Rodney in Norway - Spring 1940

[Mr. Church]

On 10/06/2025 at 08:56, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

You can see in that map that the block causeways are in progress. These would be completed by September 1944 blocking all of the sounds down the east side of Scapa Flow. It's also means you can nowadays disembark a ferry on South Ronaldsay and drive to Kirkwall.

 

The only problem now is the lack of a suitably large and powerful British Fleet to station there. 🙈

 

[Mr. Church]

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. Two things jump out at me.

 

First, is it possible for the light Flotta Green colour to appear so dark in both the colour and black and white footage and the black and white photo shown previously? I don't know enough about the intricacies of old film to really have an opinion. Granted the colour film is filmed into the light with the ship in shade, which is not ideal. But the upper hull camouflage colour still looks very dark. Again is it conceivable for a light green colour to appear so dark in colour film?

 

Secondly, reiterating dick's previous quote from the report from HMS Furious' Captain: "In harbour there is usually too much green and too little brown for the colouring of the landscape to blend with that of the ship. "Rodney" was particularly conspicuous at Greenock." When he mentions "too much green and too little brown" it appears conceivable that he meant that the landscape has too much green and too little brown. As he refers to the landscape blending with the ship rather than the other way around. The sentence is tantalisingly ambiguously worded. It can easily be interpreted either way vis a vis green versus brown...  

 

The reason this occurred to me is that I recently found on Ebay a secondhand copy of Ronald Careless' book on HMS Nelson from 1985. It refers to Rodney taking over as flagship during Nelson's magnetic mine damage in 1939-40. but makes no mention of Rodney's camouflage or anything. However in the context of our discussion there is an interesting observation about Greenock. I quote from the book: "On Wednesday 27th May (1941) the ship went into the Pentlands for more exercises and in the evening she headed west and then turned south through The Minches. At Greenock the next day the banks of the Clyde looked quite beautiful. The trees were in their new leaves , the different greens contrasting with one another."   

 

So Greenock in late spring 1941 (and presumably also late spring 1940) obviously looked rather green. And the green must have been pretty prominent for the author to comment on it specifically as he did. Indeed I also remember a comment in the "World at War' series, the Fall of France episode I think,. that the weather in Spring 1940 was very fine. So the leaves may have been green even earlier in 1940 than they were in 1941?

 

Therefore I wonder was Rodney too dark brown rather than too light green?

 

Maybe the upper hull was brown and the bridge and funnel green? As by the sounds of Careless' description of Greenock, green camouflage should have been ideal. Very difficult to see how majority green camouflage would be "particularly conspicuous" against a background of different contrasting greens as Careless described it. Again assuming Furious' Captain had a similar view to Careless a year later.     

 

[GrzeM]

Very interesting remarks. But I'm still not sure how to paint my Rodney. 

Now I tend to see on the photos a lot of darker brown and only main gun turrets and the bridge in light green. And maybe the funnel. 

[Mr. Church]

Indeed that is the €1 Million question... And the question remains.

 

It appears near certain that there is no light green aft at the waterline. And that the light grey at the waterline extends all the way along the hull from right forward to right aft.

 

Question remains as to whether the upper hull irregular pattern is dark brown or light green? And the same then with the bridge, funnel and perhaps main gun turrets? And where is the demarcation line between the colours?

 

Of course it could have been changed over time too like many other camouflage schemes were?

 

[dickrd]

On 6/11/2025 at 9:59 AM, Mr. Church said:

....So Greenock in late spring 1941 (and presumably also late spring 1940) obviously looked rather green.....

 

 An interesting train of thought in your post. As it happens I took a photo of the north bank of the Clyde opposite Greenock when passing one slightly murky morning a couple of years ago. Viewed from the height of Furious (I was slightly higher) ANY brown would be too much! 

 

 

Edited June 14 by dickrd

[Mr. Church]

This is it... 

