Rules and Reg's II - Mind your language

[Paul821]

As the main R&R thread is locked, I have opening this one for discussion.

 

In my post in 'My other project' Show us the preserved railways you're involved with.

 

I have mentioned switches(points).

 

This thread is for any discussion about railway related issues that might be questioned or contentious, such as what is "Stroudley improved green". The only rule here is keep it friendly but do express an opinion.

[Mjwomack]

Stroudley improved green - Which @Enzo the Magnificent, @Rob Sutto and others have already mentioned along with Grass Green🤣

 

For my tuppence on colours, should preserved railways make up paint schemes? Yes Keighley and Worth Valley I am looking at you, but the Mid Norfolk is also guilty- with which I reveal my view!

[2996 Victor]

2 hours ago, Mjwomack said:

For my tuppence on colours, should preserved railways make up paint schemes? Yes Keighley and Worth Valley I am looking at you, but the Mid Norfolk is also guilty- with which I reveal my view!

I really don't understand why they bother. Enthusiasts who visit heritage lines want to see the locos and rolling stock in a genuine livery, while the families whose visits are the bread and butter income aren't usually that bothered and are there to enjoy a day out. My tuppence anyway, for what it's worth 

 

Cheers,

Mark

[Rob Sutto]

On 19/09/2025 at 09:03, Mjwomack said:

For my tuppence on colours, should preserved railways make up paint schemes?

 

I think some of that (in the early days of preservation at least) was a result of BR getting a bit tetchy about private lines using their branding, albeit with defunct crests.

 

   

Edited September 20 by Rob Sutto
repetition of "branding" ​ 🤦‍♂️ ​

[Enzo the Magnificent]

On 19/09/2025 at 09:03, Mjwomack said:

For my tuppence on colours, should preserved railways make up paint schemes? Yes Keighley and Worth Valley I am looking at you, but the Mid Norfolk is also guilty- with which I reveal my view!

 

On 19/09/2025 at 11:34, 2996 Victor said:

I really don't understand why they bother. Enthusiasts who visit heritage lines want to see the locos and rolling stock in a genuine livery, while the families whose visits are the bread and butter income aren't usually that bothered and are there to enjoy a day out. My tuppence anyway, for what it's worth 

 

 

For a while, Royal Scot was painted in LMS Crimson Lake.  As it had been converted to a taper boiler in British Railways service, this was a livery it had never ever carried in this form.  It looked dreadful.     In fact I cannot think of any Stanier taper boilered loco which carried Crimson Lake in service.

 

Courtesy of Wikipedia

 

I also have an issue with Flying Scotsman carrying Witte-type smoke deflectors and painted in LNER Grass green.  The smoke deflectors were a British Railways modification and so are utterly wrong in LNER livery.  However, they are now a requirement for main line working so I suppose I'm not gonna win that one... 

 

Courtesy of Wikipedia

 

 

[johnlambert]

I think some BR Standard locos that were sold into preservation ended up with fake liveries because British Railways was a bit funny about having obsolete steam locos running around with "British Railways" on them, when they wanted to project the image of a modern railway.

 

I can understand people objecting to Royal Scott in LMS Crimson Lake, I remember seeing the Stanier 8F at the GCR in that colour and finding it a bit odd (I think it has been repainted now) like a 76:1 scale Triang loco. But I guess it isn't the end of the world.

 

For some reason I don't think BR Green suits the shape of Flying Scotsman and I much prefer it in LNER Apple Green even with smoke deflectors that it would never have worn with that livery.

 

But I think whatever colours people paint preserved locomotives, there will always be some people who would prefer that a different colour or scheme was chosen, you simply can't please everyone.

[Enzo the Magnificent]

2 minutes ago, johnlambert said:

LNER Grass Green

 

Fixed that for you.

 

  

[Retired Bob]

13 hours ago, Enzo the Magnificent said:

For a while, Royal Scot was painted in LMS Crimson Lake.  As it had been converted to a taper boiler in British Railways service, this was a livery it had never ever carried in this form.  It looked dreadful.     In fact I cannot think of any Stanier taper boilered loco which carried Crimson Lake in service.

