scautomoton Posted January 10 Posted January 10 So I must be mad. As if I didn't already have enough other builds on the go, a few days ago I was finally progressing with the F.53 and then glanced up at the shelf with my F.155T offerings on it. I then went and confirmed what I was thinking by having a quick flick through Cold War Interceptor. Yup, the EE P.8 was supposed to effectively use as much existing Lightning hardware as possible, with changes limited to an area-ruled body, larger intake and bigger radar, fully convergent-divergent exhaust nozzles, and redesigned undercarriage which combined with the larger volume fuselage meant a much needed range increase. I think you can see where I'm going with this. I'm going to design this so it can use as many bits from an existing Lightning kit as possible, similar to something like the Aeroclub P.1 offering. My donor kit of choice will be an Airfix F.2A/F.6 (I have a few kicking about, plus spares). The hope is that this will be a considerably quicker effort than the AW.169 was..... So, for those who aren't familiar, here is the image from the submission brochure (slick artwork if I do say so myself): As mentioned, superficially, not that different from what (at the time) the RAF were just getting into service. It really should have been the obvious answer, but the RAF wanted cutting-edge unobtanium rather than something which could actually enter service on the required date. Anyway, enough armchair analysis. How do we make this thing? So, starting with my trusty nemesis Fusion 360, I added the 3 views to a canvas and scaled to size (1/72 in this case). I made the mistake of drawing the AW.169 full size and its annoying re-scaling every time I wanted to send it to the Slicer. My preferred route forward is to generate a wireframe of the fuselage before surfacing it and then thickening it into a component. In Fusion this is an utter PITA. Even when all the lines correctly intersect, and dimensions are strictly toleranced, it won't let you just surface the way you see it, oh no, you have to try at least a dozen different approaches until you find something that Fusion deigns to allow. And allow just the once mind, if you try it a second time there's some spurious yellow or red warning about coincident references, or overlapping this, or missing that. It really has been coded by people who never use it for what it's intended. Anyway, I digress. It's crap, the end. So, as I was saying, fuselage: What you're looking at is the result of many (to the power of many) hours of frustration with the muppets at Autodesk, Sorry, it just slipped out. It took a while is what I meant. So you can see where I hope to use bits from the Airfix kit in lieu of printing new parts. The elevators will be used, as will the tail fin (I expect if the P.8 had entered service it would have received the larger, square version), Hopefully the airbrakes will match the curvature of the fuselage. The nose wheel (and main wheels but not undercarriage) will be reused, as will things like missiles, compressor face, exhaust internals, and obviously decals (although I still don't know what scheme to go with). I'm hoping the entire cockpit will be useable too. Certainly the ejector seat and pilot will be. I'm still of two minds about adding the arrestor hook. The canopy will be a vacuformed affair which will need careful consideration. I like them to have a bit of a flange so it can be blended in nicely, I hate having to butt the edges together and fill them, so fiddly and tedious. In the interests of ensuring the wings from the Airfix kit were viable, early on I printed a couple of test-pieces with the wing root needed to account for the fuselage profiling. Below is an early print and where the model is currently. The Inlet ducting is also essentially complete. And I've added some feasible detail to the front wheel bay and door. The nose wheel would have retracted aft and rotated through 90 degrees. And this brings us to where I am currently. I'm staring down the barrel of designing the rear undercarriage, which is very Jaguar-esqe. And thus finicky to draw, but I'll get there. Finally, I've got the design as it stands printing as I write this so I can trial fit everything. Which means inevitable pain beating Fusion into making changes without forgetting all the references. Thats it for now, tune in next time for continued whingeing about Fusion, an update on how much wine I've consumed. and more excuses relating to the world in general. Stuart 23 3
Gondor44 Posted January 10 Posted January 10 That looks very nice. I may have to throw some money in your direction in the future. Gondor
The wooksta V2.0 Posted January 10 Posted January 10 Despite my current ban on buying anything - I have far to much for one lifetime (of a Timelord) as it is - I may well have to break open the piggy bank containing coppers and washers dragged from the back of the settee for at least one of these. And if it's designed to take an Airfix F2A/F6 wing, perhaps a Freightdog VG wing will fit too. Will you be going to the Bolton show next Sunday (19th Jan)? I definitely have cash waiting. Any possibility of doing an EE P.6 conversion or the two seat P.8 to follow? 1
