Rodney in Norway - Spring 1940

[GrzeM]

I've bought extremely cheap (around 10 Euro) and still very pretty Tamiya 1/700 Rodney kit (first released in 1974!!!).

The kit represents the ship in late '20s version, but I'd love to build it as 1940 April-June Norway campaign.

 

Do we exactly know what it looked like then? From what I have found (in more or less credible sources), to the original '20s equipment Rodney should have added two octuple pom-poms at the funnel sides and another one on the stern.

The aeroplane catapult should be installed on the third (X) main gun turret - but what plane for Norway? Still Swordfish as on the Warspite, or already Walrus? The crane - I'm not sure if already the big crane for aeroplane was installed, I'm not sure but I think I remember some photos with the catapult but without the crane. Two quadruple Vickers on the rear sides of the bridge. What else should I know?

 

Configuration of the main superstructure/bridge - it was complicated and I know it changed many times.

 

The camouflage: I assume the uniform dark grey Home Fleet 607A paint, but the main gun turrets tops? Same Home Fleet Grey or Deck Grey?

 

I'd love to see a photo (or more) exactly from this period. I have several from before the war, then there are pretty many from 1940 Autumn, but these are already after refit with AA Oerlikon guns on the B turret.

 

In general I know the photos available on the Imperial War Museum Website, but I was not able to find there a photo precisely described as April-June 1940 (or early 1940 in general) - if there is one there, I'd be grateful for pointing me to it.

 

Any advice will be a great help.

[Our Ned]

According to R A Burt British Battleships 1919-1939 (Arms & Armour Press, 1993), the catapult and crane were fitted during the September-November 1938 refit, during whcih RDF (radar) Type 79Y was fitted.  However, Alan Raven & John Roberts British Battleships of World War Two (Arms & Armour Press, 1976) says the crane and catapult were fitted in 1936.  By January 1940, she was allocated a Supermarine Walrus of 700 Naval Air Squadron.

[GrzeM]

2 hours ago, Our Ned said:

According to R A Burt British Battleships 1919-1939 (Arms & Armour Press, 1993), the catapult and crane were fitted during the September-November 1938 refit, during whcih RDF (radar) Type 79Y was fitted.  However, Alan Raven & John Roberts British Battleships of World War Two (Arms & Armour Press, 1976) says the crane and catapult were fitted in 1936.  By January 1940, she was allocated a Supermarine Walrus of 700 Naval Air Squadron.

Thank you!

 

I think this is the photo with the catapult (covered with canvas?) but without the crane.

 

 

PS. I know this amazing and awesome thread.

 

Edited May 10 by GrzeM

[dickrd]

16 hours ago, GrzeM said:

 

 

The camouflage: I assume the uniform dark grey Home Fleet 607A paint, but the main gun turrets tops? Same Home Fleet Grey or Deck Grey?

 

 

 

I think you will find that she was in a so-called "Flotta Scheme".  This seems to have been 507C lower hull then Flotta Green and Brown above on the upper hull and superstructure. Raven had a go at it on page 8 in Vol 1 of his Warship Perspectives booklets but a short bit of IWM colour film (DVD: Royal Navy at War in Colour) of Rodney at that time appears to me to show the 507C extending all the way to the stern not changing to green just aft of the funnel as Raven has it. I don't have any clear photos of it I'm afraid so hard to be sure.

Edited May 11 by dickrd

[GrzeM]

2 hours ago, dickrd said:

 

I think you will find that she was in a so-called "Flotta Scheme".  This seems to have been 507C lower hull then Flotta Green and Brown above on the upper hull and superstructure. Raven had a go at it on page 8 in Vol 1 of his Warship Perspectives booklets but a short bit of IWM colour film (DVD: Royal Navy at War in Colour) of Rodney at that time appears to me to show the 507C extending all the way to the stern not changing to green just aft of the funnel as Raven has it. I don't have any clear photos of it I'm afraid so hard to be sure.

Now that's interesting! Thank you! Do you mean something like this?

 

 

It is from Witold Koszela Battleships Nelson & Rodney book from Stratus "Ship Shapes" series. I thought it was dubious as it has the post-August 1940 Oerlikons on the B turret but the photos after August 1940 show rather uniform dark Home Fleet grey.

 

But - I am not knowledgeable about Rodney, just starting gathering informations. The adventure just starts!

[dickrd]

4 hours ago, GrzeM said:

Do you mean something like this?

 

That looks very much like how Raven depicted it.

 

The bit of film is not very clear but, no, what I think I see is something more like this:

 

 

I see a relatively small amount of brown at higher levels, light grey at the lower level and a lot of green in between.

 

No Oerlikons on B turret, Walrus on the catapult.

 

Note that Flotta green was much lighter than the green in the illustration in Kozela's book:

 

   

[GrzeM]

Got this film!!!

 

Rodney is around 9:00

 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060008058

 

Anybody knows date of this film???

