Avro Lancaster camouflage question

[Johnson]

Hi Folks,

 

I'm putting the finishing touches to my 1/72 Airfix 'Dambuster' Lancaster camouflage paint and I've just bought the very useful Wingleader 'Modeller's Special' Dambuster Lancaster book;

 

https://wingleader.co.uk/books/damlancwms/

 

It's probably a trivial question, but the model in the book has Dark Green on the engine cowls, like so;

 

It kind of makes sense considering the other Dark Green areas on the wings.

 

The profiles I have, and other builds, are either just all Dark Earth on the engines, or as I've painted above, green on the inner port. Period photos, the ones I've found, don't show these areas very clearly.

 

If I'm going to add more paint, easy at this stage, I'd rather do it now.

 

Any opinions? Dark Earth or Dark Green engine cowls?

 

Thanks,

 

Charlie

 

[fubar57]

I'm not an authority on Lancasters but I did stay at a Holiday Inn once. AML has the tops D.E.. Photos in the few books I just looked at show either/or, half and half

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, Johnson said:

Period photos, the ones I've found, don't show these areas very clearly.

 

 

It may vary by date and factory, but this one is Dark Earth.

@woody37 ? @tomprobert ?

 

In the past there have been threads on Lanc exhaust stains which may help.   I'll link in later if I refind  them.

[Johnson]

Great photo Troy @Troy Smith.

 

Found this, photo by Charles Brown;

 

 

Nearest engine Dark Green at front, next Dark Green rear, 3 hidden, 4 - Dark Green?

 

I think this is going to be one of those inconclusive ones. I'll go for green.

 

Charlie

 

[stever219]

A quick scan of the instructions for the 1980s Airfix Lancaster shows all upper cowling panels as Dark Earth overall

There is an area of Dark Green on the wing behind number 2 engine but this is "cut off" to roughly follow the line if the leadng edge.  The instructions for the current-issue Dambusters kit shows an almost identical arrangement.

Edited February 1 by stever219
Carnt spel

[Graham Boak]

I understand that the engines and nacelles were RR supplied power eggs, so they would all be painted the same.  Similarly the FW190D had their Jumos and forward cowlings supplied by Junkers so they were in RLM 70 regardless of the later colours on the rest of the airframe.   The use of power eggs was popular with engine suppliers because it provided them with more work and hence more profit, and unpopular with airframe manufacturers for the obvious reverse.  Also it would restrict the interface and constrain the designers possibly affecting the ideal shape and the performance.  As DH demonstrated with the Mosquito.  Which is why they were rarely seen on fighters.

 

[Dave Swindell]

12 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

I understand that the engines and nacelles were RR supplied power eggs,

Did RR assemble the power eggs for the MK.III with Packard Merlins as well, or was that sub contract work?

[Graham Boak]

Pass.   I suspect the cowlings may have been subcontract work anyway, but the mountings are (perhaps) RR.  RR were pushing for power eggs which did include the mountings on everything they could.  You can see the same nacelle on the Beaufighter, though this must have required a redesign of the interface.  Also. at least superficially, on the single Halifax Mk.II ser.2, but this was a new installation altogether.  The book "RR and the Halifax" blames the drag problems of the Merlin Halifax on HP not adopting their design, although this doesn't seen to fit the project timescales involved: the Manchester to the same timescale used the same Gallay radiators as the Halifax and Whitley.   The key drag problem of the Halifax installation came from the high mounting of the engine: the Lancaster benefitted from an RAE study which came just too late for the Halifax.  Technologies were moving at a rapid pace in this period as ideas found ready finance.

 

Power eggs were a common approach amongst engine manufacturers, and popular with the services for the ease of engine changing.  Late in the war the RLM were pushing for the He219 installation to be fitted to Arado project work and presumably on Junkers designs.  You can already see the easy interchangeability of German engines on the Do.217, Ju.88, He.111 and Fw.190/Ta.152.   This does have to be designed in at an early stage.

