TheModeller Posted January 25, 2009 Posted January 25, 2009 (edited) I decided on this as I have all I need to hand, Tamiyas great little kit, an OOP Jaguar cockpit and flying surfaces set, Ultracast prop/spinner, exhausts, flaps and main wheels. Also got a Squadron vac canopy and a Techmod sheet for RAF(Polish) Mustangs that'll supply the insignia and stencils, the serials, if I decide to add them, see below, will be from the spares box. The subject is featured in this months MAM with this profile; Not sure about the serial but the D-Day stripes on the wings are right, here is the only pic I've been able to obtain of the aircraft but its hard to tell if it has any serial number. I'm also not convinced the spinner is white, it ought to be but in the absence of other Mustang ID markings I reckon it might be Sky. It doesn't look as bright in the photo as the white of the invasion stripes. Here are some notes I collected about the subject from various letters and posts at forums on the 'net "Three letters appeared in Vol24 No11. Brian Derbyshire of Yorkshire recalled a conversation with Edgar Brooks who filled IPMS UK's Technical Advisory role. Edgar claimed that the machine was Mustang III, HB387 and coded AJ*N. Colours would have been US equivalent camouflage with Sky trimmings, but no Malcolm hood. These were supposedly retrofitted at MU's and in short supply. However the squadron code was by the time of delivery in June 1944 KC. Derbyshire suggested that the aircraft would have flown its first few operations without code or serial, but would still have carried its USAAF serial in the cockpit. Finally, in Vol25 No9, Robert Owen of the 617 Sqn Aircrew Association said that the story about the aircraft being a 'gift' of the Americans seems to be a bit apocryphal. There were two aircraft, HB285 and HB387, both apparently allocated to the RAF and delivered on 22nd June 1944, having been fitted with Malcolm hoods at a maintenance depot in the UK. They flew in RAF grey/green camouflage and without codes or serials for at least some of their time. The squadron Operations Record Book records the letter 'N' against one of the aircraft but it is not associated with a serial. Speaking only for myself, I'd go with a MkIII with Malcolm hood and invasion stripes over US equivalents to the Day Fighter Scheme and no serials or codes. I've found 3 serials for Mustang Mk.III's which were used by 541 Sqn between June 44 and May 45, alongside Spit PRX, XI and XIX. Serial numbers were FX855 ex 315 Sqn, FX952 ex 129 Sqn and HB837 ex 617 Sqn, one of the MKIIIs used by Cheshire and later passed on to 309 Sqn. As a matter of interest the other MKIII used by 617 is shown as HB825 " My other subject was going to be the escort carrier HMS Tracker, not sure if that will happen yet, need to find an airgroup, got some Avengers but despite hunting high and low I can't find any Wildcats in my stash! Donations of a couple from a decent US carrier kit would be greatly appreciated. Looking forward to getting started on this one :-) Cheers. Edited January 25, 2009 by TheModeller
CPNGROATS Posted January 25, 2009 Posted January 25, 2009 That will be a GOOD LOOKING Mustang in the Brit colours.... D-Day Cheers, ggc
TheModeller Posted January 25, 2009 Author Posted January 25, 2009 (edited) Thanks for the encouragement guys ;-) Do have one issue to investigate, I'd like to do the model carrying 500 lb Target Indicator ordnance, but I have no idea what they look like, anyone able to help? Cheers. (P.S.) Any other pics of this machine would be a great help too... Edited January 25, 2009 by TheModeller
Stebos Posted January 26, 2009 Posted January 26, 2009 I'd agree on that spinner not being in white. Though as always it's really hard to know with a B&W shot, the red on the fin flash just disappears. Any chance it would have been white but is just heavily weathered?
TheModeller Posted January 26, 2009 Author Posted January 26, 2009 (edited) Any chance it would have been white but is just heavily weathered? Could be but according to my notes this Mustang went to 617 Sqn straight from the MU after it had been delivered so not in service long to get that dirty, and in general Mustang spinners don't seem to be mucky objects... Also note that the standard Mustang ID markings of white bands behind the spinner and around the wings and tail surfaces are absent. I just want it to be Sky to make it look different I guess. Cheers Edited January 26, 2009 by TheModeller
Random Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 I'm going to be building the same kit as you, albeit in a different scheme and probably OOB. The spinner could well be white as remember you are looking at it through the blur of the black prop.
TheModeller Posted January 31, 2009 Author Posted January 31, 2009 (edited) I'm going to be building the same kit as you, albeit in a different scheme and probably OOB. The spinner could well be white as remember you are looking at it through the blur of the black prop. Could well be right, maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part, but the notes I quoted indicate that the machine went to 617 straight from the MU so the regular ID markings could have been applied there but don't seem to have been added, I was just hoping that someone might know a bit more and could tell me for sure if the spinner was white or Sky, if nothing else turns up I'll probably go with white anyway... Just wanted something different, C'est la vie... Cheers. Edited January 31, 2009 by TheModeller
Mattlaker Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 To me, it looks to be more of a sky colour- either that or yellow! As for looking through a blurry prop- yeh, i can see what you mean, although the bits of spinner that aren't obscured are still an off white shade! afraid i can't offer anything definite!
