Info needed on Bf109 G6 W.N.r. 160 000 series

[Edo]

Hello, i'm planning to built a specific Bf 109 G6, W.N.r. 160411, theres no photo of this a/c and i need to make it closest possible to the original plane aspect.

from my research the 160000 - 161000 series where built by the Messerschmitt AG, Regensburg from 8/1943 to 1/1944, the plane was in the classic 74/75/76 scheme with the "low visibility" Balkenkreuz on the fuselage, no DF loop and possibly the yellow coloured oil radiator cowling.

I'm looking for any info to get the visual aspect of the plane to be more realistic as possible, if someone has any additional info it will be greatly appreciated.
Many thanks.

[G.R.Morrison]

Bf 109G-6 WNr.160411 of the II° Gr.C. (Stammkennzeichen: “SN+NS”)

 S.M. Fausto Fornaci KIA 6.Feb. 1945 near Ala/Vicenza in combat with P-47s of the 522 Fighter Squadron, 27th Fighter Group.

References:

Gen.Qu.6.Abt.-BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/766, p.109

The Me109 in Italian Service, p.81

Beale, D'Amico & Valentini, Air War Italy 44-45, p.158

 

Here’s Anders Hjortsberg’s page with the factory-applied camouflage patterns:

theprofilepaintshop.blogspot.com/2013/10/chosing-correct-wingpattern-for-bf109g-6.html

 

I would think that by early 1945 it is probable that it had been refitted with the DF loop.  Spiral-painted spinner likely.  But other markings?

 

GRM

[Graham Boak]

Regensburg-built aircraft often had a distinctive striped application of the darker colour on the fuselage sides, rather than a mottle.  Angled backwards and downwards.

[Edo]

I've found this photo, it's a G6 of the 2nd group of the 2nd squardon of the A.N.R., the W.N.r. is 160614 so it's REALLY close to the Fornaci's Yellow 6 that i'm researching, no DF antenna, it seems there's RLM 74 on the "inside" of the fuselage balkenkreuz and a "standard" '109 74/75 pattern:

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109G/ANR-2Gr/pages/Messerschmitt-Bf-109G6-ANR-2Gr2Sqn-Yellow-8-Stkz-BQ+LE-WNr-160614-Italy-Oct-1944-01.html

If someone has additional info please share

Edited March 3 by Edo
request

[steh2o]

Ciao Edo,

researching W.Nr. 163195 (Messerschmitt) I came to the disturbing evidence that nobody actually knows with some degree of certainty what pattern was applied to the wings of any particular W. Nr. except for rather well documented samples (like Bartels' or Barkhorn's  15909, both ERLA-built anyway).

I'd be tempted to refer to mr. Hjortsberg work which is for sure very well researched- but sure is that the few photographs I have found of other 163xxx aircraft show a rather wide deviation from this pattern. As for the fuselage, the pattern seems to be always more or less the one shown by mr. Hjortsberg although the mottle pattern seems quite variable.

Croce e delizia of German WW2 aircraft!

[Edo]

17 hours ago, steh2o said:

Ciao Edo,

researching W.Nr. 163195 (Messerschmitt) I came to the disturbing evidence that nobody actually knows with some degree of certainty what pattern was applied to the wings of any particular W. Nr. except for rather well documented samples (like Bartels' or Barkhorn's  15909, both ERLA-built anyway).

I'd be tempted to refer to mr. Hjortsberg work which is for sure very well researched- but sure is that the few photographs I have found of other 163xxx aircraft show a rather wide deviation from this pattern. As for the fuselage, the pattern seems to be always more or less the one shown by mr. Hjortsberg although the mottle pattern seems quite variable.

Croce e delizia of German WW2 aircraft!

for the 163xxx series i've found this photo, you might found it useful: https://me109.info/display.php?from=site&lang=en&auth=e&name=&fotonummer=18278

For the wing pattern i think i'm going to follow the same one of the WNr 160639, which is pretty similar to the photo of that i've posted above.

[steh2o]

Ciao Edo, interesting picture, I would swear the wing camo pattern is a classic ERLA (see f.a.e. Barkhorn's 15909) design... is not it 463041, an ERLA built G14?