Edited May 11 by GrzeM

[Our Ned]

Looks like a range of dates, and not in chronological order!  The later shots (08:56 onwards - Rodney, Furious, Warspite) are early war (no RDF, nothing on Rodney's "B" turret) whereas earlier in the film, Rodney is seen in her later camouflage, fitted with RDF and weapons on "B" turret, and the Type I Hunt class ship (Cattistock?) carries SW RDF, so these shots are much later!

Edited May 21 by Our Ned
Typo

[dickrd]

13 hours ago, GrzeM said:

Got this film!!!

 

Rodney is around 9:00

 

Nice find! As @Our Nedsays there are a range of dates to the various clips.

 

However Rodney in the Spring 1940 Flotta scheme can be seen at 05.40, 07.42 and especially at 09.00 and from these clips it should be possible to draw the pattern on the hull much more accurately than anyone has before. 

 

 

 

 

[GrzeM]

On 5/11/2025 at 6:23 PM, dickrd said:

That looks very much like how Raven depicted it.

 

The bit of film is not very clear but, no, what I think I see is something more like this:

 

 

I see a relatively small amount of brown at higher levels, light grey at the lower level and a lot of green in between.

 

No Oerlikons on B turret, Walrus on the catapult.

 

Note that Flotta green was much lighter than the green in the illustration in Kozela's book:

 

   

 

How should I interpret your notes to this drawing (especially the grid on the superstructures)? I mean the camouflage. The equipment I understand pretty well.

Is it possible you make a screenshot from this colour film?

 

Thank you in advance!

G.

 

PS. Why I always drift into such complex and unresearched areas??? I wanted to do a simple, one 507A colour project....

[chaosdeath131]

i wasn't aware of rodney sporting this camouflage, definitively gonna be keeping a eye on this thread, but got this image of her from the colour footage film mentioned by @dickrd

 

 

[GrzeM]

Thank you! It clarifies a bit, but only a bit.

 

I wonder if photos of any other ships in Flotta Scheme are available? I have Southampton:

 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205119316

 

To be honest, it is still hard to determine what is the distribution of various colours on the Rodney...

 

 

[Mr. Church]

On 11/05/2025 at 09:33, dickrd said:

 

I don't have any clear photos of it I'm afraid so hard to be sure.

 

There is a pretty good clear photo of Rodney's starboard side while wearing this scheme in RA Burt's British Battleships 1919-1945.

 

It is at the start of the book under the camouflage section, and not in the main chapter about the Nelson Class.

[Mr. Church]

Assuming the darker colour on the upper hull to be flotta green, the octopoidal bridge structure looks the same as the hull to me.

 

Except possibly the rangefinders at the very top of the octopoidal. The entire funnel and maybe the PomPom tubs look darker also. Presumably the brown colour in the scheme?

 

All in all an interesting scheme and you are all seriously tempting me to buy another Rodney kit to model it! 😂

[dickrd]

19 hours ago, Mr. Church said:

Assuming the darker colour on the upper hull to be flotta green, the octopoidal bridge structure looks the same as the hull to me.

 

Except possibly the rangefinders at the very top of the octopoidal. The entire funnel and maybe the PomPom tubs look darker also. Presumably the brown colour in the scheme?

 

 

 

Forgot to look in Burt!  I can see how it could be interpreted that way but there again the sun is ahead of Rodney which complicates things making the angled sides of the bridge, which are facing a bit more towards the sun than other areas, somewhat lighter than they would be otherwise. 

 

I think that the Burt photo must the basis of Raven's colour layout suggestion. Where the hull side's low level 507C goes into shadow in the photo, roughly below the gap between the forward and middle twin 6" turrets, is where Raven has it switch from 507C to green. So in Raven's depiction there is only that small area of green low down on the hull aft and everything from roughly halfway up the hull sides upwards is brown.  Raven therefore has the total area of brown massively exceeding the area of green. This extract from a report by the Captain of HMS Furious to the C-in-C Home Fleet on the matter strongly suggests that such proportions of colours is not how it was on Rodney: 

 

 

In a general sense during Spring you get the green grass lower down on Flotta, only a thin band at the water's edge in places, and the brown heather higher up. So a layer cake camouflage which has the brown above the green seems 'right' to me. It's just a question of how much green and how much brown Rodney actually had. I don't think Burt's photo (or the copy in my Burt anyway) really shows us any potential demarcations clearly enough to be conclusive either way.      

Edited May 24 by dickrd

[Mr. Church]

Very true about the sun angles on the bridge. And yes a top to bottom colour graduation of brown to green to grey would make sense.

 

All in all, it is a very camera shy scheme. Would be great if a quality colour photo somehow emerged. Like the one of Tirpitz in Faettenfjord in May 1942 with her green brown yellow scheme to match the sides of the fjord.

 

I must re-read through my McCart and Ballantyne books on Rodney again to see do they offer any comment on it from crew members etc. 

[Mr. Church]

No mention of it in either of the two books unfortunately.  

 

However I seemed to recall a snippet of her in this colour scheme in (addition to the colour footage mentioned above) on the Royal Navy at War DVDs.