 

I think your layer cake colour theory makes a lot of sense. And may well be the reality of what the scheme was. 

 

It's just a question of which order of colours?

 

Upper hull green with some brown above that again? 

Or

Upper hull brown with some green above that again?

 

I am probably leaning towards the latter. Given the well documented green colour of Greenock!

 

The photo, film and written witness evidence thus far is tantalisingly ambiguous!

[Mr. Church]

A chance find this morning on YouTube. Of course it is not named as "Rodney" or anything:

 

 

Look at the 16 second mark and there is a split second view of Rodney's port side in the Flotta Camouflage Scheme. Of note that the hull pattern is different to the starboard side.

 

Screenshot posted for ease of viewing and discussion. Copyright rests with original owner:

 

 

I have never seen any other view of her Port Sode in this colour scheme. So a useful reference to have.

[robgizlu]

18 minutes ago, Mr. Church said:

A chance find this morning on YouTube. Of course it is not named as "Rodney" or anything:

 

 

Look at the 16 second mark and there is a split second view of Rodney's port side in the Flotta Camouflage Scheme. Of note that the hull pattern is different to the starboard side.

 

Screenshot posted for ease of viewing and discussion. Copyright rests with original owner:

 

 

I have never seen any other view of her Port Sode in this colour scheme. So a useful reference to have.

Thanks for this thread - really interesting and kudos to you for searching through the IWM archive!!

Wish we had a lot more of this analysis.

Rob

[Mr. Church]

There are really not very many photos of these schemes. A couple in this book though that dick and Sovereign Hobbies Jamie assisted with:

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/British-Town-Class-Cruisers-Southampton/dp/1526718855

 

Including this schematic of HMS Sheffield based on a good clear aerial photo. 

 

 

Online here:

https://warhistory.org/@msw/article/hms-sheffield-september-1939-august-1945?amp=1

 

There is also a photo in the book (on wiki too...) showing HMS Southampton:

 

 

Notice in the area of the large slab sided aircraft hangar adjacent to the forward funnel that Sheffield has a couple of black slashes to break up the big flat rectangular outline of the hangar. Black being effective against the light Flotta Green. The horizontal black stripe at the top of the hangar is an error and in the photo looks like a shadow of the PomPom platform above. And not black camouflage. The upper hull colour in the photo looks lighter, as one might expect light green to look in a black and white photo, controversial statement perhaps? With the brown sections appearing darker.

 

Then look at the photo of  HMS Southampton. The upper hull colour looks dark. With her aft funnel and possibly also X Turret looking lighter. Note here the slash on the hangar side is white or very light grey. Which would be logical against a dark brown background. The upper hull here "looks" as you might expect dark brown to look, again perhaps a controversial statement?

 

So it would seem both permutations were possible:

Green upper hull and some brown above that.

And:

Brown upper hull with some green above that.

 

Again with the caveat that perhaps it is possible for dark Flotta Brown to appear light in an old black and white photo? And light Flotta Green to appear dark? I don't know enough about old film and processing etc. to be sure?

[chaosdeath131]

On 24/06/2025 at 13:50, robgizlu said:

Thanks for this thread - really interesting and kudos to you for searching through the IWM archive!!

Wish we had a lot more of this analysis.

Rob

Not seen that one, fantastic find 

 

[chaosdeath131]

maybe the colours of the camouflage specifically on rodney are Light Green, 507C & white

I would guess the following for her camo:

Going with the image of the starboard pattern, her aft part looking darker which might be 507C with the rest of the light hull colour being White and the rest being Light Green

 

and ther Port side pattern being just painted in Light Green and White

 

 

I probably might be wrong, definitively looking forward to what the other people here think.

[iang]

29 minutes ago, chaosdeath131 said:

maybe the colours of the camouflage specifically on rodney are Light Green, 507C & white

I would guess the following for her camo:

Going with the image of the starboard pattern, her aft part looking darker which might be 507C with the rest of the light hull colour being White and the rest being Light Green

 

I can't see any white on either side.  Notice that the Walrus is in  overall aluminium dope, so the lightest colour appears darker than this on the starboard side photo posted above.