Edited March 4 by steh2o

[steh2o]

10 hours ago, Edo said:

for the 163xxx series i've found this photo, you might found it useful: https://me109.info/display.php?from=site&lang=en&auth=e&name=&fotonummer=18278

For the wing pattern i think i'm going to follow the same one of the WNr 160639, which is pretty similar to the photo of that i've posted above.

OK I have seen the photograph of 160639 on asisbiz but i really can't make out the wing camo pattern. Are there better pictures showing it?

[Edo]

20 minutes ago, steh2o said:

OK I have seen the photograph of 160639 on asisbiz but i really can't make out the wing camo pattern. Are there better pictures showing it?

Yes but not online from my knowlege, there quite a few on the "Cuore Patria Volo" book that i own.

[Edo]

54 minutes ago, steh2o said:

Ciao Edo, interesting picture, I would swear the wing camo pattern is a classic ERLA (see f.a.e. Barkhorn's 15909) design... is not it 463041, an ERLA built G14?

The G6 pictured on the photo it's an 163xxx Messerschmitt Regensburg produced plane, interesing on the book "Cuore Patria Volo" there some high quality photos (that aren't avalaible online to my knowledge) displaying the WNr. 163312 (RQ+DY) fresh from factory when it was handed over the A.N.R. at Cascina Vaga in the June '44, there's a very good picture taken from "above" the fuselage and  the camo pattern seems to be pretty similar to the 163041 that we've seen above.

The mistey remains with the 160xxx series, expectially on the upper wing

 

[steh2o]

I have seen two pictures of RQ+SY and NF+FD on the Camouflage and markings of the ANR book but sadly they are not of the best quality... so I have to purchase the Cuore patria volo book to have some definite answer! Incidentally, la cascina Vaga is 25 minutes from my home

Edited March 4 by steh2o

[Edo]

13 hours ago, steh2o said:

I have seen two pictures of RQ+SY and NF+FD on the Camouflage and markings of the ANR book but sadly they are not of the best quality... so I have to purchase the Cuore patria volo book to have some definite answer! Incidentally, la cascina Vaga is 25 minutes from my home

Here you go:

https://iili.io/3Fqt25u.jpg

https://iili.io/3Fqt3Ob.jpg 

there was another image i was unable to scan, due to being on two pages

Maybe the upperwing camo of my 160411 should be similar to the one we see on the 163312 that we see in these photos

Edited March 5 by Edo

[steh2o]

grazie Edo!

If we compare mr. Hjortsberg pattern, the presumed 163041 photograph and this one, we have three Mtt. built aircraft with very different wing camo pattern.

163312 looks similar both to 163147

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109G/Stkz/pages/Messerschmitt-Bf-109G6-Stammkennzeichen-Stkz-ST+SK-WNr-163147-abandoned-01.html

and J-704 aka 163245

https://www.flickr.com/photos/153602026@N06/36833932023/

so perhaps I can base my Winkel Dreieck 5 on it!

[steh2o]

Herbert Rollwage Bf-109G-6 is said to be Wr.Nr. 1607xx

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109G/JG53-MTO/pages/Messerschmitt-Bf-109G6-5.JG53-Black-2-Herbert-Rollwage-Gela-10th-Jul-1943-01.html

[G.R.Morrison]

17 minutes ago, steh2o said:

Herbert Rollwage Bf-109G-6 is said to be Wr.Nr. 1607xx

 

Yes, Rollwage's "schwarze 2" was indeed WNr.1607xx, another photo reveals four of the six numerals, the last two obscured by the small dog on the port horizontal stabilizer.

 

I would mistrust captioning on "asisbiz," many have goofs.  The Rollwage photo was taken not in July, but rather in December 1943, and not on Sicily, but at Wien-Seyring.

 

Likewise, a previously linked photo was 463147, a Bf 109G-14

 

GRM

[steh2o]

I linked the asisbiz photograph because it -barely- shows the RH wing camo pattern... it seems to have a broad dark band under the cross and dark wingtip, or am I seeing ghosts?

 

[Edo]

If you're referring to the Rollwage '109 yes it seems the wingtip is in another lighter color with a white "dividing" line.

If you're referring to the 463147, it's seems there's some dark color mottling on the right wingtip, hard to identify the the color.

Edited March 6 by Edo