 

So I checked just there and managed to find it again. It is on the "War in the Frozen North" disc and is in Chapter 5 "Vulnerable to Attack" at the 23 minute mark.

 

Only a fleeting few seconds of footage and it's a similar angle to the IWM footage referenced above. But looks to be different footage though.

 

It almost looks like there is an 's' shaped vertical stripe of a lighter colour going vertically up her funnel aft of the searchlight platform. And her bridge superstructure side looks lighter than her hull. Could of course be a trick of the light angle as dick has pointed out above. Footage is a tad grainy so difficult to tell for certain. And I'm not an expert on old black and white film or how it would show Flotta Dark Brown versus Flotta Light Green etc.

 

The footage would seem to prove the point though that the camouflage was totally ineffective in an open sea. Which was a known risk I suppose. They must have figured the greater danger was being bombed or torpedoed while stationary in port.

[Mr. Church]

A phone picture of my TV screen showing the scene mentioned in my previous message. Poor quality but you get the idea:

 

 

 

For discussion purposes only, no copyright infringement intended.

[Mr. Church]

Then again, looking at this online photo of Scapa Flow:

 

https://www.alamy.com/stock-image-second-world-war-gun-emplacements-and-buildings-on-flotta-at-south-163749980.html?imageid=E8C537D7-675C-48F7-A2F5-9B8835D7BF25&p=7716&pn=1&searchId=628c8fe82cda90ede58d574a83e0fe4b&searchtype=0

 

 

Perhaps light grey at the waterline, dark brown above that and light green on top does make some sense to blend in with a background like that in the photo?

 

Which would echo the wartime comment dick posted above saying that schemes should have had more brown than green. 

 

Rodney's upper hull appears quite dark in the film and photos. Perhaps it is possible for light green to appear that way on film due to the particular type of black and white film used? I don't know enough about the film types and their various vagaries to say for certain.

 

In any event I imagine the scheme was primarily to fool low flying enemy torpedo bombers when the ship was at anchor. As viewed from high level, only all over blue including decks like the later US Navy Measure 21 Navy Blue scheme would have any decent chance of fooling an enemy air crew for a ship at anchor.

[dickrd]

9 hours ago, Mr. Church said:

Then again, looking at this online photo of Scapa Flow......In any event I imagine the scheme was primarily to fool low flying enemy torpedo bombers when the ship was at anchor. As viewed from high level, only all over blue including decks like the later US Navy Measure 21 Navy Blue scheme would have any decent chance of fooling an enemy air crew for a ship at anchor.

 

Ah, I think you have selected an image of the south side of Flotta which has those cliffs.

 

I cannot quite put my finger on where I read it now but the Flotta scheme was a response to the spy hysteria that swept the country in early 1940. The aim of the scheme was to disguise major units of the Home Fleet whilst at Scapa Flow from imagined German spys in Kirkwall. The main fleet anchorage was NNE of Flotta and Kirkwall further on in the same direction beyond that. So the backdrop to the anchorage when viewed from Kirkwall was the NE arm of Flotta which was a bit less dramatic and which looks more like this (although this particular image shows the south side of that arm): 

 

 

It is this layer-cake palette with lots of brown over a small amount of green over a small amount of grey at the waters edge that has coloured my thinking. But a lot would depend on precisely where Rodney was as I think that there might have been more green in the backdrop further west along the north side of Flotta. 

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

It's just a very short trip up the hill southwards from Kirkwall over a summit and down again and you're basically at the village of Scapa. As you crest the summit leaving Kirkwall you have a good clear view of most of Scapa Flow including the southern entrance at Hoxa Head, Flotta, Fara and Cava with the high ground of Hoy in the distance. The view of the western end where the German battleships and battlecruisers were scuttled is obscured but the Home Fleet didn't anchor over there for obvious reasons.

 

Richard's photograph there is generally representative of the view. As he rightly says it's facing north. The towers on the hill on the background are a couple of miles west of Kirkwall.

[Mr. Church]

Thanks lads. I have never been there and hence don't really know the area. Must try and visit sometime. 

 

All in all a very interesting camouflage scheme for Rodney and one you rarely see photographed, never mind modelled. Hopefully more information emerges on it.

[chaosdeath131]

There is a Image of Rodney in that schem in the book "R A. Burt - British Battleships 1919-1945"

the image quality is good enough to make out the pattern of the scheme on her hull.

 

 

[Mr. Church]

Found this showing the layout of the anchorage and defences during wartime in 1940-41:

 

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-scotland-scapa-flow-defences-1940-41-1954-vintage-map-103814830.html?imageid=280580B4-7ED9-492E-A521-C0B8ACCFF984&p=283958&pn=11&searchId=47683ff1c8f034f053baab33417dfbf1&searchtype=0

 

 

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

You can see in that map that the block causeways are in progress. These would be completed by September 1944 blocking all of the sounds down the east side of Scapa Flow. It's also means you can nowadays disembark a ferry on South Ronaldsay and drive to Kirkwall.