally in June-Aug 1938 RAE pointed out to the Air Ministry that the moteur-canon could be tested on the Fairey Fantome instead, so there was no need to repair the D.510A whereupon it was relegated to resonance testing. Struck off charge 30 Oct 1938. SOC date from Air Britain Lxxxx register. Rest paraphrased from Air Enthusiast 1 pages 95-6 - they don't write aviation magazines like that any more. On the basis that the aircraft was built for the Air Ministry, I doubt whether it ever bore French markings. On the basis of absolutely no evidence whatsoever I would speculate that it would have been silver-doped with standard RAF markings of the period. But you're the man with the photo! Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 The only photo I have seen shows the RAF serial painted on the rudder, but in the French style. I can't tell if the roundels are French or RAF. IIRC, it was slightly different from the D510 in the heller kit around the nose - I have a vague memory that the 501 kit is closer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 The only photo I have seen shows the RAF serial painted on the rudder, but in the French style. I can't tell if the roundels are French or RAF.IIRC, it was slightly different from the D510 in the heller kit around the nose - I have a vague memory that the 501 kit is closer. Only suggestion of this I've spotted in the AE article is statement that the D.510A was originally laid down against a Turkish contract. D.510Ts apparently had a D.500-type undercarriage and a 2-blade prop. Not clear whether either feature applied to the D.510A. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 Not at home at the moment (IIRC I have two photos of it in various books, one a front 3/4 view and one a rear 3/4), but I seem to remember that the exhausts were different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 The account I've read stated the then-current procedures required the aircraft to be ordered separately from the weapons - as indeed was the practice within the UK industry for many years later. The airframe order went through readily enough, but ordnance people failed to place the required order for the cannon. Finger trouble at the British end. Given that this was the main point of buying the aircraft, it does seem rather pointless. However, presumably the details of the engine mount were available for study, and I believe that the decision had already been made to adopt the gun, so perhaps little of value was lost. The major problems the RAF found with the Hispano arose through lack of rigidity in the wing mountings, when the wings flexed when flying, and this would not have been discovered on the Dewoitine anyway. This rather contradicts the comment that the cannon was specifically mentioned in "the" contract. I thought my account was in Sinnott's book on Operational Requirements, but I can't find it in that or Wallace's book on British weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 Green and Swanborough's "The Complete Book of Fighters" has (page 180) a LHS rear 3/4 view of "the sole D.510A supplied for UK evaluation". No indication of where or when picture was taken but: - aircraft appears to be in overall silver - has upper wing roundels and rudder stripes but no fuselage roundel. Centre of roundel and forward rudder stripe are darkest colour. That and the large size of wing roundel suggest French markings to me. But I'll leave it to others to pontificate on how film type may have affected reproduction. - tailplane obscures where an RAF fuselage serial would have been - no sign of any markings whatsoever on rudder stripes. - difficult to tell from the angle but looks like a 3-blade prop. - exhausts look pretty standard. Could well be a pre-delivery shot in France so not sure how forward this takes us in answering the questions at the start of the strand. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 Qucik look last night found two copies of the same front 3/4 view - in the Airfile book on the Whirlwind (which confirms Graham's post about the cannon not being delivered with the airframe!) and in the Putnam book on Flight testing at Martlesham 1919-1939. Spats and 3 bladed prop. I'll see if I can scan one later. It's an RAE photo and looks like part of the usual walkround they shot, so FAST or the Science museum may have more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Gunthwaite Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 I have intended modeling this aircraft ever since I first read the article in AE (which I have since lost). Amongst the loft insulation is a couple of 1/72 scale Heller 510s and the 1/48 Fonderie Miniatures kit. Through the post yesterday arrived a 1/144 scale Mini MF resin kit. However I've got too much other stuff on the go at present to get one built in the near future. But any further references would be very welcome. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym Posted June 2, 2009 Author Share Posted June 2, 2009 (edited) Qucik look last night found two copies of the same front 3/4 view - in the Airfile book on the Whirlwind (which confirms Graham's post about the cannon not being delivered with the airframe!) and in the Putnam book on Flight testing at Martlesham 1919-1939.Spats and 3 bladed prop. I'll see if I can scan one later. It's an RAE photo and looks like part of the usual walkround they shot, so FAST or the Science museum may have more. That's the photo and book it's in that I have. Looks like French roundels to me. Thanks Andy Edited June 2, 2009 by andym Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 (edited) That's the photo and book it's in that I have. Looks like French roundels to me.Thanks Andy Which book? The one in the Martlesham book is much clearer than the one in the Whirlwind one. The centre of the roundel is the same shade as the leading colour on the rudder stripe and is the 'dark' colour on the shot, and although RAF aircraft had stopped using rudder stripes by then, I don't recall seeing an official British shot of the time where the blue was very dark and the red very light. French aircraft almost always show the blue as a light colour and the red as very dark as well. I wonder if this could be the same aircraft from the rear? Note the almost identical prop position. EDIT: I'm certain it is - look at the hangers, huts and telegraph poles in the background! http://www.aviastar.org/pictures/france/de...ine_d-510_1.jpg The other pic has the unusual exhaust collector on the starboard side as well. Edited June 2, 2009 by Dave Fleming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym Posted June 2, 2009 Author Share Posted June 2, 2009 Which book? The one in the Martlesham book is much clearer than the one in the Whirlwind one. Should have said: Whirlwind book. