Eduard RN Hellcats

[Calum]

After getting caught out with a few errors in instructions/decals for my current build I figured I'd ask if there is anything in the Eduard Hellcats to watch out for. I'm going to do the aircraft from HMS emperor wiht the red nose and invasions stripes.

Specifically are the colour call outs correct, and is there anything else I should know.

I'm not interested in the cowl shape, it's good enough for me.

Thanks in advance

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

Hi Calum - the model builds very well. Only thing to watch for is that the wheels are too narrow in cross section for all but the earliest of -3 cats. I used some plastic card to thicken them out - problem solved.

The PE engine ignition harness is a bit flimsy in my opinion. I replaced with fine copper wire, buts thats just personal choice.

The cockpit colour on hellcats may be Grumman green - a darker green than chromate green ( more like US medium green it seems). But chromate green with a dark weathering wash will probably do the job !

Enjoy the model - they are lovely kits.

Jonners

[Calum]

Thanks Jonners, appreciate the tips

[tonyot]

Hiya Calum,

The kits seem superb, however since you are building one in the the HMS Emperor markings all I can say is that you should check your references and have a photo of the aircraft you are building to hand as some of these Hellcats had a yellow outline to the red letters and some of these were quiet fancily painted on too!

One of these aircraft was recovered from the sea in the 1970`s or 80`s off Spain, near Gibraltar (I think it was eventually scrapped though...but I hope it has survived somewhere?) and in the colour photo that I`ve seen of this aircraft on the beach after it was recovered it still had its invasion stripes applied, the paint was in very good nick and the fancily painted codes definately had yellow outlines.

I think the Dutch Decals `Dutchies at War' monograph and decal sheet package touches upon this but still does not get the decals exactly right..I`ll try and dig out a copy of the photo from some magazine cuttings!

Also, most, if not all FAA Hellcats which carried rocket had rocket rails fitted (which were themselves attached to a large blast shield), instead of the zero zero options in the kit which the US Navy used, although some very late FAA Hellcats may have been able to use these, I`m not sure!

Hope this doesn`t pee on your fire a bit...but you did ask!...Like I said just check a photo of the aircraft you are building.

Cheers

Tony O

[Steven Eisenman]

Eduard's Hellcat is a lovely model with three issues as far as I'm concerned.

1. Wheels need to be replace3d with wider tires with tread. making them wider only fixes part of the problem.

2. Prop hub is a bit blobby and could stand being replaced with Ultracast or Obscureco H-S prop.

3. Unless you are showing it as an aircraft without fuel and armament, the legs need to be shortened.

As for color of interior, the darker green would be confined to the first 100 aircraft that had bronze green pits.

F6F-3 Hellcat. Cockpit: The first 100 F6F-3s almost certainly had Bronze Green cockpit interiors. The rest had FS 34151 cockpits. The engine cowling and the fuselage interior including the area behind the cockpit where the small windows are located was Light Gray FS 36440 (Grumman Gray). Remember on all of these a/c the general rule is that the wheel bays, landing gear struts, wheel centers, landing flap bays, etc. are the under surface color. The area ahead of the rear main spar in the wheel bay was interior green. This area was unmasked and so may have had some significant white over spray. Interior Green should be the dominant color.

F6F-5 Hellcat. Cockpit: FS 34151. Later a/c with BuNo’s higher than about 80000 had the interior above the consoles in black Any F6F with the rear windows will have the rear fuselage in Light Gray. (Grumman Gray Take note: those building David McCambell's Minsi III.) The inside of the engine cowling could be Light Gray, Interior Green, or Zinc Chromate Yellow FS 33481, respectively according to production batch. Later F6F-5’s may have had a Flat Black cowling interior ahead of the baffle seal between the front and rear cylinder banks. This was most likely done at overhaul. The remainder was Interior Green. The inside of the fuselage on the F6F-5 without the windows would normally be FS 33481 ZCY. Very late a/c with BuNo’s in the 94000, range had Interior Green fuselage interiors and black upper cockpits. This is exactly according to the USN specifications at the time. All other areas of the airframe that were exposed to weather were painted Glossy Dark Sea Blue, ANA 623. Remember on all of these a/c the general rule is that the wheel bays, landing gear struts, wheel centers, landing flap bays, etc. are the under surface color. There should be no Interior Green visible on the exterior of any factory finished F6F-5. No F6F-5 aircraft were factory finished in the tri-color paint scheme. Note: ANA 623 is not FS 15042. FS 15042 is an FS 595 color that is close too, but not the same as ANA 623 color used during WWII. Although the variation is very slight they are different.

[tonyot]

Hello Calum,

Sorry its taken a while but it took ages to find the stuff, scan if and get it on Photobucket!!!

Here are a couple of photos of the Hellcat which was fished out of the sea off Spain in 1984, it was JV111, EP from 800 NAS aboard HMS Emperor and flown by Dutchman Charlie Poublon, who thankfully survived his dunking.

As you can see the red codes are surrounded by yellow and quite ornate, but they are also different on either side, which is something that Dutch Decals (Which is still an excellent sheet and the best out there for an 800NAS Hellcat) have missed!

