Hannover CL.III Questions....Lozenge solved....

[Allan31]

So, I know I have issues. To a certain extent, we all do here or else we wouldn't be happy assembling aircraft with rigging while the rest of the model building world is blithely assembling sheet metal aircraft with nary a thought to wood grain effects on propellers or noticing the difference between german and english turnbuckles.  Plenty of room in this rabbit hole.....

 

I thought this well known aircraft would be a good subject to model.

 

 

Looking closely, I started noticing some interesting subtle details that I could find no explanations for.

For instance, why the difference in the top and bottom wing fabric covering? Why is the lozenge pattern on top so much more defined than the bottom? Newer replacement wings with the bottom more faded? Also, why do the rib tapes on the bottom wing appear darker than the top? If pink, I think they would photograph darker or they are a dark grey. I'm thinking older wings taped in pink on the bottom, newer replacement wings taped in grey on top?

 

 

The same is found on the port wings with some added, what looks like repairs to the top and bottom of the bottom wing.

 

 

 

The repaired top of the bottom wing rib tapes appear to be lozenge. On the top wing, why the two wider, different color tapes near the crosses? The rib tapes on both the top AND bottom appear darker than the lozenge fabric. Top of the top wing recovered? Inside wheel covers lower lozenge? Outside wheel covers upper lozenge?

The two diagonal stripes on the top wing, for the gunner to avoid the propeller? What color? Yellow? grey?

 

 

Lastly, clearly this is how the aircraft came to rest with the propeller around the tree.

 

The engine cover on the front directly above the propeller shaft is black or dark green. How and why then did this panel change when the aircraft was moved.

 

Ponder these and I look forward to reading your thoughts.  
Welcome to my rabbit hole. 

Edited February 12 by Allan31
Corrected photo size so as to appear in post.

[Orso]

To me it look like the top wing is tilting forward so the light is reflecting differently on top and lower wing. I think that it is why the lozenge look so different.

[Allan31]

No, I think the top and bottom wings are perfectly parallel to each other, all struts and bracing wires are in correct flying position. That would not account for the different rib tapes.

Edited February 9 by Allan31

[Brandy]

I think you're trying to read far too much into a black and white photo which only shows tones, not colours. As for the wing stripes, my thoughts as a pilot is that they are to help the pilot to know where the prop arc is while on the ground, so he doesn't hit anything (or anyone!). They align more with the pilot's seat, and they give no elevation limits. A physical guard in front of the gunner's cockpit would serve him better.

 

Ian

[Allan31]

The pilot can not see above the wing. The stripes point to the gunners cockpit, not the pilots. What good are stripes on top of the wing when on the ground, everything you will hit is left and right and below the top wing.

 

[RHWinter]

3 hours ago, Allan31 said:

The pilot can not see above the wing. The stripes point to the gunners cockpit, not the pilots. What good are stripes on top of the wing when on the ground, everything you will hit is left and right and below the top wing.

 

Hi Allan! The stripes on the upper wing actually are for the gunner in the back cockpit. He could and did stand up for fireing his MG. So when he shot to the front direction, he stood and looked above the upper wing. The stripes kindly reminded him to not shoot their own propeller. Color of the stripes probably blue - if the film was ortochromatic.

[RHWinter]

On 2/9/2025 at 4:25 PM, Allan31 said:

So, I know I have issues. To a certain extent, we all do here or else we wouldn't be happy assembling aircraft with rigging while the rest of the model building world is blithely assembling sheet metal aircraft with nary a thought to wood grain effects on propellers or noticing the difference between german and english turnbuckles.  Plenty of room in this rabbit hole.....

 

I thought this well known aircraft would be a good subject to model.

 

 

Looking closely, I started noticing some interesting subtle details that I could find no explanations for.

For instance, why the difference in the top and bottom wing fabric covering? Why is the lozenge pattern on top so much more defined than the bottom? Newer replacement wings with the bottom more faded? Also, why do the rib tapes on the bottom wing appear darker than the top? If pink, I think they would photograph darker or they are a dark grey. I'm thinking older wings taped in pink on the bottom, newer replacement wings taped in grey on top?

 

 

The same is found on the port wings with some added, what looks like repairs to the top and bottom of the bottom wing.

 

 

 

The repaired top of the bottom wing rib tapes appear to be lozenge. On the top wing, why the two wider, different color tapes near the crosses? The rib tapes on both the top AND bottom appear darker than the lozenge fabric. Top of the top wing recovered? Inside wheel covers lower lozenge? Outside wheel covers upper lozenge?