Courtesy of Wikipedia

 

Seeing as the railway museum would not preserve any of the Royal Scot class because there were not any original engines remaining, they had all been modified with a tapered boiler.  Thank goodness Royal Scot was privately preserved.  I agree that none of the tapered boiler Scots ever wore Crimson Lake, the livery at the time of conversion was LMS lined Black but, I cannot get upset about how it looks in this photo, even a bicycle looks good in Crimson Lake.   

[Mjwomack]

11 hours ago, Retired Bob said:

there were not any original engines remaining,

And that's another thing that gets my goat - the recent pursuit of scratch building extinct locos, like some metal Jurassic Park! There's a reason many of these locos weren't preserved, and yes I'm thinking especially of the Baby Deltic project a calamity in operational life- stick to Class 37s!

[Retired Bob]

18 minutes ago, Mjwomack said:

And that's another thing that gets my goat 

Perhaps I need to get a goat.  I currently have nowhere to keep one, but I do have a Hornby Royal Scot with tapered boiler in that fetching preserved livery of Crimson Lake. 

[Retired Bob]

Here's a photo of my Royal Scot locos, just to show I'm not a total Philistine, I also have an original version of 6100, the old Bachmann engine.  That did wear the Crimson Lake livery.

 

just to prove they both have their bells and whistles.    I bought them both second hand, as per with Bachmann locos, the name plates are separate for you to attach yourself, fortunately the original owner never did it, they need polishing and varnishing first.  The smoke deflectors are also a separate add on.

[Retired Bob]

As to painting loco's in a livery that wasn't worn before they became preserved.  I have this Merchant Navy Class engine, Canadian Pacific, painted in the early BR Pacific Blue scheme which it would not have worn in service after being rebuilt.  To be fair to Hornby, the preserved engine was painted this way.  Last I saw , it was in that purple colour to celebrate the late Queens anniversary.

 

When Hornby did make a some Merchant Navy Class locos, I did get one in Blue.  I applied the p/e nameplates from Fox, East Asiatic Company

[Enzo the Magnificent]

1 hour ago, Retired Bob said:

Here's a photo of my Royal Scot locos, just to show I'm not a total Philistine, I also have an original version of 6100, the old Bachmann engine.  That did wear the Crimson Lake livery.

 

 

Trivia Alert!   The current Royal Scot is not the original Royal Scot.   The original 6100 Royal Scot swapped identities with 6152 King's Dragoon Guardsman in 1933 for a tour of Canada and the USA.  The identities were never swapped back after the tour.  This means that the historically significant original engine was scrapped in 1965.

[Retired Bob]

1 hour ago, Enzo the Magnificent said:

Trivia Alert!   The current Royal Scot is not the original Royal Scot.   The original 6100 Royal Scot swapped identities with 6152 King's Dragoon Guardsman in 1933 for a tour of Canada and the USA.  The identities were never swapped back after the tour.  This means that the historically significant original engine was scrapped in 1965.

Ah!  But did it?  I have the Royal Scots book by Ian Sixsmith, and he looks into this theory.  His conclusion is that 6100 was highly modified with many new components to ensure it remained serviceable throughout its tour of North America.  He looks at the possibility that 6152 King's Dragoon Guardsman took on the identity of 6100 Royal Scot but concludes that while 6152 went into the workshop at the time that 'a loco' was being prepared to go to the USA.  The engine numbered 6152 came out and returned to steam in August 1933 when '6100' was in the USA.  6152's record card has no mention of it going to the USA, so the conspiracy theory of which loco went to the USA isn't so clear cut.  The problem with steam engines being original is convoluted by the fact that so many components from the boiler down to the wheels are changed due to wear and tear, tenders are swapped while a loco is being repaired, they are a bit like "Triggers broom".  So when the loco numbered 6152 was scrapped at Motherwell in 7/1965 how much of it was the original 6152 or possibly 6100?