 

I found some further footage of Rodney off Norway in IWM film ADM 670, at around 9.00 (and Nelson before this)

 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060008058 . Here's a screenshot:

 

 

[chaosdeath131]

On 26/06/2025 at 19:46, iang said:

I can't see any white on either side.  Notice that the Walrus is in  overall aluminium dope, so the lightest colour appears darker than this on the starboard side photo posted above.

 

I found some further footage of Rodney off Norway in IWM film ADM 670, at around 9.00 (and Nelson before this)

 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060008058 . Here's a screenshot:

 

 

Hm alright, but i am not sure then if the aft part of the lower pattern is darker because of shadows or if its actually painted in a darker colour 🤔

 

[iang]

On 25/06/2025 at 15:00, Mr. Church said:

There are really not very many photos of these schemes. A couple in this book though that dick and Sovereign Hobbies Jamie assisted with:

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/British-Town-Class-Cruisers-Southampton/dp/1526718855

 

Including this schematic of HMS Sheffield based on a good clear aerial photo. 

 

 

Online here:

https://warhistory.org/@msw/article/hms-sheffield-september-1939-august-1945?amp=1

 

There is also a photo in the book (on wiki too...) showing HMS Southampton:

 

 

Notice in the area of the large slab sided aircraft hangar adjacent to the forward funnel that Sheffield has a couple of black slashes to break up the big flat rectangular outline of the hangar. Black being effective against the light Flotta Green. The horizontal black stripe at the top of the hangar is an error and in the photo looks like a shadow of the PomPom platform above. And not black camouflage. The upper hull colour in the photo looks lighter, as one might expect light green to look in a black and white photo, controversial statement perhaps? With the brown sections appearing darker.

 

Then look at the photo of  HMS Southampton. The upper hull colour looks dark. With her aft funnel and possibly also X Turret looking lighter. Note here the slash on the hangar side is white or very light grey. Which would be logical against a dark brown background. The upper hull here "looks" as you might expect dark brown to look, again perhaps a controversial statement?

 

So it would seem both permutations were possible:

Green upper hull and some brown above that.

And:

Brown upper hull with some green above that.

 

Again with the caveat that perhaps it is possible for dark Flotta Brown to appear light in an old black and white photo? And light Flotta Green to appear dark? I don't know enough about old film and processing etc. to be sure?

On the basis of the photo posted above, this seems a plausible interpretation. However, I've a slightly different photo of Southampton in Norway.  An enlarged crop of this photo is posted below. I can't see any black other than may be just above the white? on the side of the hangar. Or is this the brown area? Assuming that the mid tone areas are  A507c, there seems to be very little darker colour other than on the upper part of the hangar, an area  on the side of the forward superstructure, and possibly part of X turret barbette. Or is most of this Green and the darker areas are shadow (other than on the hangar)?  The difference in these two photos may be the result of film type and or the filters used. Orthochromatic film would darken any reds on the print compared with Panchromatic film. Brown would probably appear darker as a consequence.  Conversely a red or orange filter with Panchromatic film would lighten reds on the print. A Union flag is helpful for making a judgement on film type, but none are visible.

 

 

 

 

[Mr. Church]

Yes my point was that the 'slash' on the hangar appears very light grey or white on HMS Southampton. Which would seem logical if her upper hull camouflage colour was Flotta Dark Brown. As light grey or white would sharply contrast with Flotta Dark Brown.

 

While on HMS Sheffield the 'slash' appears either black or very dark grey. Which would seem logical if her upper hull camouflage colour was Flotta Light Green. As dark grey or black would sharply contrast with Flotta Light Green.

 

So it would seem from that that both permutations were possible:

 

Green upper hull and some brown above that.

And:

Brown upper hull with some green above that