[tomprobert]

I’ve just checked the Tamiya instructions for their venerable 1/48 Lanc and it is more or less identical to how @Johnson has painted above. All four nacelles in Dark Earth, with the demarcation on the port inner being where the upper cowling panel join is - fully supporting @Graham Boak’s power egg information…

[Graham Boak]

Or at least subcontracted.

[Phoenix44]

I'd say, it varied. The cropped photo below is the starboard outer of the Dambuster photo, which suggests DE with DG inboard. But then there's the shot from inside a Lancaster that clearly shows DE on the inner starboard but is that DG on the outer? The other three examples show clear variation:

Edited February 2 by Phoenix44

[Johnson]

2 hours ago, Phoenix44 said:

I'd say, it varied.

 

I think that probably sums it up.

 

Thank you all.

 

Charlie

 

[Mike Starmer]

The diagram issued for 4 engined aircraft is A.D.1161.   Both KM-B and EM-F  are mirror images of the 1939  diagram and thus correctly painted allowing for A & B handed patterns then in vogue.  Therefore  RE-172 is correct apart from the engine cowlings   It may be that the later production machines were allowed this concession for convenience.    On your model the outer port nacelle should have the outboard section of the cowling green. the inner port should all green, the starboard inner should have the inboard face green and the outer nacelle the outboard side mostly green.   Be aware that all RAF aircraft were painted in accordance with Air Diagrams evolved by the RAE in the 1930s and remained in force, albeit with slight amendments, from 1938 until the 1946.  Not all kit manufactures know this.

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Not sure if this helps or not.  The Ministry of Aircraft Production monthly Statistical Bulletin has a table for Engine Production and another for Power Plant Production.

 

In July 1943 engine production is 546 Merlin 22, 694 Hercules XVI and 438 Hercules XVI.  Power Plant production is,

Merlin 22 for York, 7 Rolls Royce Ilkeston, 8 Morris Motors
Merlin 22 for Lancaster I, 97 Alvis, 6 Rolls Royce Ilkeston, 4 Crossley Premier and Rolls Royce Long Easton, 186 Morris Motors
Merlin 28 for Lancaster III, 51 Rolls Royce Ilkeston, 33 Crossley Premier and Rolls Royce Long Easton, 45 Alvis, 268 Morris Motors
Merlin 38 for Lancaster III, 4 Rolls Royce Ilkeston, 11 Crossley Premier and Rolls Royce Long Easton
Griffon II for Firefly, 8 Sunbeam Talbot
Hercules XVI for Lancaster II, Stirling III, Halifax III, 125 Bristol (Parent), 136 Shadow Groups, 113 Bristol Accrington
Cyclone for Albemarle IV, 26 Popjoy Motors

 

The report also has a Power Plant Production table starting in January 1942, unfortunately is it weekly averages, months are either exactly 4 or 5 weeks, total production for the period is divided by the number of weeks and rounded.  Merlin XX for Lancaster is 29 in January 1942, climbs to 100 in October, then stops in March 1943, Merlin 22 starts in July 1943 with 60, Merlin 28 for Lancaster starts in August 1942, with 96 in July 1943.  Hercules start with 1 in February 1942, gets to 14 in July, the builds, passing 100 in January 1943, Hercules VI stops in April 1943, Hercules XVI is 86 in July 1943.  There is an "others" column, running close to 100 a month in early 1942, down to 1 in December.

