Can I do a GB M4A3 ?

[scottypoos]

Any sherman experts out there?

I have the italeri 'us marines' sherman kit in my stash and it's asking to be built, well after i have completed my valentine anyway.

So.........in preparation............

well a couple of Q's

i) is the italeri 'us marines' sherman the m4a3?

ii) i have perhaps one picture of this in GB/Commonwealth? service?

iii) did they any M4A3 in GB units?

iv) if so what regiment/division/corps did they serve in?

v) has anyone got any pictures or know of any site with the m4a3 in GB service they could share with me?

Edited April 30, 2009 by scottypoos

[Seahawk]

Any sherman experts out there?

I have the italeri 'us marines' sherman kit in my stash and it's asking to be built, well after i have completed my valentine anyway.

So.........in preparation............

well a couple of Q's

i) is the italeri 'us marines' sherman the m4a3?

ii) i have perhaps one picture of this in GB/Commonwealth? service?

iii) did they any M4A3 in GB units?

iv) if so what regiment/division/corps did they serve in?

v) has anyone got any pictures or know of any site with the m4a3 in GB service they could share with me?

Think that the answer to the question in your title is, for all practical purposes, no. The M4A3 was the US Army's preferred variant and they didn't tend to let anyone else get their hands on them. There's a picture of a Sherman IVc (ie an M4A3 with British 17 pdr gun) in Chamberlain and Ellis' "British and American Tanks of WW2" (photo 345) but I'd reckon that's a trial vehicle for the programme to produce 17 pdr conversions of US M4A3s for US use.

However there's a bit in the Concord book "British Sherman Tanks" (p 4) that says that between 11 May 1944 and 2 May 1945 1 Armoured Replacement Group of 15 Army Group received 33 Sherman IVs "ex Units and Formations", suggesting that they may have been issued to units. Personally I'd suspect a transcription error between III (M4A2, v common) and IV. The author sounds a bit doubtful, given the absence of other references.

But all may not be lost. The US Army's line extended not only to overseas armies but also to the USMC, who therefore mostly used M4A2s, which may be what Italeri have depicted. You can identify the M4A2 by the 2 hatches with grills in them behind the turret. But beware it's not a late M4A2 with the 47 degree hull front (ie the drivers' hatches don't project from the glacis plate): not sure that any of these were supplied to the British.

All of which ramble says your chances of being able to build your kit accurately as a British one are not good.

NIck

[scottypoos]

well..........

in ospreys vanguard 15 'sherman in british service' on p16 there is a picture of a sherman where the hatches do not protude into the front glacis, (which i automatcally thought would be an M4A3 (SHERMAN IV) not being an expert on M4's i thought i'd ask for some advice.)but has what looks like a 105mm gun and a strange looking mantlet. the caption says its a sherman IB of 9th lancers.

right! now i'm totally confused.......

which m4's had the 47 degree front glacis withour the protruding hatches ???????

[Red Dragon]

The link below should tell you what you need to know about the Italeri "US Marines" Sherman, the UK had a few M4A3's for trials but there is no real evidence to show they saw active service.

Cheers

Phil

http://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/revi...leri/it6389.htm

Sherman IB would be a late hull M4 with 105mm Howitzer.

Phil

well..........

in ospreys vanguard 15 'sherman in british service' on p16 there is a picture of a sherman where the hatches do not protude into the front glacis, (which i automatcally thought would be an M4A3 (SHERMAN IV) not being an expert on M4's i thought i'd ask for some advice.)but has what looks like a 105mm gun and a strange looking mantlet. the caption says its a sherman IB of 9th lancers.

right! now i'm totally confused.......

which m4's had the 47 degree front glacis withour the protruding hatches ???????

[scottypoos]

here are the 2 pix i have, that have started me asking the questions

can i use the italeri usmc m4 (is the italeri usmc m4 an a3? are the pictures below of a3's ?)

the pic below is from concord's britsh armour in italy and sicilly

the pic below is from osprey vanguard 15 p16

Edited May 2, 2009 by scottypoos

[Red Dragon]

Both photos show M4 105mm Vehicles (Sherman IB in Brit speak) the M4 and M4A3 are very different tanks, the hull of the late M4 and M4A3 might look the same from the front but there are lots of differences, the most obvious to the eye being the engine deck. If you really wanted to build a Brit Sherman from the Italeri kit you are out of luck. On the bright side there are a lot of interesting U.S. vehicles that can be built.

