Dennis_C Posted June 12 Posted June 12 Horrible news... My thoughts are with those who were in that doctors' campus that was hit by falling Dreamliner and with families of passengers, crew and possible victims on the ground. Unfortunately it is the first fatal hull loss for Boeing-787 too... 1
Mike Posted June 12 Posted June 12 Pretty horrible all round I really hope the suffering was brief. 1
Adam Poultney Posted June 12 Posted June 12 Awful to see, especially for a modern type with a good safety record. I expect that the number of ground fatalities will be much higher than what is currently reported. Online speculation of course will always run wild, especially with a crash in India you see some truly wild ideas. But what can be seen from the video of the crash is that it looks like, but it's not fully clear, the RAT is deployed.
Dave Swindell Posted June 12 Posted June 12 2 hours ago, Adam Poultney said: But what can be seen from the video of the crash is that it looks like, but it's not fully clear, the RAT is deployed. I'm not seeing any sign of the RAT in the linked video, it might be down but it's not clear enough to see. It does appear to be wheels down/flaps up 30 seconds after takeoff, rather than flaps down/wheels up which would be a much more typical for this stage of flight.
Jure Miljevic Posted June 12 Posted June 12 Well spotted, Dave. Looks eerily like BEA Trident 1C Papa India crash. Very sad and disturbing news. At least it seems there are some survivors. Cheers Jure 1
bzn20 Posted June 12 Posted June 12 Horrible . I've watched it from 2 angles and as far as I can make out it has no flaps at all . There was something hanging below the centre fuselage which could have been a RAT . No flaps ,no chance I'm afraid .
Dave Swindell Posted June 12 Posted June 12 21 minutes ago, Jure Miljevic said: Looks eerily like BEA Trident 1C Papa India crash. Or Spanair 5022 MD82 at Madrid
bzn20 Posted June 12 Posted June 12 Sky news ,2 vids https://news.sky.com/video/india-plane-crash-flight-to-gatwick-carrying-242-people-crashes-at-ahmedabad-airport-13382565
tempestfan Posted June 12 Posted June 12 Disturbing - the longer video on Sky shows it has no flaps for the full part of take off run that is seen, so apparently not accidentally retracted. In that configuration, I assume they must have required a much higher speed to unstick than usual - likely an abort would have resulted in a crash as well, but likely not quite as severe. Fortunately the area in which it came down is not as densely built up as many others around, otherwise the results may have been far worse. RIP.
JohnT Posted June 12 Posted June 12 It certainly looks to my eye like the take off was attempted without the normal flap setting. Doesn't the 787 have a Takeoff Configuration Warning System (TOWS) or Takeoff Configuration Warning System (TOCWS) to alert the crew that flaps are not properly configured? BBC News suggesting that the full length of runway was used to get airborne which might be indicative of an incorrect flaps configuration condition for whatever reason Horrible whatever the cause and thoughts with those killed and their families at this time.
