Muscle car group build … WE MADE IT !!!

[vppelt68]

5 hours ago, Black Knight said:

I'm wondering if we shud keep to 'Muscle Car' as Detroit Iron only

Them thar foreign kiddie cars are 'super cars', not Muscle Cars

Just saying like

 

(ducks and runs away quickly)

You have a valid point there, but to make a car GB actually happen, I'm afraid we can't be too restrictive

[silverfox63]

I will abide by the collectives decision, as I have a few American muscle car models in the stash. I was just trying to stir the pot, and shine a light on Aussie muscle. No offense was inferred or intended. Or was it?

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

7 hours ago, Black Knight said:

I'm wondering if we shud keep to 'Muscle Car' as Detroit Iron only

Them thar foreign kiddie cars are 'super cars', not Muscle Cars

Just saying like

 

(ducks and runs away quickly)

This is why I’ve opened the discussion up, I will take a poll until Friday and show any & all results here in the thread. So if anyone has any thoughts Pros & Cons please say them. 
 

Now as for the Foreign cars, those are actually touched upon in the Wikipedia thread. So I have allowed them.  
 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_car

 

I’ve already set it up as classic era (54-74)and post-classic/modern (75-2025).so the originators of Detroit Muscle cars can easily al go into the original (54-74) era. Foreign cars can even get there own gallery if thats the way people so want it. So three galleries:

 

Classic Era to include both American & Foreign - 54-74

 

Modern American and Foreign 75-25

 

All cars that do not fit into either era but meet the criteria of a muscle car ? 
 

⬇️ DISREGARD ⬇️

7 hours ago, Black Knight said:

Edited July 9 by Corsairfoxfouruncle

[TonyW]

36 minutes ago, silverfox63 said:

I will abide by the collectives decision, as I have a few American muscle car models in the stash. I was just trying to stir the pot, and shine a light on Aussie muscle. No offense was inferred or intended. Or was it?

 

I absolutely love the Aussie attitude when it comes to cars. A nation of gear headed hooners to be proud of.

My daughter lives in Perth now, with Sidney/Manley before that, and visits always leave me a bit slack jawed at the way the car is so central to life there but with the emphasis on having fun right up front. The number of roads with broad black stripes running away from traffic lights or donut rings at intersections is staggering.

There's a dragstrip on the edge of Perth that has a get it out your system night once a week. It's called Whack bottom Wednesday. ( the sweary filter adds the 'bottom' to the event name, it's a bit mor fruity in real life.)

Burnout competitions take place at all the tracks I've visited with the cars smoking their tires while spinning around the place until they explode. Redneck exhibitionism at its finest. What a country.

 

I'm all for a bit of tree hugging now and then, and if truth be told the car thing is getting out of hand now. The below of a big block competing with the sound of a thousand miles worth of rubber going up in smoke is one of lifes joys though.

 

A four door still isn't a muscle car to me, no matter how much I try to make it so, although it's difficult to justify that view once the Aussie cars are put in context.

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

35 minutes ago, silverfox63 said:

I will abide by the collectives decision, as I have a few American muscle car models in the stash. I was just trying to stir the pot, and shine a light on Aussie muscle. No offense was inferred or intended. Or was it?

I respect that this is why Im asking the collective to help out. 
 

A four door still isn't a muscle car to me, no matter how much I try to make it so, although it's difficult to justify that view once the Aussie cars are put in context.
 

@TonyW See my answer here for your last couple of sentences. Im having a similar issue, I want to respect everyones (nations) contributions to the muscle car existence. I was just never aware of most of them as I grew up doing security at car shows with Detroit steel. 

Edited July 9 by Corsairfoxfouruncle

[TonyW]

I think you have nailed it with the two proposed catagories. Everyone gets a chance to build their own take on the subject.

 

It's going to be a great GB!

[Redstaff]

I agree that the subject matter needs to be less restrictive to get a car GB across the line. While a pure Detroit muscle car build would be nice, it would never go into the bunfight, but if you open it up to classic, modern and others we stand a greater chance of support and progress 

So I'll go with opening it up as proposed.

I mean, who could argue that a Ford capri RS3100 or a Nissan Skyline wasn't a muscle car in its own country. If we leave it as Detroit only it becomes a farce like the baseball "World series" that only American teams compete in 🤣

Ian 😁 

[vppelt68]

A silly question, maybe... how many four door candidates are there in any scale and materials to be built in this GB? Is the question of what's a muscle car and what's not valid at all, as 99,9% of suitable kits available are of 2d sedans or hardtops? Or convertibles... of course. 

