Invasion Stripes

[wally7506]

Invasion stripes.

They put 'em on June 3-5 '44 in anticipation for the invasion.

I see that as early as 4 July the 2nd TAF started takin' 'em off the top.

When were the Invasion stripes OFFICIALLY changed to bottoms only for the rest of the RAF?

I want to build a 3 Sqn Tempest from 14 July 1944 and I'm wondering if the ADGB retained full invasion stripes or not.

TIA

[Edgar]

The order specified that the wing markings should be removed between 25-8-44, and 10-9-44, with fuselage marking to remain. ADGB Tempests might not have worn the stripes (Chris Thomas is your best authority on that); according to the old Camouflage & Markings series anti-Diver Tempests had their yellow l/e stripes removed, so would they have painted the black/white stripes?

Edgar

[wally7506]

The order specified that the wing markings should be removed between 25-8-44, and 10-9-44, with fuselage marking to remain. ADGB Tempests might not have worn the stripes (Chris Thomas is your best authority on that); according to the old Camouflage & Markings series anti-Diver Tempests had their yellow l/e stripes removed, so would they have painted the black/white stripes?

Edgar

There's several pictures of 150 Wg (mainly 3 Sqn and 486 Sqn Tempests) with full invasion stripes.

I understand the order for 25-8-44 to mean the underside fuselage markings to remain while the underside wing stripes were removed.

What I'm getting at is the decision and time frame to remove the upper invasion stripes (upper wings and upper half of the fuselage). I'm wondering if 2 TAF (being on the continent and all that came with it) had their topside invasion stripes removed before the rest of the RAF.

[Julien]

What ever you do just remember to get them straight, just like these guys!

Julien

[alex]

What ever you do just remember to get them straight, just like these guys!

Julien

I love this picture.

Alex

[keith in the uk]

Considering they are painting free hand its not that bad , You can see the guy on the wing thinking to him self IM GONNA INVENT MASKING TAPE

[Steven Eisenman]

On 19 August the wing-top stripes were ordered removed between 25 August and 10 September. On 6 December, all the stripes were ordered removed on 1 January - though there was some further delay. The delay was due to complaints from the USN as they needed IFF markings as aircraft flew back and forth across the Chanel. The newly introduce A-26 Invader had them on the longest as its "shape' was new to most everyone.

As for that picture, two things: First, it appears the stripes are being "repainted" rather than newly applied. Secondly, picture like that should not be used as representative of USAAF fighter aircraft, as USAAF marking were applied in a much more "precise" manner.

[timbo33]

As for that picture...... it appears the stripes are being "repainted" rather than newly applied....

A bit of an assumption isn't it Steven? It's fairly common knowledge that RAF Invasion stripes were mostly hand-painted and, despite instructions to the contrary, often obliterating Squadron codes and serials. As each squadron interpreted and implemented the orders differently, and as the stripes would only have been required for 6-8 weeks it's surely more likely that the bods in the picture are painting the stripes for the first time?

[Steven Eisenman]

Well based on the fact that the white stripe on the wing root is very dirty and nearly obscured, I'd say they were doing a fresh coat of paint. Someone perhaps felt that they were not distinct enough.

Not an assumption, but a working hypothesis based on observation.

[Edgar]

Considering that the paint, very often, was distemper, and the weather, just after D-day, was pretty foul, I'd say that a repaint could be a distinct possibility. There's also a hint of some decidedly non-camouflage paint on the bit of the tailplane that's visible.

Edgar

[Colin S-K]

Steven,

Can but agree that the stripes were being repainted, your logic is undeniable, and as to USAAF, well, we know, that all they did, was more, 'precise', a tradition that has held true to this day......

Ah well, it's an interesting subject.......

Colin

[Chris Thomas]

There's several pictures of 150 Wg (mainly 3 Sqn and 486 Sqn Tempests) with full invasion stripes.

I understand the order for 25-8-44 to mean the underside fuselage markings to remain while the underside wing stripes were removed.

What I'm getting at is the decision and time frame to remove the upper invasion stripes (upper wings and upper half of the fuselage). I'm wondering if 2 TAF (being on the continent and all that came with it) had their topside invasion stripes removed before the rest of the RAF.