[Enzo the Magnificent]

9 minutes ago, Retired Bob said:

The problem with steam engines being original is convoluted by the fact that so many components from the boiler down to the wheels are changed due to wear and tear, tenders are swapped while a loco is being repaired, they are a bit like "Triggers broom".  So when the loco numbered 6152 was scrapped at Motherwell in 7/1965 how much of it was the original 6152 or possibly 6100?

 

Excellent argument!     

 

We should also consider that the LMS engaged in some "creative accounting" at times, so maybe their records are not to be entirely trusted...    

 

Most of the LMS Patriot class were stated to be rebuilds of LNWR Claughtons.  This was done so that the "rebuilds" could be charged to revenue accounts, rather than using capital.  In reality, the first two Patriots had the driving wheels and bogies of withdrawn Claughtons.  The remainder were pure new builds but because the precedent had been set they could all be charged to the revenue account.  

[Retired Bob]

4 minutes ago, Enzo the Magnificent said:

We should also consider that the LMS engaged in some "creative accounting" at times, so maybe their records are not to be entirely trusted...    

That's possibly down to the individual or the whims of the department head.  They managed to keep the record straight with the swap of Coronation and Duchess of Hamilton.  Photos prove the change of identities and their swap back, as do their record cards during that North American tour.  With the Royal Scot we can never know for sure which loco actually went to North America in 1937.

[Rob Sutto]

On 27/09/2025 at 20:44, johnlambert said:

For some reason I don't think BR Green suits the shape of Flying Scotsman

 

100% this. I'm not too fussy about the smoke deflectors, that engine needs to be in the LNER green with 4472 on the cab. 

[Enzo the Magnificent]

Here is a commentary on LNER grass green, taken from Railway Liveries 1923-1947 by Brian Haresnape, published by Ian Allen, 1989.

 

The board of directors of the newly created London & North Eastern Railway were amazingly quick off the mark when it came to selecting a new livery for the company in 1923. In fact some thought was apparently being given to this subject before the Big Four' were actually in being, because a display of locomotives in various colour schemes which took place at York at the end of January 1923, with eight engines on view for their choice, was the result of some preliminary studies at the end 1922. Not surprisingly, the locomotive colours were the first thing to be considered, and it seems that the colours of carriages and wagons were accorded less priority, being selected to harmonise with the chosen locomotive colours, perhaps.

The constituent companies of the LNER (as it soon became known in abbreviated form) had varied livery schemes, but green (of varied hues) was predominant, along with black and grey; the latter a wartime austerity colour scheme which both the Great Northern and the Great Eastern Railway had resorted to as a matter of expediency. If green was an obvious candidate in the eyes of the selection committee, it still had to be resolved in terms of a definite shade, or hue. The grass green of the GNR was quite distinct in its appearance from the more subtle Brunswick green of the Great Central, and then there was that deep and mysterious shade, almost a brown in fact, which the North British Railway had used with the title of bronze green. The North Eastern Railway had used Saxony green, but of two different shades (or tones) for passenger or goods engines. To each of these distinctive greens, equally distinctive lining- out and secondary colours were added, giving still more individuality. Even the black locomotives, such as were to be found on the Hull & Barnsley, or the Great North of Scotland for example, had beautiful lining schemes to enrich them. (The Hull & Barnsley actually described its black as 'invisible green'!)

 

It was perhaps unfortunate that the Great Eastern Railway had ceased to use its splendid Royal blue (a deep ultramarine) because of the 1914-18 wartime shortages, and this lovely colour was not presented to the LNER directors for their consideration. Greens were predominant, with lined black as a secondary choice. It could be argued that the LNER board showed much conservatism, and one wonders why some alternatives, in the red or blue spectrum or even yellow-were not even tried out on an experimental basis. One can only guess that personal preferences played a strong part, perhaps allied to old pre-Grouping loyalties, even in these initial displays. Or then again, perhaps expert opinion (from such men as J. G. Robinson of the GCR or Nigel Gresley of the GNR) was in favour of green because of its excellent wearing qualities in the harsh environment of the steam railway; undoubtedly a truism. Personally, I wonder if any account at all was taken of public opinion, or whether the livery selected for the LNER was entirely a matter between professional railwaymen and the board of directors.