[Pete in Lincs]

A couple of four door cars that people may not know about.

Mercury Marauder from around 2003. 4.6 engine in a badge engineered Ford Crown Victoria shell. Usually sold in black. Fast and mean.

Chevy Caprice Impala from around 2000. Had, I think, Monaro running gear? Not sure if it was available outside the middle East

I remember seeing examples of both in Saudi back then. They could certainly get up and go.

[ToE1984]

Hi all,

the GB theme sounds great and I am sure it will produce many great models, but I do not own any typical American muscle car kits right now and as one of my resolutions I would rather like to fit one of my kits into a GB opportunity rather than buying a new kit for the occasion. Hence, I would like to double check whether my ITALERI 1/24 Mercedes SLC500, which does not sound like a typical muscle car, ticks all the boxes:

non-US made - accepted

V8 engine - check

most powerful of its series - check

2+2 seats - check

2 doors - check

Any criteria I am missing?

Cheers

Thomas

[vppelt68]

22 minutes ago, ToE1984 said:

I would rather like to fit one of my kits into a GB opportunity rather than buying a new kit for the occasion.

Your missing the whole point of a new group build in that statement 

[ToE1984]

23 minutes ago, vppelt68 said:

Your missing the whole point of a new group build in that statement 

Fully supporting this! 😁

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

9 hours ago, vppelt68 said:

A silly question, maybe... how many four door candidates are there in any scale and materials to be built in this GB? Is the question of what's a muscle car and what's not valid at all, as 99,9% of suitable kits available are of 2d sedans or hardtops? Or convertibles... of course. 

True but it does merit discussion, as it has been brought up with valid points. 
 

3 hours ago, Pete in Lincs said:

A couple of four door cars that people may not know about.

Mercury Marauder from around 2003. 4.6 engine in a badge engineered Ford Crown Victoria shell. Usually sold in black. Fast and mean.

Chevy Caprice Impala from around 2000. Had, I think, Monaro running gear? Not sure if it was available outside the middle East

I remember seeing examples of both in Saudi back then. They could certainly get up and go.

Friend of mine had the Marauder, his kids inherited it when the cancer won. You forgot about the Holden/Pontiac GTO and the G8 Here in the states at the time. 
 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac_GTO

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac_G8

 

2 hours ago, ToE1984 said:

Hi all,

the GB theme sounds great and I am sure it will produce many great models, but I do not own any typical American muscle car kits right now and as one of my resolutions I would rather like to fit one of my kits into a GB opportunity rather than buying a new kit for the occasion. Hence, I would like to double check whether my ITALERI 1/24 Mercedes SLC500, which does not sound like a typical muscle car, ticks all the boxes:

non-US made - accepted

V8 engine - check

most powerful of its series - check

2+2 seats - check

2 doors - check

Any criteria I am missing?

Cheers

Thomas

I will add you as Ive already allowed for similar with certain Porsches (924/944) those Mercedes are some of my favorites to be honest.
 

 

[keefr22]

OK, I'll tentitively add my name to get the number up, but how actively I can participate depends on how my saving for funds for a new laptop (not another kit!!) goes, as I have no easy and reliable way of uploading pics at the moment.

 

However, I have just read through the whole thread and am a little confuddled as to what is going to be allowed in the various categories. For instance it apppears a Quattro will be - no V8 and 4 wheel drive - so that will surely also qualify Skylines and other JDM 'muscle cars' such as early 2 door Imprezzas? Or even a Ford Focus WRC (other WRC's are available..  ) built as a road car with some back seats stolen from somewhere....

 

And in your last post;

 

9 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Ive already allowed for similar with certain Porsches (924/944)

 

...that surely qualifies almost every 911, they come in both 2 and 4 wheel drive and apart from RS models have 2 rear ''seats'' (even if you can only fit a small child in them!) 

 

And for those who can afford Alpha Models kits they do a whole range of Aston Martins...

 

Not trying to open a can of worms, just genuinely wouldn't know what to pick out of the stash as I have (often a few!) examples of all of those (except an Alpha Aston!!) - and also a couple of 'genuine' muscle cars (an AMT '70&1/2 Camaro Z28 and a Revell '70 Firebird)

 

Seems that the criteria is drifting away from the original muscle car idea?  

 

As I say, just a little confused.....

 

Keith

[szeregowy]

Tempted to join, but I'm a bit confused, so would like a clarification.