AnonymousA667 Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 I thought it was the case that P-51's in RAF service had a white painted spinner in conjunction with white wing and tailplane bands as special recognition markings? peebeep
Edgar Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 That photo was taken in July 1944, during Cheshire's last mission with 617. It was delivered 21-6-44, in a packing case, and needed degreasing, etc., before assembly, and Cheshire's first flight was operational (no time even for a "circuit and bump,") on June 25th., to Siracourt. This should mean that it was in its delivery scheme (whatever that was,) and probably didn't have the Malcolm hood fitted, unless one had been pre-ordered. This also begs the question, would they have had time to paint the invasion stripes, as well? Being an early morning daylight mission, I think they'd have made time. Edgar
TheModeller Posted February 8, 2009 Author Posted February 8, 2009 That photo was taken in July 1944, during Cheshire's last mission with 617. It was delivered 21-6-44, in a packing case, and needed degreasing, etc., before assembly, and Cheshire's first flight was operational (no time even for a "circuit and bump,") on June 25th., to Siracourt. This should mean that it was in its delivery scheme (whatever that was,) and probably didn't have the Malcolm hood fitted, unless one had been pre-ordered. This also begs the question, would they have had time to paint the invasion stripes, as well? Being an early morning daylight mission, I think they'd have made time.Edgar I'd pretty much plumped for a Malcolm hood anyway simply to make sure the resin 'pit is visible, it's whats fitted in the pic and it's wearing invasion stripes so I hope it'll be within the rules. If not I'll call it artistic licence ;-) Another point though is the radio fit, at some point an RAF wireless fit must have gone in to allow communications between Cheshire and the bombers, what was fitted and where, I'm making progress but will be scratch building the starboard cockpit wall to incorporate the right W/T fit. Any ideas?
TheModeller Posted February 8, 2009 Author Posted February 8, 2009 Here is an update and a run down on what I'm putting into the kit. Kit Tamiya 1/48th scale Mustang Mk.III* Accessories Jaguar P-51B detail set Ultracast propeller and spinner Aires corrected undercarriage bay Ultracast corrected flaps Ultracast wheels Ultracast shrouded exhaust stacks Squadron vac-formed 'Malcolm' canopy hood Decals National markings and stencils from Techmod Polish Mustangs sheet These are the assumptions I've made about details of the colour scheme and markings. Colours/Markings/Paint RAF DG/OG/MSG scheme with a Sky(?) spinner. Painted D-Day recognition stripes, not covering the upper or lower surfaces of the flaps. No fuselage codes or serials, (If I add them they'll be black 8 inch). Black code 'N' under nose(?), (12 inch, one of 617's Mustangs was associated with the code N, if I add it, not sure.). Cockpit Interior – Dull Dark Green/Black. Main wheel bay – Painted Aluminium/Zinc Chromate Green. Flap returns – Painted Aluminium. Notes as to the work I plan to do. Fill and eliminate upper wing panel detail forward of the gun-bay access panels. Drill through lower cowl cooling vents. Replace Jaguar seat with kit seat and armour plate fitted with MDC etched Sutton Harness. Modify Jaguar interior casting and fit kit radiator ducting. Fit Jaguar rudder and fabric elevators. Radiator and Oil Cooler flaps closed. Whip Aerial to starboard of fuselage spine aft of cockpit. Fit bomb racks and 500 lb Target Indicator Flares/Bombs. Friday, Feb 6th 2009 – 1st Day. Construction began with removing the airframe components from the sprues for test fitting, I also cleaned-up the main resin cockpit parts, the one-piece floor/interior casting and the new cockpit sidewalls. Some examination and test fitting revealed a great deal of warping of the resin cockpit/interior casting, it was also too short, the aft radiator ducting wouldn’t reach the end of the aperture in the fuselage and the sides of the duct were also undersized, on top of these problems the sides of the fuel tank casting were peppered with air bubbles. All a bit disappointing as this meant a lot of filling was going to be needed. The kit interior moulding fitted perfectly but the floor of the cockpit was incorrect, after some comparisons and measurements I decided to remove the cockpit floor from both the kit moulding and the resin casting and then mate the resin floor to the kit part. Some careful razor-saw work was called for but the result fitted together perfectly as well as fitting into the fuselage nicely, and I had a correct cockpit floor! The next step was to remove the moulded sidewall detail from the fuselage halves so the Jaguar parts would fit; I decided to cut these down as the aft sections would be barely visible in the finished cockpit. I may well have to scratchbuild the starboard cockpit wall to add an RAF W/T fit, see previous post. The detailed battery and ancillaries pallet was carefully sliced off the resin fuel tank ready to add the top of the kit tank along with a few lengths of fine fuse wire here and there to replicate cables and wiring. Finally I chose to use the kit seat and armour plate as the Jaguar seat had an American pattern harness cast in place, I used an MDC photo-etched Sutton harness to dress up the kit seat and removed the heavily moulded ‘cross-member’ from the back of the armour plate before adding a new frame and some other small details. Now that I’m happy the interior is going to work the next job is to get the Aires main wheel bay to fit. Photos to follow shortly... Cheers.