 

Looking at the January 1944 report, Merlin 22 is giving way to Merlin 24, Merlin 28 to 38.  Moving on another 6 months, cumulative Power Plant Production to 29 July 1944

Merlin X for Wellington II, 880 Alvis
Merlin XX for Lancaster I, 928 Alvis, 428 Rolls Royce Ilkeston, 276 Rolls Royce Long Easton, 2,142 Morris Motors
Merlin XX for Beaufighter II, 200 Rolls Royce Ilkeston, 821 Morris Motors (450 Beaufighter II built)
Merlin 22 for Lancaster I, 357 Alvis, 206 Rolls Royce Ilkeston, 29 Rolls Royce Long Easton, 789 Morris Motors
Merlin 22 for Lancaster I, 357 Alvis, 206 Rolls Royce Ilkeston, 29 Rolls Royce Long Easton, 789 Morris Motors
Merlin 22 for York I, 171 Rolls Royce Ilkeston, 159 Morris Motors (Only 22 York built to end July 1944)
Merlin 24 for Lancaster I, 905 Alvis, 8 Rolls Royce Ilkeston, 262 Rolls Royce Long Easton, 1,671 Morris Motors
Merlin 28 for Lancaster III, 1,084 Alvis, 711 Rolls Royce Ilkeston, 316 Rolls Royce Long Easton, 2,121 Morris Motors
Merlin 38 for Lancaster III, 1,569 Alvis, 787 Rolls Royce Ilkeston, 444 Rolls Royce Long Easton, 3,283 Morris Motors
Merlin 85 for Lancaster IV, V, 26 Rolls Royce Hucknall
Griffon II for Firefly I, NF.II, 344 Sunbeam-Talbot
Hercules VI for Stirling III and Lancaster II, 823 Bristol (Parent), 1,618 Shadow Groups, 660 Bristol Accrington
Hercules XI for Stirling I and Albemarle I, 1,181 Bristol (Parent), 1,110 Shadow Groups, 1,359 Bristol Accrington
Hercules XVI for Stirling III, IV, V, Halifax III and Lancaster II, 2,217 Bristol (Parent), 6,042 Shadow Groups, 2,090 Bristol Accrington
Hercules 100 for Halifax VI, 80 Bristol (Parent), 8 Shadow Groups (2 mark VI prototypes/pre production in January 1944, series production started with 1 in July 1944)

 

If these are what others call Power Eggs, then do all contractors supply cowlings and are all cowlings with the same paint scheme?  US engines treated differently to UK ones?  The Dambuster aircraft were mark III.  And of course how interchangeable were the cowlings between engine positions anyway?

Edited February 3 by Geoffrey Sinclair
Beaufighter production figures added,

[Johnson]

9 hours ago, Mike Starmer said:

On your model the outer port nacelle should have the outboard section of the cowling green. the inner port should all green, the starboard inner should have the inboard face green and the outer nacelle the outboard side mostly green.

 

@Mike Starmer - Like this?

 

 

I can see the logic of it apart from the stbd outer. You don't happen to have the actual diagram by any chance? Google searches for 'diagram for 4 engined RAF WW2 aircraft A.D.1161' didn't get any plans or diagrams.

[Troy Smith]

On 03/02/2025 at 22:25, Johnson said:

. You don't happen to have the actual diagram by any chance? Google searches for 'diagram for 4 engined RAF WW2 aircraft A.D.1161' didn't get any plans or diagrams.

 

this book

available here as a pdf

https://www.seawings.co.uk/images/colour charts/British Aviation Colours of WWII.pdf

 

page 50 has a generic pattern for 4 engine types, this is what I mean

 

HTH

[Seawinder]

Just for the record it's page 46 in the linked PDF.

[Johnson]

Thanks Troy & Seawinder.

 

Interesting to note that the scheme for 4 engined aircraft is reversed.

 

 

[Troy Smith]

6 hours ago, Johnson said:

Interesting to note that the scheme for 4 engined aircraft is reversed.

the A/B versions are just mirror images of each other.   After 1941 just one pattern was used.  

[Mike Starmer]

The four engined drawing is A.D1161.  Just follow that.

[Graham Boak]

Each manufacturer would produce their own painting drawing which followed the lines of A.D1161 but not each exact wiggle.  That's why photos showing the plan view are so helpful.