The matter was settled, for locomotives at least, very quickly indeed, with a second display held at Marylebone station on 22 February 1923 for the director's benefit. At this display only the former GNR grass green and the former GCR Brunswick green were shown; with lined black again shown but limited only to the former NER style, with red lining. By May 1923 the former GNR grass green was officially adopted for principal passenger locomotives and the former NER lined black for tank and goods engines.

 

Grass green is the unofficial description of GN Standard Light Green, stemming from GNR days and lasting until the final hours of the LNER, in December 1947, and this book will refer to the colour as such. This confronts the Author with something of an enigma, because since boyhood days, he (and his colleagues) have always known, and referred to, the LNER locomotive green as apple green. Exactly how, and when this contradiction arose in our minds I have been unable to establish, although I have found printed references to the colour as apple green in the period 1947/8; so we were not alone in this assumption.
Earlier in this book, I forewarned the reader of the dangers of using names for colours (eg what shade is olive green?) and the LNER presents an excellent example. Doubtless the shade known as grass green can be compared to the colour of fresh grassland - but so may it be equally compared to an apple of the cooking variety! I must settle for the official description, and the shade shown by Ernest F. Carter in his book Britain's Railway Liveries 1825-1948, in which he depicts it as No 10 on his colour chart.

 

 

It should be noted that the number 10 stated here is not an official designation.  It is simply the tenth colour swatch on Carter's chart.  Later in the book Haresnape refers to a LNE colour chart with grass green as LNE1.  I wonder if this is an official designation.

 

Haresnape only gives passing mention to the fact that grass green was a different shade depending on where the engine was shopped.  It seems that Doncaster and Darlington works simply continued to use their own paint stocks.  That was fine for Doncaster as they had been part of the GNR and so their green was the specified colour.  Darlington continued to use NER green (also known as Saxony green) which was darker and, to my eye, looks much better on a model loco.   

 

 

 

[Billos]

On 28/09/2025 at 17:05, Retired Bob said:

they are a bit like "Triggers broom".

Or the ship of theseus.

https://www.thecollector.com/the-ship-of-theseus/

[PeterB]

On 27/09/2025 at 22:36, Retired Bob said:

Seeing as the railway museum would not preserve any of the Royal Scot class because there were not any original engines remaining, they had all been modified with a tapered boiler.  Thank goodness Royal Scot was privately preserved.  I agree that none of the tapered boiler Scots ever wore Crimson Lake, the livery at the time of conversion was LMS lined Black but, I cannot get upset about how it looks in this photo, even a bicycle looks good in Crimson Lake.   

Actually, that may not be entirely correct. According to Haresnape's book on Railway Liveries 1923-1947,  in 1935 Stanier converted 6399 Fury, the old experimental high pressure version of Fowler's original parallel boiler Royal Scot into the first of the tapered boiler versions, 6170 British Legion, and as a consequence it was apparently painted in the then standard Crimson Lake livery. Unfortunately the photo in his book does not show which of the various marking schemes it carried though it may have been the short lived block ie non-serif type. Ok, I know there were some differences between it and the later production run of locos so maybe some would say it was not a true "tapered Scot", and the others were all built too late for Crimson Lake.

 

Pete

[Retired Bob]

11 hours ago, PeterB said:

Actually, that may not be entirely correct.

Thanks for that information Peter.  Just shows that there is always a possibility of an exception.  Just like the Coronation Scots/Duchess class, there should not have been one after de-streamlining in lined LMS Crimson Lake with smoke deflectors fitted.  When they went into shop for the smoke deflectors they should have been repainted LMS lined black.  However, The engine, Duchess of Buccleuch, having acquired its smoke deflectors returned to steam for a short time until it could be repainted and was photographed in that scheme.  Hence Hornby produced a loco of Duchess of Buccleuch with smoke deflectors in LMS lined Crimson Lake.