Cheers

Phil

here are the 2 pix i have, that have started me asking the questions

can i use the italeri usmc m4 (is the italeri usmc m4 an a3? are the pictures below of a3's ?)

the pic below is from concord's britsh armour in italy and sicilly

the pic below is from osprey vanguard 15 p16

[AntPhillips]

I'm by no means a Sherman expert but I do have a case of Shermaholic Syndrome, the nomenclature of British Shermans is pretty simple once you know the way it works:

US Type No - British Mk No. - Hull Type - Engine Type

M4 - Sherman Mk.I - Welded Hull, 56º Glacis, Small Hatches (with or without Direct Vision visors) - Continental Radial engine

M4 Composite - Sherman Hybrid Mk.1 - Cast hull front with welded rear, 47º Glacis, Large Hatches (mostly) - Continental Radial engine

M4A1 - Sherman Mk II - Cast Hull, early versions were small hatches with or without DV visors, 56º glacis, later versions were large hatch, 47º glacis with wet stowage - Continental Radial engine.

M4A2 - Sherman Mk III - Welded Hull, 56º Glacis, Small Hatches (with or without Direct Vision visors) - Diesel (GM)

M4A3 - Sherman Mk IV (a very elusive type around which there is a lot of doubt and much speculation) - Petrol (Ford)

M4A4 - Sherman Mk V Welded Hull, 56º Glacis, Small Hatches (with or without Direct Vision visors) - Petrol (Chrysler Multibank)

In addition to this the Mk. No could be suffixed with an additional letter to denote a main gun different to the regular 75mm gun

75 mm - No suffix

76 mm - Suffix A

105 mm howitzer - Suffix B

17 Pdr - Suffix C

so a US M4A1 76(W) would be a British Sherman Mk IIA & an M4A4 17Pdr would be a Sherman Mk. VC

If the tank was fitted with HVSS suspension it would be further suffixed with a Y although the British only received a small number of these mostly fitted with the 105 MM howitzer late in the war, hence the Sherman Mk. 1BY

The Italeri USMC Sherman kit is basically an M4A3, but it does give you an extra engine deck for an M4A2 but doesn't give you the corresponding hull rear plate or mention changing the angle of the rear hull plate, your better off regarding the kit as a pure M4A3 with 47º glacis, large hatch with wet ammo. stowage, that tends to limit you to building as a US Army or a USMC M4A3, it is one of the only Sherman kits that give you the wading trunks although the fittings are only representative of the M4A3, but the upper halves can be used elsewhere if you can scratch the lower areas.

If you want a British Sherman your better off starting with one of the newer Dragon M4A1 or M4A2 releases or at the cheaper end of the market update a Tamiya M4 using Accurate Armour or Formations update sets.

Sorry if this post goes on a bit, but I guess thats why Shermans are such an interesting subject there are infinite varieties of them, even if you only model one particular nation or 1 theatre of operations.

Hope this helps

Ant

Edited May 3, 2009 by AntPhillips

[scottypoos]

well,

thanks guy's for all your info.

if i cant do a british sherman with this kit (usmc italeri kit i have), can i trade this for a sherman either, one that i can make the sherman in the above pictures or the sherman ii cast hull by italeri with anyone?

i've put a thread in the trade forum if anyones interested.

can put pix up there if you need to see the condition.

again cheers for all info.

scott.

Edited May 4, 2009 by scottypoos

[scottypoos]

thanks, ant

the chaps @ militarymodelling.com have been v.helpful as well.

ant, are you a member of armorama as well?, if so you may have helped me with british cruiser information a couple of years back(the project is still on hold(i'm saving up for the bronco cruiser kit)

any way.......here's some more info about shermies for those that are interested (supplied by Al & Richard at the militarymodelling.com site.)

Richard Taylor :-

With Shermans it's all about different engines. With the exception of the M4A1(MK2) Which is easily identified by its one piece cast upper hull; the rounded appearence giving it the nickname 'turtleback' The A2(MK3), A3(MK4) and A4(MK5) all had different engines. They all look very similar from the front and sides and it's only if you get a pic of the engine deck or the rear, you can spot the difference.

The hybrid upper hull was a mixture of a one piece cast front with welded sides and top used on the revamped M4

Just about the time of the Normandy invasion, the Americans were changing the hull front (glacis plate) from 63degree angle to 47degrees which not only speeded up production but gave the driver and assistant driver larger hatches. This type only started to make an appearance after the Normandy battles. As did the longer 76mm gun with the new turrets..

Usual way of identifying them is by who used them. Very generally speaking and there are exceptions, The American army and the French used M4s,A1s and A3s The US marine corp used A2s and A3s

British and Commonwealth forces were mainly supplied with A2s(MK3) and A4s(MK5) although they did receive some M4s(MK1) and some A1s(MK2) Confusing I bet.

Al Bowie :-

Where does one begin � North Africa would be a good start.

The British received M4A1 (II) and M4A2 (III) Shermans. These are the only Shermans to serve in Action in North Africa/Tunisia.

The initial vehicle configurations were Direct Vison with M3 VVSS suspension. The M4A2s delivered evolved to later be supplied with M4 VVSS suspension and can be seen with both 3 piece nose and the early one piece nose. 1st Army (Tunisia) got mainly the mid production M4A2 which had the56 deg hull with cast drivers hoods. The welded Hood 56 deg hull also appeared in 8th Army (4AB) in time for Sicily so a mix of DV, Cast and Welded Hood A2�s (with all the features including some with M3 suspension) were in service for Sicily alongside a handful of surviving M4A1�s with M3 suspension.

