Typhoon - short cannon barrels?

[Johnson]

A 181 Sqn Typhoon 1b with unusually short cannon barrels. Why? And when?

 

 

 

This might have been in Oct 1942 during the first Typhoon bomb trials. Cannons possibly removed (leaving the shroud) to save weight when first carrying 500LB bombs?

 

But it does have the Typhoon underwing B&W recognition stripes which would date it it to late Nov or early Dec 42.

 

No chord wise yellow i/d stripes on the wings. I think 181 Sqn were with 11 Group (until they joined 2 TAF), so this would date the photos to after 3 Feb 1943 when the yellow stripes were removed.

 

Also has the rudder mass balance mechanism on the tail. Only on early Typhoons.

 

I'm interested because I'm making a 181 Sqn car-door Typhoon. Thoughts/opinions/expert advice much appreciated.

 

Charlie

 

[ben_m]

Not specific to these photos, but another I've seen with same appearance had a caption saying the cannons were removed.

[Troy Smith]

41 minutes ago, Johnson said:

which would date it it to late Nov or early Dec 42.

the stripes got removed late 43 or early 44.

 

I'd go with just the cannons being removed, as these look like 1000 lb bombs, not 500 lb, and perhaps being cautious, the cannons were heavy.

 

As always,  one for @Chris Thomas

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

The 20mm cannons weighed in at around 106 pounds each, they have been removed from the aircraft, leaving the barrel supporting structures in place.  R8831 Taken on charge 30-Sep-42 became 3694M 14-Jun-43

[Johnson]

39 minutes ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

The 20mm cannons weighed in at around 106 pounds each, they have been removed from the aircraft, leaving the barrel supporting structures in place.

 

Thank you.

 

40 minutes ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

R8831 Taken on charge 30-Sep-42 became 3694M 14-Jun-43

 

I've been searching in vain for a Typhoon production list, or the Form 78 movement cards. Are the A.M. Form 78 cards for Typhoons available online, or a serial number list?

[MDriskill]

This photo appears in one of Chris Thomas's excellent Wingleader books on the Typhoon. IIRC, the a/c was being used for ordnance trials. The guns were in short supply for operational units, and not relevant to the trials, so off they went. We are seeing the back half of the barrel fairings.

Edited August 1 by MDriskill

[PatG]

Looked at all my pics of the Typhoon from various publications, old and more recent, and all operational examples have the regular cannon installation so assume his must be a kite which was being used for non-operational or testing purposes?

 

No idea what the purpose my have been but it would definitely not be one flown for op's.

 

HTH.

 

Kind Regards

Pat.

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

As far as I am aware the Hawker Typhoon Form 78 aircraft cards are not available online.  I am working off the RAF Serial Registers and Contract Cards and the book The Typhoon File by Chris Thomas.  When it comes to numbers several airframes are reported as not assembled, while in the region of 500 airframes were reduced to spares, mostly in 1943, due to a lack of engines.  Officially Hawker 2 prototypes (1st flights 14-Sep-40 and 3-Jul-41), 5 mark Ia (March 1942 to March 1943), 10 mark Ib (September 1942 to April 1943), Gloster 100 mark Ia (June 1941 to August 1942), 3,200 mark Ib (February 1942 to November 1945), total 3,317

 

Hawker built, serial order
1 Prototype P5212
1 Prototype P5216
3 Ia from R8198 to R8200
2 Ia R8220 and R8221
10 Ib from R8222 to R8231

 