Would this Skyline 2000 GT-R be allowed https://www.scalemates.com/kits/tamiya-24335-nissan-skyline-2000-gt-r--454109?

[tangerine_sedge]

Food for thought in the last few pages.  The equation for a muscle car is : Big engine + normal road car = fun.

 

When the cars start to become primarily sports cars then they stop being muscle cars.  Therefore Porsche 928=muscle car, Porsche 924/944/911=sports car.

 

That's why something like a Mercedes AMG GT is not a muscle car (in my opinion, despite having a V8 and 2 doors), but a Mercedes AMG C63 is (despite having 4 doors).

[keefr22]

Just my two penneth - I think if you ask the majority of car modellers (maybe even car enthusiasts) - 'what is a muscle car?' , the answer would usually be an American car with a big V8 that doesn't handle that well - much like Dennis' original definition in the first post! Ask more specifically 'name some' and I'd think the most answers would be Mustang, Camaro, Firebird.... (& likely Corvette, but that doesn't count!!)

 

Some suggestions (including those I previously mentioned) are stretching the definition...

 

Keith

[johnlambert]

I'm in, I've got a few suitable kits that I need an excuse to build.

 

My understanding of the classical American muscle car is that it is a mid-sized car that is fitted with an engine usually found in a full-sized car. Hence the Pontiac Tempest Le Mans GTO was an option pack for the mid-sized Tempest with a big engine from (I'm a bit vague on this) something like a Bonneville. Technically, the Mustang, Camaro, Firebird, etc are Pony Cars, as they are based on or similar in size to "compact" models. However, I wouldn't claim that people building a Mustang, Camaro or Firebird (particularly the high-performance versions) were not building a muscle car.

 

My choice would probably be either a Revell Dodge Charger or Monogram 1970 Plymouth Road Runner. But, if the definition can be stretched, I could build a Ford Falcon pick-up. The kit includes options for a high-power 289 V8, which makes it effectively a Mustang in work boots.

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

14 hours ago, keefr22 said:

OK, I'll tentitively add my name to get the number up, but how actively I can participate depends on how my saving for funds for a new laptop (not another kit!!) goes, as I have no easy and reliable way of uploading pics at the moment.

 

However, I have just read through the whole thread and am a little confuddled as to what is going to be allowed in the various categories. For instance it apppears a Quattro will be - no V8 and 4 wheel drive - so that will surely also qualify Skylines and other JDM 'muscle cars' such as early 2 door Imprezzas? Or even a Ford Focus WRC (other WRC's are available..  ) built as a road car with some back seats stolen from somewhere....

 

And in your last post;

 

 

...that surely qualifies almost every 911, they come in both 2 and 4 wheel drive and apart from RS models have 2 rear ''seats'' (even if you can only fit a small child in them!) 

 

And for those who can afford Alpha Models kits they do a whole range of Aston Martins...

 

Not trying to open a can of worms, just genuinely wouldn't know what to pick out of the stash as I have (often a few!) examples of all of those (except an Alpha Aston!!) - and also a couple of 'genuine' muscle cars (an AMT '70&1/2 Camaro Z28 and a Revell '70 Firebird)

 

Seems that the criteria is drifting away from the original muscle car idea?  

 

As I say, just a little confused.....

 

Keith

Hello Keith, I’m not super knowledgable on the 911’s but that seems to meet the criteria. Though I personally consider the 911 to be a supercar. One of the originals actually. I guess it’s up to sn observer. I shall add you to the list on page 1. 

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

14 hours ago, keefr22 said:

Seems that the criteria is drifting away from the original muscle car idea?  

True but I think a sense thst was meant to happen. I discovered when creating the idea that other nations produced muscle cars that I had not taken into account. So my overall idea is to make a wider global idea of what constitutes a muscle car. Thus the 2-3 categories. Because kids growing up in Europe are more apt to dream about high power local built cars. Versus those built in Detroit. 
 

13 hours ago, szeregowy said:

Tempted to join, but I'm a bit confused, so would like a clarification.

Would this Skyline 2000 GT-R be allowed https://www.scalemates.com/kits/tamiya-24335-nissan-skyline-2000-gt-r--454109?

Yes it is a well know high output car with two doors and 2+2 seating I believe. I don't think it is a traditional four seat coupe. Now if certain models only came with two seats they wouldn't. Shall I add you ? 
 

11 hours ago, tangerine_sedge said:

Food for thought in the last few pages.  The equation for a muscle car is : Big engine + normal road car = fun.