For Italy the M4A2 and the M4A1 werethe dominant types but a handful of M4 (Welded and Hybrid plus Late 105�s) were used. The M4A1 75mm was primarily of the mid production type with M34A1 mantlets and M4 suspension no DV. These were later supplanted by the M4A1 76 which served alongside the Firefly and 105 M4. Some Churchill units had Shermans issued and these appear to be standard M4 75 (Including at least 1 Hybrid) and M4A2 75. The M4A2�s remained in the independent AB�s including as DD variants for the ops in the North.

NWE is a different scenario with the M4A4 being delivered in Qty and formations changing types in the lead up to Normandy.

The M4A4 had M4 VVSS and hull types had DV and the wide hood type but ALL had three piece noses. Turrets were typically all Low bustle with pistol ports and the mantlets could be M34 (Narrow) &M34A1 (Wide). The M4A4 was issued to 11 AD and Guards AD. Most were fitted with Applique kits

The M4 was confined to two BDEs initially (33 AB & 4 AB). They were welded 56 hull types with cast hood and most seem to have had the late nose with a mix of Mid and Late LB turret types. Hybrids almost always had the Mid LB turret with no loaders hatch and no pistol port but had cast in cheek. The Welded M4�s (33 AB) had Applique as did the Hybrids. As the Hybrids had reinforced turret cheeks they rarely are seen with Cheek Applique. 4 AB had Hybrids but occasional welded M4�s show up. In the main they had M4A1 of Mid to late 75 types. They had Mid LB turrets as per the Hybrids but some had pistol ports whilst a lot had the early High Bustle turret with loaders hatch and pistol port but not the all round cupola. These were confined to 4 AB.

The M4A2�s were a mix of all types and at least one with the early M3 Suspension served in Normandy. They were confined to 27AB and 8 AB and were supplemented with Hybrids when supplies ran short. 27 Ab was disbanded in Aug 44 and some of the regts used to replace others in 33 and 8AB.

Fireflies � The fireflies were only built on M4 (welded and Hybrid) and M4A4 hulls. The DV and hooded M4A4 were converted and the same goes for the Welded 1c with some DV vehicles being converted but fielding Applique kits the same as the M4A4�s.

The Far East � Almost uniquely M4A4

Looking at your sheet I see a few clarifications/correction need to be made.

GB 1 � The M4 rear hull evolved and the very late Hulls had no cutout but were Flush across the whole width. (Italy and NEW only)

GB II � Same comment about the rear hull cutout (particularly on the 76 vesions

GB III � Direct vison port on Early hulls � 56 deg glacis, 47 deg glacis never served operationally with Brits only USMC and USSR. The rear deck has two hatches like the M4A3 but narrower.

GB V � Direct vision ports on early models � longer hull and spaced running gear.

Early M4A1 and2 in Brit service had M3 VVSS almost exclusively on DV hulls Though M4 VVSS also on A2 DV hulls

Mid Production tended to have M4 HVSS with horizontal return roller support brackets

Late production had M4 VVSS with upswept arms and some (only M4105 in Brit Service and M4a3 and M4 105 in US service) had HVSS and 23� track

Nose types are early three piece (all M4A4, M4A1 DV), Round Cast (M4A2 DV, M4A2 and early/mid M4A1 (not DV). Late Sharp cast � M4 only.

Mantlets � the M34 came in Narrow, Narrow with Shields either side and parralell to the barrel andwith a welded extension to the right side (looking forward over the gunners telescope) , the M34A1 is the wide mantlet with different rotor shield under it.

The 105 mm Mantlet is unique as is the T23 Turret Mantlet for 76mm M4A1.

Cupolas � most Brit Shermans had the split hatch Cupola but some later models had the US All round Vision cupola (late Hybrids (All converted to Fireflies), M4 105 and late M4A1 76). The M4A1 76 was originally an early production model with A US vision cupola and a split hatch cupola for the loader. The later models had a simpler hatch for the loader.

Loaders hatches � later war feature usually confined to Hybrids and M4A1 with High Bustle turrets. All fireflies had one added although those on HB turreted Firefly hybrids had the standard one.

Hoods � the 56 deg hull front had a few different types of Hoods and these are great ID features if you know what you are looking for. The wider hood with undercuts was ONLY on M4A4 in Brit service � coupled with a three piece nose it is fairly certain to be a V.

The cast hoods were similar on the M4 and M4A2 (almost identical like the DV�s before them) with slightly different Antenna posts on the glacis left.

Hybrids are identified from large hatch M4A1 hulls by a small bumb in the middle of the glacs and squared shoulders whilst the A1 is