I've not seen any documentation that ordered removal or reduction of stripes from ADGB aircraft - but then I have not specifically searched for it. Certainly some 2nd TAF aircraft had the stripes removed from the upper surfaces of wings and fuselage prior to the signal of 6 July which seems the first documentation on the subject. No photos of 150 Wing Tempests dateable as July or August 1944 have yet come to light, so the timescale for removal on these aircraft remains an enigma.

The removal of yellow LE edge stripes from aircraft engaged in anti-Diver operations, mentioned by Edgar, was indeed ordered, but not until 17 August 44. The reason for this order was that inspection of aircraft engaged in this work showed that service-applied yellow LE stripes were cracking and peeling - losing a few vital knots on laminar flow wings. However Tempests by this time had factory-applied yellow LE stripes (as did Typhoons) so the problem would not have existed. I have not seen any photos of Tempests without the yellow stripes - but then there is a dearth of photos as mentioned earlier. Certainly the Tempests used by 501 - the last squadron engaged on ant-Diver ops, still had yellow LE stripes in October 44. Don't know what the situation was for Spits and Mustangs.

CT

[Steven Eisenman]

Colin;

The issue of "fancier" stripes on USAAF aircraft, as compared to RAF has come up any number of times. One of the factors seems not only to have been the a combination of the number of ground crewmen assigned to a given USAAF aircraft, but also the fact that they were dedicated to a particular aircraft. Not uncommon to see the ground crew's names on a given aircraft.

IIRC, RAF ground crews were not aircraft specific.

[MilneBay]

What ever you do just remember to get them straight, just like these guys!

Julien

That pic is odd to me - the codes are either DP which was a Typhoon Squadron (no Spitfires), or DR which seems to refer to 1555 Flight which I cannot find out anything about except it flew Hurricane IVs. So perhaps this is an aircraft on non-combat duties. But then I could be wrong - is there any enlightenment out there?

Edited April 27, 2009 by MilneBay

[Chris Thomas]

That pic is odd to me - the codes are either DP which was a Typhoon Squadron (no Spitfires), or DR which seems to refer to 1555 Flight which I cannot find out anything about except it flew Hurricane IVs. So perhaps this is an aircraft on non-combat duties. But then I could be wrong - is there any enlightenment out there?

Yes there is. The codes are 'DB' - 411 Sqn RCAF.

[Chris Thomas]

Colin;

The issue of "fancier" stripes on USAAF aircraft, as compared to RAF has come up any number of times. One of the factors seems not only to have been the a combination of the number of ground crewmen assigned to a given USAAF aircraft, but also the fact that they were dedicated to a particular aircraft. Not uncommon to see the ground crew's names on a given aircraft.

IIRC, RAF ground crews were not aircraft specific.

They may not have had their names painted on but an airframe and an engine 'erk' was usually allocated to each specific aitrcraft.

[Chris Thomas]

That pic is odd to me - the codes are either DP which was a Typhoon Squadron (no Spitfires), or DR which seems to refer to 1555 Flight which I cannot find out anything about except it flew Hurricane IVs. So perhaps this is an aircraft on non-combat duties. But then I could be wrong - is there any enlightenment out there?

Yes there is. The codes are 'DB' - 411 Sqn RCAF.

[Edgar]

They may not have had their names painted on but an airframe and an engine 'erk' was usually allocated to each specific aitrcraft.

I worked, for a time, with an ex-609 Squadron airframe fitter, and he said that he and his mate were permanently assigned to PR-A. "We knew it as the prat-plane," he said.

Edgar

[tonyot]

Hiya Folks,

Regarding the differences in stripes between the USAAF and RAF aircraft, in my own experience, which is admittedly a lot more recent the Americans probably would have said to the groundcrews..."right, the job for today is to paint some goddam stripes on our goddam planes" so they would have got on with the job in hand during the working day with a break here and there for the Do-nut van.....

.....Whereas the British lads would probably have been working all day already and were just about to knock off and go to the cookhouse when some pratt of a Pilot Officer from HQ turned up in his little Austin `Tilly' and said" Oh yes chaps....glad I caught you before you go.....don`t go anywhere.....as we need some lovely black and white stripes painting on all the aircraft and you cannot finish work until its done......the sooner its done the sooner you eat......toodle pip", before he went off to the mess for `tiffin'................. leaving the British `erks' a bit pee`ed off to say the least about having to do this and they probably had to do it in the dark, no doubt in the rain too!!!