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 "the Airfile book on the Whirlwind" Can't quite visualise "the Airfile book". Was it part of a series? Can you give author and/or publisher and/or publication date pse? Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Can't quite visualise "the Airfile book". Was it part of a series? Can you give author and/or publisher and/or publication date pse?Nick My typing doesn't help!! it should say 'AIRLIFE' !! "Whirlwind the Westland Whirlwind Fighter" by Victor Bingham, Airlife Publishing 1987 (ulp, was it that long ago??) ISBN 1 85310 004 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Scanned and lightened the photo from the Putnum book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 The other pic has the unusual exhaust collector on the starboard side as well. That's the same photo as I described in post 7. Is that a white stripe/painted-out marking ahead of the tailplane or just the light? Were the different exhausts on either side of the fuselage a feature of all D.510s or just this one? Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym Posted June 3, 2009 Author Share Posted June 3, 2009 That's the same photo as I described in post 7. Is that a white stripe/painted-out marking ahead of the tailplane or just the light? Were the different exhausts on either side of the fuselage a feature of all D.510s or just this one?Nick It could possibly be a white stripe. as for the exhausts I'll have to dig out the Ailes De Gloire book I have on this type and see what it shows. As for the roundels and tail stripe it is possible that they could be RAF colours. I was looking at some Spitfire pics last night and the film type used made the red of the roundels very dark and the blue pale! So the jury is still out on that one. Perhaps the French put British roundels and tail stripes on it before they delivered it? Questions, questions? Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 I'm now deparately trying to remember where I saw the pic of the fin that showed the serial in small numbers (French style). The use of orthochromatic film at Martlesham between the wars was almost standard - most 'official' shots show very pale blues and very dark reds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Aero Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 That's the same photo as I described in post 7. Is that a white stripe/painted-out marking ahead of the tailplane or just the light? Were the different exhausts on either side of the fuselage a feature of all D.510s or just this one?Nick I suggest that the stbd exhaust has a cockpit heating shroud fitted. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousLL45 Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Which book? The one in the Martlesham book is much clearer than the one in the Whirlwind one.The centre of the roundel is the same shade as the leading colour on the rudder stripe and is the 'dark' colour on the shot, and although RAF aircraft had stopped using rudder stripes by then, I don't recall seeing an official British shot of the time where the blue was very dark and the red very light. French aircraft almost always show the blue as a light colour and the red as very dark as well. I wonder if this could be the same aircraft from the rear? Note the almost identical prop position. EDIT: I'm certain it is - look at the hangers, huts and telegraph poles in the background! http://www.aviastar.org/pictures/france/de...ine_d-510_1.jpg The other pic has the unusual exhaust collector on the starboard side as well. It could have the roundel colours reversed if the photos were taken with orthochromatic film Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 It could have the roundel colours reversed if the photos were taken with orthochromatic film yep, I would agree. On a related note, does anyone have any info on what the inside of the cockpit was like, or even what colour it would have been painted (if at all)? When I started builing this one years agto, I painted it RAF interior green, just because I didn't know any better!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousFO98 Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Hi Dave not sure about the colour. I think it could have been metallic green (?) which translates, afaik, to Hu117 there was some info on Ibernet HTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Hi Dave not sure about the colour. I think it could have been metallic green (?) which translates, afaik, to Hu117 there was some info on Ibernet HTH Ooooh! Ta! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Dug out the Heller kit, which gives the colour as 'Vert Nil', which my schoolboy French translates as 'Nile Green' (Like Eau du Nil) - they give the Humbrol equivalent of '90' in later editions (Which is Humbrol's Sky) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousFO98 Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Hi Dave apologies for the reference to metallic green- that was my Heller Stosser. the mention of Hu 90 sounded familiar as i now recall wondering if that could be correct for an interior. My instructions give Hu90. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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