 

When the cars start to become primarily sports cars then they stop being muscle cars.  Therefore Porsche 928=muscle car, Porsche 924/944/911=sports car.

 

That's why something like a Mercedes AMG GT is not a muscle car (in my opinion, despite having a V8 and 2 doors), but a Mercedes AMG C63 is (despite having 4 doors).

Ok Im willing to entertain the discussion ? Here in the states the 924/928/944 were considered the poor mans entry to the Porsche name. Not necessarily sports cars. 
 

10 hours ago, keefr22 said:

Just my two penneth - I think if you ask the majority of car modellers (maybe even car enthusiasts) - 'what is a muscle car?' , the answer would usually be an American car with a big V8 that doesn't handle that well - much like Dennis' original definition in the first post! Ask more specifically 'name some' and I'd think the most answers would be Mustang, Camaro, Firebird.... (& likely Corvette, but that doesn't count!!)

 

Some suggestions (including those I previously mentioned) are stretching the definition...

 

Keith

True but see my answer to you at the top of this post.

 

5 hours ago, johnlambert said:

I'm in, I've got a few suitable kits that I need an excuse to build.

 

My understanding of the classical American muscle car is that it is a mid-sized car that is fitted with an engine usually found in a full-sized car. Hence the Pontiac Tempest Le Mans GTO was an option pack for the mid-sized Tempest with a big engine from (I'm a bit vague on this) something like a Bonneville. Technically, the Mustang, Camaro, Firebird, etc are Pony Cars, as they are based on or similar in size to "compact" models. However, I wouldn't claim that people building a Mustang, Camaro or Firebird (particularly the high-performance versions) were not building a muscle car.

 

My choice would probably be either a Revell Dodge Charger or Monogram 1970 Plymouth Road Runner. But, if the definition can be stretched, I could build a Ford Falcon pick-up. The kit includes options for a high-power 289 V8, which makes it effectively a Mustang in work boots.

I shall add you John, all good choices by the way. 

[szeregowy]

Let's do this, please add me to the list @Corsairfoxfouruncle

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

1 hour ago, szeregowy said:

Let's do this, please add me to the list @Corsairfoxfouruncle

Welcome to the drivers pool. We get so few dedicated car builds as it is. So Im trying. 

[vppelt68]

If we ever get to the group build stage... and we then spend even half as much of our time and energy in actually building the car models, than now discussing what's a muscle car and what's not, this GB will see some tremendous results there 

 

 

[tangerine_sedge]

5 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Welcome to the drivers pool. We get so few dedicated car builds as it is. So Im trying. 

 

Much appreciated - this conversation has been interesting.  I thought I knew what a muscle car was/is, but it's hard to put rules on it.  I'll be in with some US 60s/70's goodness, and look forward to seeing Pony cars, Aussie 4 doors and others too!

 

[TonyW]

I think the general idea is to find a reason to include a car, rather than exclude it. There's a limit to how far you can go with that though. It seems that it's not easy defining a Muscle Car although it's no problem  for each individual to know exactly what a Muscle Car is!

I'm adamant that they started with the first Pontiac GTO and ended in '74 with, fittingly, the Pontiac Super Duty Trans Am. Arguments start right away with my take on it. What about the 409 Chevrolets, the 300 series Chryslers, the 413 Mopars? They all have very good credentials for being included. Early Hudson Hornets should then be added, but somehow they just don't seem right. Rocket 88 Old's blur the lines as well. Is a 289 Mustang a Muscle Car, or should it at least have a big block to qualify?  

As if defining a US built muscle car isn't hard enough, the rest of the worlds input is tailor made for an argument. A '69 Six Pack 440 Dodge Super Bee is most definitely a Muscle Car. It ticks every box. What about a Jensen 440SP though? Let that one in and it's hard to exclude Mopar powered Bristols. and before you know it someone wants to build a Gordon Keeble. Opal did a coupe with a 327 Chevrolet and Corvette rear suspension for a while. Would that fit the criteria? Good luck with finding the kits, but you get the drift. 

Adding 911s to the mix makes excluding Corvettes look a bit odd. On the flip side of that coin, if a big block Corvette was OK then a Turbo 911 should sort of fit. 

 

I think the current proposal of a late/early split is the best we are going to get. It's a simple formula that covers things well. Anomalies can be dealt with as they arise. A bit of common sense with proposed builds wouldn't go amiss, but as I said at the start, the idea would be to include rather than exclude.

Maybe a looser GB title might work. Muscle Cars: USA vs the Rest of the World might get things livened up a bit as well as broadening the appeal.