Hurricane colours

[Jazzy Jase]

Hello,

Can anyone help me figure out what colours to paint my Hurricane.

It's the Revell 1/72 Mk2b. I'm using the kit decals and the aircraft in question is based at Duxford in August 1941.

The Revell colours are:

Upper - 65 - Bronze Green

Upper - 79 - Greyish Blue

Lower - 57 - Grey

Are there standard RAF colours that these correspond to?

[daz greenwood]

Probably IIRC they should be Ocean Grey

Dark Green

and Medium Sea Grey.

But I could be wrong though.

[AnonymousFO98]

you are spot on Daz

http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/colorcharts/s...orcharts_uk.htm

[Jazzy Jase]

Thanks Guys,

I thought as much, but then there are two possible Hurricane's on the instructions both with slightly different colour callouts and I wasn't sure why Revell had done that.

[timbo33]

Thanks Guys,

I thought as much, but then there are two possible Hurricane's on the instructions both with slightly different colour callouts and I wasn't sure why Revell had done that.

Depends on where and when the second scheme represents. A lot of strange colours were used for field modification due to whatever was available locally. There's whole threads on here about different colour schemes, for instance overpainting Desert Schemes with a blue colour for use in Malta where action was mostly over the sea.

[Test Graham]

I no longer have all the instructions for that kit, but I wonder if one of them was intended to be the Mixed Grey that was used when Ocean Grey was not available? Are they both the Revell colours medium greys, but one a little bit darker?

Sadly, there seems to be no evidence of Hurricanes on Malta being painted with the blue/grey colour, only Spitfires.

Edited December 19, 2008 by Graham Boak

[AnonymousFO98]

have the instructions

there are indeed two call outs with notorious Revell numbers and mixes as follows:

Option 1; UF.Y B0712 601 sqn Duxford Aug 1941

A = bronze green rev65

B = greyish blue rev79

D = grey rev57

Option2; AE.W BE485 402 sqn Warmwell Nov 1941

A

B

C = 80% rev79 + 10% rev48 (sea green) + 10% rev 57

i assume that will be darker but no idea why that should be?!

maybe someone could shed some light on this

[Jazzy Jase]

Walrus, did you mean to write A, B, C for option 2? My instructions say A, C, D.

Option 1; UF.Y B0712 601 sqn Duxford Aug 1941

A = bronze green rev65

B = greyish blue rev79

D = grey rev57

Option2; AE.W BE485 402 sqn Warmwell Nov 1941

A = bronze green rev65

C = 80% rev79 + 10% rev48 (sea green) + 10% rev 57

D = grey rev57

A must be Dark Green

D must be Medium Sea Grey

Either B or C will be Ocean Grey. I suspect Graham could be right that the other is Mixed Grey, but which is which?

[AnonymousFO98]

If that is what yours say Jase- apologies for the gaff and thanks for correcting

Edited December 19, 2008 by walrus

[Test Graham]

Comments on Mixed Grey differ, but most put it around Dark Sea Grey. If the second mix is greener and lighter, and for a slightly later aircraft, then I'd suggest that is meant to be Ocean Grey.

[Nick Millman]

The "mixed grey" was 7 parts MSG to one part Night or black (the old blue-black Night - not the sooty stuff). The result was lighter than OG which was in turn lighter than DSG, ergo the mixed grey was lighter than DSG.

The mixed grey was applied to the 601 Airacobras so bearing in mind the circumstances and timeline the Hurricanes issued to them may have had the same treatment. The first Hawker diagrams showing "ocean grey" were produced on 24th July 1941 but the colour then was more like the dark grey that was to become DSG. This very dark grey was used on some of the trials aircraft. The colour changes were only finalised for Hurricane production on 26th August 1941 with the dark grey revised to the blueish grey that was to become OG, so UF-Y at Duxford in August 1941 was more likely to have been in the MU-applied mixed grey.

BO712 does not seem to be a correct serial for a Hurricane IIB. BE485 may have been factory completed in the day fighter scheme. The On Target profile shows BE485 with OG.

Revell 79 Blaugrau equates to RAL7031 Blaugrau (Blue Grey) and has an approximate FS595b equivalent in 36152. Mixing 7 parts MSG to one part Night would result in a colour something like this. The addition of Revell 48 Seegrün (Sea Green)/RAL 6028 Kiefergrün (Pine Green) and Revell 57 Grau/RAL 7000 Fehgrau (Squirrel Grey) in the proportions suggested would appear to make it more like OG.

So B seems to be the mixed grey and C is OG.

Edited December 19, 2008 by Nick Millman

[AnonymousFO98]

Hi Nick

was trying to do several things at the same time and ended up doing them all badly. who said men can't multi task!

Should indeed have been serial number BD712 which was among the first batch of the order from the Hawker Factory, deliveries commencing in July 1941. Given that the date on the instruction sheet was August 1941, then i assume it would have factory applied paint, the aircraft would probably have been delivered that month.

BE485 was among the 13th batch to be delivered from Hawker. this again would indicate that it was new at the date quoted in the instructions. So unless Hawker suddenly ran out of paint, they ought to be the same colour?

or have i made a gaff again somewhere?