Dutch decals have the right hand side perfect, but the left hand side has the tips of the E splayed out above and below, not just below as on the other side and the P looks likr it may be rounded on the right, but squared off on the left!

If you are building the well known Hellcat with partial invasion stripes off the South of France, this looks to have yellow outlines too and at least the top E has a splayed out edge!

Anyway, here are some piccies of the Hellcat which was dredged out of the sea, plus the instructions from the Dutch decals sheet with some notes of my own pencilled on...which were for my own info for when I use the decals!

Look how the white is missing from the bottom of the fuselage invasion stripes, were they applied like that or is it just weathering from being in the sea?

Anyway I hope this helps,

All the best

Tony O

Edited April 27, 2009 by tonyot

[Steven Eisenman]

Great picture. Not sure whose notes are on the profile, but the 45° on the P looks right, rather than rounded. The B&W shows it quite well.

If that was distemper white, it sure held up well, especially the last rear stripe.

[tonyot]

Great picture. Not sure whose notes are on the profile, but the 45° on the P looks right, rather than rounded. The B&W shows it quite well.

If that was distemper white, it sure held up well, especially the last rear stripe.

Hiya Steve,

The notes are mine mate and having seen the photos blown up to this size for the first time I`m inclined to agree with you about the P...I do apologise for that old bean! ...But do they look more rounded on the bottom side of the loop in the P than the top?

Actually I was just going to edit the post, after dealing with an upset 9 yer old (yes there is a life outside modelling you know folks!) when I noticed you`d beaten me to it so I didn`t want to make you look silly by having it in the text...cos we don`t like making people look silly on Britmodeller do we!!!!

Cheers mate

Tony

Edited April 27, 2009 by tonyot

[tonyot]

Hiya Calum,

Me again.......sorry but I forgot to add this photo to show what the rocket rails look like on a British Hellcat, even on the later ones such as this....I wish someone would do a conversion set for them...I`ve tried convincing a few places but to no avail!!!

The Hellcat is JX785, K7A and is another one covered by the excellent Dutch Decal sheet and monograph, and the photo is from an excellent book called `Dutchies in de Fleet Air Arm' which has many more photos like this! It is written in Dutch which is a pity as there must be some really useful info in there which I just cannot understand, but I bought mine for the photos alone, by mail order from the Aviation Book Shop in Royal Tunbridge Wells...must get the Royal bit right, thats where my mother n law comes from!

Cheers

Tony O

[iang]

Nice photo Tony.

FAA Hellcats were fitted with zero length rocket rails. Here's a photo of a line-up of 800 squadron Hellcats on Emperor. The lead aircraft is a Hellcat II NF JZ999 C3-H, shortly after the end of WW2 (10.9.45).

However, Hellcats were rarely fitted with rockets on Fleet Carriers. Only 4 Hellcat RP sorties were flown during the whole of Operation Iceberg, compared with 43 Firefly RP sorties.

[Seahawk]

However, Hellcats were rarely fitted with rockets on Fleet Carriers. Only 4 Hellcat RP sorties were flown during the whole of Operation Iceberg, compared with 43 Firefly RP sorties.

Late Hellcats, Wildcats, Avengers and probably Corsairs supplied to the FAA would all have been built with zero-length rocket stubs (with a bit of digging I could come up with roughly the serial no for each where they started being fitted) and the stubs are apparent in several shots like this one.

But it's my working hypothesis (because I've never seen the slightest hint to the contrary) that the FAA, not even the British Pacific Fleet, did not use US 5" HVAR rockets. Would be interested if anyone can prove me wrong.

Nick

[Seahawk]

Hiya Calum,

Me again.......sorry but I forgot to add this photo to show what the rocket rails look like on a British Hellcat, even on the later ones such as this....I wish someone would do a conversion set for them...I`ve tried convincing a few places but to no avail!!!

Tony O

Tony

Sounds like my quest to try and get someone to do a set of yellow codes numbers and letters!

I've had the same problem. Strikes me that in the One True Scale there's a useful blast plate in the old Frog Firefly kit (for robbing or use as a pattern) to which you could rockets and rails from, say, an Airfix Mosquito or Hasegawa Beaufighter.

But thanks for the best close-up I've seen of British-style FAA Hellcat rocket rails.

Nick

[tonyot]

Tony

Sounds like my quest to try and get someone to do a set of yellow codes numbers and letters!

I've had the same problem. Strikes me that in the One True Scale there's a useful blast plate in the old Frog Firefly kit (for robbing or use as a pattern) to which you could rockets and rails from, say, an Airfix Mosquito or Hasegawa Beaufighter.

But thanks for the best close-up I've seen of British-style FAA Hellcat rocket rails.

Nick

Hiya Nick,

Funny that because I`ve been at everybody I can think of too, to get some FAA Yellow codes, with maybe some Red and White ones as well, but the Yellow ones would do fine! Same as you...blank wall though!.......Thanks for the heads up re the Frog Firefly...never thought of those but the rails may be a bit thick............I can see its going to be plastic card and some late style rails from an Airfix Mossie for 1/48th scale!