Gloster built, serial order
24 Ia from R7576 to R7599
33 Ia from R7613 to R7645
2 Ib R7646 and R7647
2 Ia R7648 and R7649
1 Ib R7650
5 Ia from R7651 to R7655
1 Ia R7672
1 Ib R7673
4 Ia from R7674 to R7677
3 Ib from R7678 to R7680
3 Ia from R7681 to R7683
4 Ib from R7684 to R7687
1 Ia R7688
1 Ib R7689
2 Ia R7690 and R7691
2 Ib R7692 and R7693
1 Ia R7694
1 Ib R7695
1 Ia R7696
1 Ib R7697
1 Ia R7698
2 Ib R7699 and R7700
1 Ia R7701
1 Ib R7702
2 Ia R7703 and R7704
1 Ib R7705
2 Ia R7706 and R7707
1 Ib R7708
1 Ia R7709
1 Ib R7710
1 Ia R7711
10 Ib from R7712 to R7721
37 Ib from R7738 to R7774
1 Ia R7775
1 Ia R7792
4 Ib from R7793 to R7796
1 Ia R7797
4 Ib from R7798 to R7801
1 Ia R7802
14 Ib from R7803 to R7816
1 Ia R7817
9 Ib from R7818 to R7826
1 Ia R7827
2 Ib R7828 and R7829
24 Ib from R7845 to R7868
1 Ia R7869
19 Ib from R7870 to R7888
1 Ia R7889
1 Ib R7890
1 Ib R7913
1 Ia R7914
9 Ib from R7915 to R7923
10 Ib from R8630 to R8639
1 Ia R8640
11 Ib from R8641 to R8651
1 Ia R8652
8 Ib from R8653 to R8660
1 Ia R8661
2 Ib R8662 and R8663
29 Ib from R8680 to R8708
1 Ia R8709
10 Ib from R8710 to R8719
1 Ia R8720
2 Ib R8721 and R8722
9 Ib from R8737 to R8745
1 Ia R8746
35 Ib from R8747 to R8781
47 Ib from R8799 to R8845
40 Ib from R8861 to R8900
25 Ib from R8923 to R8947
16 Ib from R8966 to R8981
38 Ib from DN241 to DN278
49 Ib from DN293 to DN341
34 Ib from DN356 to DN389
50 Ib from DN404 to DN453
47 Ib from DN467 to DN513
34 Ib from DN529 to DN562
48 Ib from DN576 to DN623
35 Ib from EJ900 to EJ934
50 Ib from EJ946 to EJ995
43 Ib from EK112 to EK154
31 Ib from EK167 to EK197
45 Ib from EK208 to EK252
36 Ib from EK266 to EK301
28 Ib from EK321 to EK348
50 Ib from EK364 to EK413
32 Ib from EK425 to EK456
41 Ib from EK472 to EK512
9 Ib from EK535 to EK543
48 Ib from JP361 to JP408
23 Ib from JP425 to JP447
37 Ib from JP480 to JP516
21 Ib from JP532 to JP552
39 Ib from JP576 to JP614
42 Ib from JP648 to JP689
34 Ib from JP723 to JP756
19 Ib from JP784 to JP802
26 Ib from JP836 to JP861
45 Ib from JP897 to JP941
16 Ib from JP961 to JP976
28 Ib from JR125 to JR152
41 Ib from JR183 to JR223
30 Ib from JR237 to JR266
50 Ib from JR289 to JR338
33 Ib from JR360 to JR392
24 Ib from JR426 to JR449
44 Ib from JR492 to JR535
45 Ib from MM951 to MM995
44 Ib from MN113 to MN156
45 Ib from MN169 to MN213
41 Ib from MN229 to MN269
44 Ib from MN282 to MN325
43 Ib from MN339 to MN381
41 Ib from MN396 to MN436
48 Ib from MN449 to MN496
44 Ib from MN513 to MN556
40 Ib from MN569 to MN608
45 Ib from MN623 to MN667
41 Ib from MN680 to MN720
45 Ib from MN735 to MN779
33 Ib from MN791 to MN823
46 Ib from MN851 to MN896
45 Ib from MN912 to MN956
32 Ib from MN968 to MN999
46 Ib from MP113 to MP158
32 Ib from MP172 to MP203
35 Ib from PD446 to PD480
45 Ib from PD492 to PD536
30 Ib from PD548 to PD577
35 Ib from PD589 to PD623
44 Ib from RB192 to RB235
42 Ib from RB248 to RB289
45 Ib from RB303 to RB347
48 Ib from RB361 to RB408
37 Ib from RB423 to RB459
39 Ib from RB474 to RB512
43 Ib from SW386 to SW428
36 Ib from SW443 to SW478
45 Ib from SW493 to SW537
46 Ib from SW551 to SW596
49 Ib from SW620 to SW668
36 Ib from SW681 to SW716
45 Ib from SW728 to SW772

[Johnson]

3 hours ago, MDriskill said:

This photo appears in one of Chris Thomas's excellent Wingleader books on the Typhoon.

 

Just ordered!

[NZTyphoon]

According to Chris Thomas in the excellent Wingleader Photo Archive #16: Hawker Typhoon 1940 - Spring 1943 

Quote

Often misidentified as R8831, this is in fact R8830 - one of the first operational Typhoons equipped to carry bombs, having been issued to 181 Squadron in October 1942. Two thirds of the '0' in the serial number has been obscured by the eraly transport joint strengthening modification, leaving what appears to be a '1'.