The two diagonal stripes on the top wing, for the gunner to avoid the propeller? What color? Yellow? grey?

 

 

Lastly, clearly this is how the aircraft came to rest with the propeller around the tree.

 

The engine cover on the front directly above the propeller shaft is black or dark green. How and why then did this panel change when the aircraft was moved.

 

Ponder these and I look forward to reading your thoughts.  
Welcome to my rabbit hole. 

The covering of the wings was repaired quite often and the stripes of fabric used could have been of different colors. The different look of the Lozenge on the upper and the lower wing: Maybe 5-color-Lozenge (darker) and 4-color-Lozenge (lighter and normally used for the undersides). Then older and newer (repaired) Lozenge. Last not least the engine cover: sure changed - or repainted by the americans? This plane was used for a big press campaign, said to be shot down by Rickenbacker (not) etc. and thus underwent a lot of changes and repainting. There are quite a few pictures of this plane on the www.

For better answers to your questios post here, where‘s the realm of the true specialsts: https://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/

And here‘s some variety of Lozenge:

https://www.aviattic.co.uk/132-lozenge-decals.html

 http://www.wingnutwings.com/ww/product?productid=3024

http://www.wingnutwings.com/ww/product?productid=3025
http://www.wingnutwings.com/ww/product?productid=3027

 

[Paul Thompson]

Lighter (whether 4 or 5 colour) lozenge, meant for the underside only, was oftne used for top surfaces when the darker stuff was in short supply. $ colour was mixed with 5 colour for the same reason. Lastly, rib tapes cpould be several colours, or cut from lozenge bolts. Their applications was similarly subject to transgressing the rules.  Regarding the photos showing the lower wings clearly lighter, considering the knock the top wing must have taken I think it's simply shifted a bit, so the incidence is slightly different to that of the lower wings, and is reflecting less light. Lozenge can be glared out in orthochrome phos quite easily when you can't get the exposure right for both wings, which is why it isn't even clear in many period shots if it's 4 or 5 colour.  The simplest explanation for the darker rib tapes visible on the top of the port lower wing, since they look blotchy to me, is if this is cut from lozenge while the top wing uses blue, pink or CDL. Lozenge tapes could be cut and matched to the bolt pattern to the extent they could be very hard to see, but that only happened when there was both time and material enough.

 

Also bear in mind (for any casual reader who doesn't know) that the upper wing centre section, lower tailplane and all the fuselage except the cowling panels was plywood with fabric doped on top, usually painted with larger lozenges to match the original fabric, but then often oversprayed with (usually) Prussian blue, so don't be mislead by the darker finish. Definitely a wormy smell to the contents of this can. This is based on my dim memory of reading before I built my last (Eduard) one, but I've just looked at the Wingnut kit instructions for slightly more up to date (and joined up) thinking, and I suggest everyone should read the introduction to the instruction sheet ehich sums it all up. http://www.wingnutwings.com/ww/v98C7274C/www/products/model_kitsets/32024/online_instructions/32024 Hannover Cl.II Instructions.pdf

 

 

Paul.

 

P.S. Datafile 168, page 11, aerial photo from above of a Hannover with a large number 6 on the fuselage. Same type of upper wing markings, described as being to remind the observer not to shoot at the propellor.

Edited February 12 by Paul Thompson
P.S.

[Allan31]

Thanks RH and Paul,

I was hoping you would chime in Paul.

I've been staring at these for days and only after reading this post this morning, I finally saw the pattern I was looking for.

 

 

 

No idea why I couldn't see it before. 

The top wing is clearly 5 color chord-wise not diagonal. I'm fine finding these little repeats on the bottom wing to tell me the top of the bottoms are 5 color as well.

Since the tops are 5 color, I will a$$/u/me the bottoms of the wings are covered in 5 color as well.

To account for the different rib tapes, I'm thinking replacement wings. I thought I read the colored tapes were used first and latre adopted the grey or natual linen colored tapes.

But why the different colored tapes on either side of the crosses? The rib tapes by the crosses are wider and lighter on the top wing, perhaps light blue. Both are on wing ribs that connect to a hinge. I suspect there is a third wide tape hidden under the black paint of the cross.

THANKS EVERYONE for the input I needed to help me "see".

Edited February 12 by Allan31