AndyL Posted February 8, 2009 Posted February 8, 2009 Very comprehensive indeed...looking forward to the pics
Thunderjug Posted February 8, 2009 Posted February 8, 2009 And just where were you last year when I asked for pics or info of this bird As for the serial yes its correct both Cheshire & Tait flew this aircraft on 2 missions each. Look forward to seeing the finished article. Oh and Edgar I see you found the book then
TheModeller Posted February 13, 2009 Author Posted February 13, 2009 (edited) Thanks for all the support chaps. Here is a two part update on my progress, first some pics of the cockpit/fuselage test assembly, I like to spend time making sure things fit properly, I don't like to use fillers unless I have too!, that said Tamiyas Mustang fits together incredibly well, I reckon from the box you could make this with no need for filler whatsoever! As I'm trying to stuff all this resin into it I reckon time taken over fitting and fettling is time well spent. So... Pics... Some images into the modified cockpit, forward of the seat it's all Jaguar resin, nice IP and the flat floor is correct for the Merlin Mustangs, behind the seat its the Tamiya interior with the battery/ancilliaries package from the Jaguar casting. Combining the parts got me a nice cockpit and a radiator and ducting assembly that isn't bent like a carrot! The seat and armour are from the kit with bits of the MDC harness on. The underside of the Jaguar cockpit floor... ...and the kit radiator outlet duct. With the bits inside and the fuselage test fitted I couldn't resist popping the lovely Ultracast stacks and spinner in place. And this was the first day results... Note the excellent fit of the tailplanes, this really is a lovely kit! Next the Aries gear well! Not such happy progress. Cheers. Edited February 13, 2009 by TheModeller
daz greenwood Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 Looking good, can't wait to see more.
TheModeller Posted February 13, 2009 Author Posted February 13, 2009 (edited) Next major task was to get the Aries corrected main gear bay to fit... Here is the offending article, correct back wall that I reckon no P-51 kit has ever got right, and lovely cast detail, a shame half of it is going to be hidden when I'm done! All the same I'll know its there... The wings, the instructions for the resin don't mention removing the detail inside the upper wing mouldings but it's fairly self-evident. A great deal of tedious scraping and sanding later had the lower wing looking OK-ish, still needs the attention of the curved scalpel, given how fragile the leading edges have become without the moulded gearwells I don't want to use a rotary grinder tool in case of slip-ups, I already cracked the starboard leading edge but fortunately the repair is sound and any damage will be eliminated when I clean-up the seams. The upper wings are a different matter however, no fragile structure to protect so I was about to have at it with my dremel and grinding bit when I discovered the bit is missing... I've probably thrown it away so a trip to B&Q will be needed tomorrow before I can thin out the upper halves, and they really need a lot of thinning if the wings are going to fit together around the resin! More to come once I've got this job done. I have to get it fitting properly and then test fit wing and fuselage to make sure the resin cockpit doesn't foul the resin gear well... C'est la vie! Cheers. Edited February 13, 2009 by TheModeller
Edgar Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 Oh and Edgar I see you found the book then Didn't just find it, I bought it Edgar
TheModeller Posted February 20, 2009 Author Posted February 20, 2009 Finally managed to track down some diamond burrs to fit my mini-drill, I was surprised by how difficult it is to find replacements for the metal grinding bits I used to use, all the same, these burrs come in packs of 6 assorted heads, made by a company called Rolson, £1.25 a set!!! I call that a bargain so I bought a few, also picked up a watchmakers mallet, idea for using with a punch and die set, bit pricey a £7.25 but came with replacement faces and it should last forever! I'll be grinding plastic 'till the wee small hours to get this Aries bay in place so maybe more pics tomorrow. Still looking for a steer on the R/T fit and how to produce the pair of 500 lb TI's for the wing racks... Anybody? Anybody? Bueller? Cheers.
Thunderjug Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 PM Honeybee mate he can tell you about the target markers
Nick Millman Posted February 24, 2009 Posted February 24, 2009 "Oh and Edgar I see you found the book then" (Thunderjug) "Didn't just find it, I bought it " (Edgar) Which book were you both referring to please? I was particularly interested in the reference to packing cases and degreasing as it suggests the aircraft may have been in a factory painted scheme. If it was a gift from the 8th (is that true?) it should have been OD/NG. Is the photograph of the RAF Mustang (posted in this thread) confirmed to be Cheshire's? Thanks.
timbo33 Posted February 25, 2009 Posted February 25, 2009 Veering slightly off topic - here's a brilliant bit of footage of bombs being fused/prepared for loading. I particularly like the bomb being dropped by the Blenheim, which had bungied boomb doors so the bomb just drops through and knocks the door out of the way..... Loving the pics of your progress - I've just put one of these together myself and you're right it's a beautiful kit that falls together. You will however need some filler along the seams on the underside, particularly the face of the radiator duct as it's a glaringly obvious and the underside of the engine cowling. You may need to re-scribe some of the detail here as it's very shallow.
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