Or knowing the British they would have even gone one better by scouring the billets for people to do the job after everybody had already knocked off...so those who got `jiffed' would have been even more annoyed because some of their mates were in the NAAFI having a pint!.......I`m sure we`ve all been there haven`t we lads!

Thats just an observation and no a historical fact you understand!!!

All the best

Tony

[Julien]

An ex neighbour of mine worked on Stirlings when they were used for glider towing. He told me that they only got the orders to do this late on and then there was a mad rush for paint, brushes etc.

If you were late inline you got a mop & bucket! needles to say some were not so precise!

I think Tony pretty much hit the nail on the head!

Julien

Edited April 27, 2009 by Julien

[MilneBay]

Yes there is. The codes are 'DB' - 411 Sqn RCAF.

Ta, I knew that there was enlightenment out there.

[Van]

Well based on the fact that the white stripe on the wing root is very dirty and nearly obscured, I'd say they were doing a fresh coat of paint. Someone perhaps felt that they were not distinct enough.

Not an assumption, but a working hypothesis based on observation.

.

Another hypothesis is that the groundcrew or a pilot or even the painters themselves walked all over the paint that had just been recently applied.

Van

[lampie]

Regarding the discussion about the neatness of USAAF aircrafts stripes, and also the repaint's.

This quote from "Leap Off" The History of the 404th FG, not only demonstates the poor quality of the paint used at some fighter groups, but shows that some aircraft had their stripes repainted even before the big day itself.

The bold text is mine.

Quote.

The last plane touched down Saturday June 3rd at 1610 hours. Interrogations wound up in a hurry

and everyone hustled for chow.

After supper the boys stood inside the hangar gaping at the new and sudden activity.

"I don't know what the hell to make of this," commented Staff Sgt. Clarence "Stubby" Kuhl, 507th

armorer, as a dozen "wheels" (flight chiefs), "gears" (crew chiefs), and "wipers" (mechanics) swarmed over

"Elsie", Major Clay Tice Jr's. plane with brushes, spray guns, and cans of paint.

"Looks like a god-damned zebra to me," he added, as black-and-white stripes began to appear on the

wings and fuselage, after much spraying by Corp. Jerome "Zombie" Catherwood, Squadron painter and daubing

by Tech. Sgt. John W. Schaefer, assistant maintenance chief, and Staff Sgt. Charlie Snyder, "Elsie's" crew chief.

We who knew what to make of it thought: "Twenty-four hours! Monday's the Day!"

Sunday the 4th came and brought rain; and the crew chiefs swore at brand-new paint washing off in

streaks. In the dry spells they went back to work with brush and spray. and 48 aircraft—enough for a full

strength Group mission—were ready by Sunday night. About 9 p. m. pilots and intelligence officers from all

squadrons were called to the Group briefing-room; and when we saw the covered maps on the wall and our

"bigoted" officers, Lt. Col. James K. Johnson and Capt. Dudley W. Conner, standing at the head of the room

with an armful of notes and official papers, we knew what was up. From them, and from Colonel McColpin, we

received our introduction to Operation "Neptune" and to "J. A. P. E. O." (Joint Air Plan and Executive Order -

the invasion "bible" for air operations).

With our burden of information we fretted through the entire next day, a day of postponement,

sweating out the weather, finishing the paint jobs on the rest of the aircraft waiting for the word to go.

Returning to the original question, photos of Gabreski's P-47 show that upper wing invasion stripes had been removed as early as the first week of July 1944.

Nige

http://p47.kitmaker.net/

Edited May 4, 2009 by lampie

[RAF Liberators]

Surely they would of been painting from the wing tips and moving back to the wing root. The fact that there is a stripe at the wing root would indicate that it was there prior to painting of the other stripes. So he either painted the stripe at the wing root and then walked all over it to paint the other stripes or it was an old stripe and he was working from wing tip back towards the wing root.

Just my tuppence worth.

Gary

[Steven Eisenman]

As to Gabreski, it would appear that they were removed after 5 July and the before his last mission, which I believe was on 20 July. The pictures of his aircraft with the 28th kill indicates no top stripes. The removal of his stripes should not be indicative of the removal in general, as he was Gabby, after all.

It is interesting to note that replacement P-47s (at least in the 78th FG) that arrived in July had stripes applied . On top on the wings , but not on the fuselage.

It is commonly believed that the stripes were last minute, but they actually had a month and half to plan. The order to apply the stripes and the specs to be used were issued on April 18.