Dennis_C Posted June 12 Posted June 12 (edited) Agree to what others say. Very likely it was take off attempt with flaps fully up. I watched several videos today with 787 taking off, and I believe flaps down should be quite distinctly visible on available videos. Still that poses questions how that could happen with modern level of automation and warning systems? Edited June 12 by Dennis_C
bzn20 Posted June 12 Posted June 12 (edited) 17 hours ago, JohnT said: full length of runway Think it's normal in India hot ,humid conditions take a lot of runway by what y Dad told me when they left Delhi 1980s,Hot,humid and heavy rain he was the Flight Eng on new ish 747-236 ,it had RB211s ( he loved working with Rolls Royce engines Merlins on Lincolns ,Avons on Comets , 2 stage Conways on 707 and 3 stage Conways on VC10s , RB211 on 747-236 RB211 cropped fan on 757 ) it used the whole runway . He said if it had been the earlier 747-136 with Pratts it would never have taken off with the same load . Edited June 13 by bzn20 1
CE1 Posted June 12 Posted June 12 11 minutes ago, Dennis_C said: Agree to what others say. Very likely it was take off attempt with flaps fully up. I watched several videos today with 787 taking off, and I believe flaps down should be quite distinctly visible on available videos. Still that poses questions how that could happen with modern level of automation and warning systems? And those warning systems have redundancy built in. But nothing can ever be 100% safe I guess. Very sad for all those involved. 1
Dennis_C Posted June 12 Posted June 12 (edited) 5 minutes ago, bzn20 said: Think it's normal in India hot ,humid conditions It seems it's been about +40°C today in Ahmedabad but quite dry at 30%. Edited June 12 by Dennis_C 1
bentwaters81tfw Posted June 12 Posted June 12 Just watched new footage. 1 man walked away from seat 11A. Right beside the exit. Also footage of starboard wing on ground with slats extended so 'Flaps 1' at least. The aircraft is fitted with TOWS. It took the whole 11,000 feet of runway and kicked up dust on liftoff. I await further informed information on this terrible disaster. 1
bootneck Posted June 12 Posted June 12 2 hours ago, Dave Swindell said: I'm not seeing any sign of the RAT in the linked video, it might be down but it's not clear enough to see. It does appear to be wheels down/flaps up 30 seconds after takeoff, rather than flaps down/wheels up which would be a much more typical for this stage of flight. What is RAT? Please provide the full title of any acronyms for its initial use, so that us non-aviation orientated members can understand what is being referred. Follow up comments can then use the acronym as normal. cheers, Mike 2
Dave Swindell Posted June 12 Posted June 12 11 minutes ago, bootneck said: What is RAT? Ram Air Turbine, a propeller driven electrical generator that drops down into the slipstream when the engine driven generators are no longer providing power Edit, twas @Adam Poultney that mentioned the RAT first, I was only replying 🙂 1
tempestfan Posted June 12 Posted June 12 4 minutes ago, bootneck said: What is RAT? Ram Air Turbine, a relatively small device to generate electrical power in case of engine power loss etc.
bentwaters81tfw Posted June 12 Posted June 12 The RAT when deployed on the 787 sounds like Harvard. Quite audible. TOWS is Take Off Warning System. If take off power is selected without the flaps/slats being selected, a loud warning sounds on flight deck.
Jure Miljevic Posted June 12 Posted June 12 I think they there is a version of RAT that provides hydraulic pressure, too. Cheers Jure
Dennis_C Posted June 12 Posted June 12 (edited) 52 minutes ago, bentwaters81tfw said: Also footage of starboard wing on ground with slats extended so 'Flaps 1' at least. The aircraft is fitted with TOWS. It took the whole 11,000 feet of runway and kicked up dust on liftoff. Hmmm... let's see what would be preliminary results. Could be anything unfortunately. Edited June 12 by Dennis_C
tempestfan Posted June 12 Posted June 12 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Dennis_C said: Hmmm... another possible situation is Yak-42 at Yaroslavl scenario - take off attempt with breaks on wheels. Would such case be possible at all with 787? I am no aerodynamicist nor do I know the required flap take-off setting(s) for the 787 - but if any flaps were selected, the angle/extension was low, at least compared with what I have seen on my not so infrequent flights on the 320-series. EDIT - what I wanted to say was that with my limited knowledge it didn't appear to lack speed but lift, which would be logical if insufficient flaps were elected. Edited June 12 by tempestfan
bzn20 Posted June 12 Posted June 12 ELRAT For Emergency Lowered Ram Air Turbine that also powers Hyd , fuel and any other pumps and electical services ( Can't remember if it's 100 percent or Primary services only . VC10 Prototype had a HYRAT ( which wrecks the ELRAT meaning 😅) that would pump Skydrol Hydraulic Oil and a standard ELRAT . The normal production VC10 just the ELRAT . We used to function the ELRAT in the hangar and the noise was unbelievable . Also dropped them on post major servicing air tests . There is a story of it being used for real emergency once that I know of anyway on a civvy Super VC10, feeding fuel to all four engines from the fin tank .
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