[Nick Millman]

Should indeed have been serial number BD712 which was among the first batch of the order from the Hawker Factory, deliveries commencing in July 1941. Given that the date on the instruction sheet was August 1941, then i assume it would have factory applied paint, the aircraft would probably have been delivered that month.

BE485 was among the 13th batch to be delivered from Hawker. this again would indicate that it was new at the date quoted in the instructions. So unless Hawker suddenly ran out of paint, they ought to be the same colour?

or have i made a gaff again somewhere?

In that case BD712 was probably completed in the TLS (before the OG was introduced on the production line in August 1941) and re-painted at MU in the new scheme using the mixed grey instead of OG. BE485 may have been one of the first to be factory completed in the new scheme with OG. So it looks as though Revell did their homework with those options.

[Test Graham]

I have seen photographs captioned as Mixed Grey that were significantly darker than Ocean Grey. Perhaps Nick has access to more detailed information than earlier authors. I have also seen Hurricanes/Spitfires with a colour so light as to be Medium Sea Grey without any black at all, but cannot in all honesty think of many photos showing a colour lighter than Ocean Grey, but not very....limitations of interpreting b+w photographs, perhaps.

I think it likelier that Revell have chosen to rely upon different sources, than that the two aircraft were indeed painted differently, but maybe someone really did know differently. Bowyer, perhaps? Photographs I have of 607/194 Sq aircraft of this period appear to have the tones consistent with the Day Fighter scheme - with the exception of one Hurricane mentioned above.

If so, I don't see this as Hawker running out of paint. It would be a case of using the temporary mix until the real paint arrived. I suspect that Mixed Grey was more often seen on aircraft repainted in the field than new from the factory.

[Nick Millman]

I suspect that Mixed Grey was more often seen on aircraft repainted in the field than new from the factory.

I agree. Judging from the Hawker drawings and revisions I think it doubtful that any aircraft were completed in the specified mixed grey on the production line but I stand to be corrected. I don't have the diffuse reflectivity for the mixed grey but if prepared according to spec it ought to be somewhere between MSG (26%) and DSG (13%). OG is 16%. I would be surprised to see the mixed grey reflect darker than that but I haven't brushed out the standard mix or checked how it photographs. Using Night or straight black would make a difference to the final colour too. The tendency for some blue greys is to photograph lighter than they actually appear but this is getting into tricky territory.

Hawker didn't use OG proper on the production line until after 26th August 1941 which seems too late for BD712 to be in the Day Fighter scheme proper that same month if it was delivered in July. I think it more likely that BD712 would have been in the "interim scheme" (see below) or mixed grey.

The odd very dark aircraft in photographs could be in the pre-July 1941 trials scheme where the "Ocean Grey" was actually more like DSG. The two 56 Sqn Hurricanes seen by M J F Bowyer on 26th May 1941 were "a very dark shade of grey" and he questioned whether these colours equated to the later ones. If Hawker were applying the DSG-type "ocean grey" as noted in their July 1941 factory drawings on the production line until late August 1941 it has not been well documented but it may explain the photographs of Hurricanes in an apparently very dark "mixed grey". If that is the case we have the possibility of a Hawker factory applied DSG, different to OG and the mixed grey and obviating the need for MUs to apply the latter.

[Test Graham]

Excuse my misleading comment - I was not thinking of Hurricanes when I made the comment about darker greys. I don't know of any such photo of a Hurricane.

[Jazzy Jase]

Wow! Information overload!

I'm making BD712, and it seems we're agreed that it wasn't painted in Ocean Grey. But was it painted in Mixed Grey or DSG? What does DSG mean? Dark Sea Grey? Dark Slate Grey?

Assuming it was Mixed Grey then do I use 7 parts MSG to 1 part black? If it was "DSG" then I'm not really sure what I'm doing yet!

Also, what does TLS and MU stand for?

Thanks once again for all the help.

Edited December 20, 2008 by Jazzy Jase

[Test Graham]

In this context, DSG does mean Dark Sea Grey.

MU is Maintenance Unit. Aircraft are built in the factory, cleared through the production flight test schedule and then delivered to an MU. There they may be brought up to full service standard, modified to particular requirements, or just stored until distributed to a flying unit.

TLS is Temperate Land Scheme: Dark Green and Dark Earth uppersurfaces. At this stage in the UK that's with Sky undersides on fighters, and had just been replaced by the Day Fighter Scheme: Dark Green and Ocean Grey over Medium Sea Grey.

For Mixed Grey, bear in mind that mixing Humbrol/Xtracolour/Tamiya or whatever MSG and Black will not necessarily provide the same shade as mixing the original MAP shades. (That's Ministry of Aircraft Production.) No doubt people will point out that there would be batch-to-batch differences even within the MAP colours, and that frontline personnel cannot be relied upon to mix in the correct proportions, or to stir well enough. (Personally, I think that's underestimating the intelligence of the painters, let alone the discipline they were working under, but people will say it anyway.) So frankly any slightly bluish medium-to-dark grey will be good enough.

[Jazzy Jase]

Thanks Graham.