This aircraft was not (emphasis added) with 181 Squadron as the EL codes would suggest, but was on loan to A&AEE [Aircraft & Armament Experimental Establishment, Boscombe Down*] from February 1943, for low-level bombing ricochet trial: the bombs are dummy 500 pounders. It is apparent that the cannon have been removed, leaving the short fairings: this is unlikely to have been linked directly with the trial but rather reflects the fact that armament was on a separate 'charge' to the airframe and probably retained by 181 Squadron as cannon were in short supply. 

 

*Note added

 

[Johnson]

16 hours ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

I am working off the RAF Serial Registers and Contract Cards and the book The Typhoon File by Chris Thomas.

 

That's an impressive list Geoffrey. Will you be able to add dates and Sqn allocations?

 

Not able to find The Typhoon File by Chris Thomas, is it a limited distribution?

[galgos]

It’s an Air-Britain publication, there’s this one on Amazon for a ridiculous price:

 

 

I bought one fairly recently from Abebooks for about £20.00, I see there’s currently one for £38.00. This is a good alternative:

 

 

 

[Johnson]

Thanks Max,

 

13 minutes ago, galgos said:

one on Amazon for a ridiculous price

 

Yes, a bit pricey!

 

The one on Abe Books is more reasonable. I've got almost all of Chris' books, and the 3 Wingleader books are on order. I think I'll wait for a bit.

 

Cheers.

 

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

R8830 mark Ib Gloster built, Taken on Charge 31-Oct-42, served with 181 squadron, Struck off Charge for spares 17-Jul-43.

At this stage no plans to acquire the Form 78 and accident reports required to do detailed individual histories, so I usually just have the start and end dates.

Correction, the dates given above for the Typhoon prototypes are when delivered to the RAF, first flights were 24 February 1940 and 3 May 1941.

[Chris Thomas]

I must say I am flattered that there is still interest in the Typhoon File, published in 1981, if somewhat appalled by the prices asked!.  However it does have its shortcomings as much further information has come to light in the intervening years. A brief history of ‘histories’ might be helpful.

 

The original Typhoon File was compiled using the Air-Britain technique established by Jim Halley and used for his Serial Registers and type histories in Aeromilitaria.  The basis for each history was of course the Form 78 with details of fates added from the Form 1180s (accident cards) and the unit ORBs.  This left a lot of unexplained gaps (filled on the Form 78s by ‘P(presumed)SOC 21.6.47’ - a paper exercise which wrote off anything that did not appear on a post-war census).

I was soon working on what would become the ‘Typhoon and Tempest Story’ (1988) with Chris Shores and realising there would not be room for a full list of histories (publisher’s decision) decided to list all the accidental and operational losses. I was aided in this by limited access to casualty records and the discovery of some OR101s - a regular return from 2ndTAF squadrons stating aircraft received and lost - unfortunately incomplete and only used in the latter half of 1944.  Jim Halley used the Typhoon and Tempest Story loss list when he revised the serial registers in the 1990’s.

 

Enter Mr Bickers with his ‘Typhoon, the Combat History’. Mmm.  The individual aircraft ‘histories’  without doubt have been lifted verbatim from the updated Air-Britain serial registers, with the omission of aircraft which (apparently) did not have use by a flying unit. Without acknowledgement or, as far as I know, permission.

 

The ‘histories’ in the F.K.Mason Typhoon/Tempest book have so many omissions and inaccuracies they can be disregarded.

 

Next came the 2ndTAF series which brought even more updates. Constant cross-referencing of records made me realise the scale of errors on the Form 78s and in the ORB.  In the former, entries were quite often made on the wrong card - on the adjacent card, or one with a similar serial eg. JP and JR MN and MM, even R8 and RB.  I have my own cards which track all the changes and include information from all sources, such as RAE and A&AEE cards, ATA deliveries, pilots logs, spotters logs (good ol’ Ray Strurtivant) etc.

 

I have started a list of consolidated updates to the original Typhoon File - but am so far only up to JP495 and the fourth Wingleader book has priority.  When complete I’ll make it available but I’m not sure how at present.

[galgos]

Thanks for the “glimpse behind the scenes” Chris. I had assumed that Bickers’ book was based on the Air Britain Typhoon file but not to have had permission nor to acknowledge that fact is rather underhand. Delighted to hear that a final Wingleader book is being worked on though, such a valuable resource. 
Max 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/a-thread-for-data-files.62821/page-2 (and page 1)

Hawker Typhoon
Curtiss C-46
North American B-25
Bomber Command Load Weight chart
British jettison tank production
Republic P-47

 

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/mustang-numbers.61924/
P-51 Mustang (7th message has the updated version)

[Johnson]

Geoffrey,

 

Many thanks, the information I was after and much, much more. A most impressive work.

 

Regards,

 

Charlie