Glad you liked the photos, they are pretty good aren`t they...the book is very impressive.

All the best

Tony O

[Steven Eisenman]

Tony,

Hellcat with rockets.

Start with the old Monogram Hurricanr plates and go from there.

BTW are the codes Yellow on that 'cat.

[Calum]

Thanks all, But especially Tony for the scans . .... I really wanted to build this straight from the box, thanks guys...

Might do something about the wheels and oleos now. Are there after market wheels out there? Oleo's should be an easy fix, any idea on how much to remove Steve?

Was just planning on using the kit decals (A/C L JV 131) . Will probably do so as I don't have that much emotional stock invested in the Hellcat

I wasn't going to bother with any bombs, rockets etc.

Another question, did 800 Sqn fly at D day? Was considering entering it in my clubs D Day comp

[Steven Eisenman]

Remove the section between red and blue lines.

Edited April 28, 2009 by Steven Eisenman

[ollieholmes]

This thread is of great interest to me as well. I have the duo box im my stash. I will be using the Aeromaster sheet rather than the kit markings.

[tonyot]

Tony,

Hellcat with rockets.

Start with the old Monogram Hurricanr plates and go from there.

BTW are the codes Yellow on that 'cat.

Hiya Steve,

Thats a good idea (but I think I let my son build my last Monogram Hurricane a few years ago and its done its bit as a play thing abut has now gone in the bin!), I was thinking of using the plates from the Tamiya Beaufighter too, the codes for the Hellcat with the rockets fitted are actually white, as it was an operational unit which was working up and not a second line unit.

As far as I know yellow was `supposed' to be for second line units only...but I know that was not always the case...I`ll e mail you with the side view artwork from the Dutchies in the FAA book.

Thanks for info re the u/c legs too...that will come in handy and thanks to Nick for the photo of the 800 NAS Hellcats with zero zero stubs....I was aware that many later Hellcats, Corsairs and Wildcats had them fitted but have never heard of them being used on operational units and I`d totally forgotten about that photo!!!!

All the best

Tony O

[Steven Eisenman]

I plan on doing the H'cat with rockets (blast full rail and blast plate), so thanks for the confirm on white. Whay is the full code, would it be K (or R) *7P?

Some other rocket carrying Cats..

Edited April 28, 2009 by Steven Eisenman

[Seahawk]

... thanks to Nick for the photo of the 800 NAS Hellcats with zero zero stubs.

Tony O

Wouldn't like to steal another man's thunder. The 800 Sq photo was posted by Ian G: I just commented on it.

Looks as if my money is still safe re FAA not using HVARs.

Nick

[iang]

I've never seen a photo of an FAA Hellcat with HVARs. However, I also don't recall seeing a photo of an FAA Avenger or Barracuda with US ordnance, although there is written documentation of the use of 1,600lb US bombs from mid-1944. When I was looking for evidence of US ordnance for FAA aircraft, I didn't include HVARs in my search - so it is possible that there is written documentation on the use of these too. Moreover, photos of BPF Hellcats on Indomitable are not that common and those on Formidable during operations off Japan are exceedingly rare.

[Seahawk]

I've never seen a photo of an FAA Hellcat with HVARs. However, I also don't recall seeing a photo of an FAA Avenger or Barracuda with US ordnance, although there is written documentation of the use of 1,600lb US bombs from mid-1944. When I was looking for evidence of US ordnance for FAA aircraft, I didn't include HVARs in my search - so it is possible that there is written documentation on the use of these too. Moreover, photos of BPF Hellcats on Indomitable are not that common and those on Formidable during operations off Japan are exceedingly rare.

Yes, I think I recall reading somewhere (Sweetman: "Tirpitz - Hunting The Beast"?) that the 1,600lb AP bombs used on the Tirpitz raids were US-made.

Your words on FAA not using generally US ordnance agree with David Hobbs' very categorical answer when I asked him, on a visit to the FAA Museum photo archive, whether the BPF used US ordnance. Looks like I'll need to change the weapons on Hammy Gray's Corsair - and not use the rather nice bombload in the Italeri Avenger kit.

Nick

[tonyot]

Hiya Folks,

I must admit that I always use British made bombs on myFAA Models of US built types and used British bombs on my model of Hammy Grays Corsair whic was in Model Aircraft Monthly a few years ago. I think that there was a special adapter made up which fitted into US bomb racks which then held British bombs...from what scant info I`ve found in photos it looks like a Swordfish/Albacore/Roc etc style bomb rack but smaller and was also used on RAF Thunderbolts in SEAC too?

The bombs used by Barracuda`s were definately US Armour (or should that be Armor) Piercing bombs for which a conversion kit was needed to adapt then to use a belly mounted rack.

I hope that this helps!!!

Tony O

Edited April 28, 2009 by tonyot

[Steven Eisenman]

and the 1,600 lb. armor piercer could be found in the A-M Avenger kit or the ordnance kit.

I have seen both RAF (e.g. P-47) and FAA aircraft (ie. Avenger) carry what appeared to be US 500 pounders. This seemd to be a "Pacific" thing.

[Calum]

Remove the section between red and blue lines.

Thanks MD. appreciate it.