scautomoton Posted January 10 Author Posted January 10 13 minutes ago, The wooksta V2.0 said: Despite my current ban on buying anything - I have far to much for one lifetime (of a Timelord) as it is - I may well have to break open the piggy bank containing coppers and washers dragged from the back of the settee for at least one of these. And if it's designed to take an Airfix F2A/F6 wing, perhaps a Freightdog VG wing will fit too. Will you be going to the Bolton show next Sunday (19th Jan)? I definitely have cash waiting. Any possibility of doing an EE P.6 conversion or the two seat P.8 to follow? Oooooo, you're a bad, bad man I just dug a VG wing out and with a bit of finessing it fits. Obviously its a few mm longer than the Airfix moulding, but nothing a bit of sanding won't fix. The two seater is feasible, it would just be a different front fuselage section, and additional canopy and seating area. The P6 is a bigger task, it may not be quick and easy to redraw the rear end. With the way Fusion works it tends to lose references really easily, and especially if you go back to the start of a timeline and alter an early action. It tends to bugger up soooooo many thing downstream. Its very annoying. Its not very good at being parametric. But never say never. Its early days I'm afraid, there's no way I'll have anything available by next weekend. I've literally just done the first test print, and there are lots of initial changes needed. And I've not even started the panel lines yet! TBH, after this I fully intend to crack on with the Shorts PD.17. I have started drawing it in Fusion, I just haven't started a WIP yet. Maybe I should so I have an excuse to pull my finger out. 1
The wooksta V2.0 Posted January 11 Posted January 11 From looking at the drawings in the Dan Sharp bookazine, the two seater looks like EE simply shoved the cockpit forward and crammed the radar bloke in the cramped space behind. I don't think it's a longer airframe. P6 is an entirely different airframe, albeit keeping a P1B wing, being a simple tube with an engine in it. There's no trace of area rule in it at all. Although the proposed Olympus engined version apparently did have a bulged back end, making it look even more like an Su 7 than it does anyway. I've not seen any drawings, but I know a man who says he has.
The wooksta V2.0 Posted January 11 Posted January 11 One other thing. I'd do the smaller fin intended for it. Assuming you're intending on selling these as conversion kits (and I think you've at least a dozen buyers straight off), it might be best to add the small early P.1B and Lightning F1 fins. Give the buyer as much choice as possible, so you'd have prototype, early and late by using the kit fin.
scautomoton Posted January 15 Author Posted January 15 We have physical parts! Well, we've had them printing for a week or so, but we have had a few iterations of parts. Handily, not as many as when I did the AW.169, but then that's the idea here. So, the vast bulk of time taken on this is making the minor iterative changes to get everything to fit together nicely once printed. The difficulty with that lies in the fact that Fusion is awful at being parametric. It simply cannot maintain the simplest of links or references when you go back and make changes. So you end up spending several hours repeating exactly the same tasks. It's just not cut out for this sort of work. Small widgets etc, it's fine. But as soon as you get into multiple parts where everything is linked, it just falls over any time you want to make a change early in the timeline. As can be seen below, I ended up with several lists of changes..... Right, enough Fusion bashing. I know you want to see the goods. Here are the print iterations thus far: So, as I write this I have another iteration to print for proof of fit, dimensional accuracy, tolerance etc. Then its on to missile rails, exhaust nozzles, panel lines, making the canopy mould, and a handful of smaller details I've not modelled yet. You can see a selection of the Airfix kit parts which are intended to be sacrificed liberated from the donor kit below. A few of them require some modification, a bit of sanding, and some gentle persuasion, but isn't that what this hobby is all about? Er, right then. And here are a few pics of the various parts, along with a plan view of the fuselage to show the quite exaggerated area ruling the EE proposed. 19 2
HPoirot Posted January 16 Posted January 16 Seen from the top, I wonder if the lateral expansion of the rear fuselage may be a bit on the large side? For area ruling purposes, the vertical fin would already be playing a role there, helping with the transition from the section impacted by the wing to the one where the horizontal taiplane has an effect. Would that seem to make sense?
Mancunian airman Posted January 16 Posted January 16 I am just in awe of you guys that can not only draw the designs but also to transfer them to create a solid piece onto which you can blend parts together and build a recognisable aircraft . .. Well done, I shall follow with interest . . . 3
scautomoton Posted January 16 Author Posted January 16 5 hours ago, HPoirot said: Seen from the top, I wonder if the lateral expansion of the rear fuselage may be a bit on the large side? For area ruling purposes, the vertical fin would already be playing a role there, helping with the transition from the section impacted by the wing to the one where the horizontal taiplane has an effect. Would that seem to make sense? You have to remember that the belly bulge contributed to the inadvertent area ruling of the Lightning, so the P.8 doesn't seem disproportionate to me really 1
HPoirot Posted January 16 Posted January 16 3 hours ago, scautomoton said: You have to remember that the belly bulge contributed to the inadvertent area ruling of the Lightning, so the P.8 doesn't seem disproportionate to me really Ah indeed, on the Mk.6 especially that was quite impressive!
scautomoton Posted January 18 Author Posted January 18 So somewhat annoyingly, I was in the middle of finalising all the panel lines when I noticed that the dorsal surface had an odd ridge in it. And invariably, this surface was one of the first things done, meaning that as usual the fix means Fusion recalculates everything and loses various references which aren't even affected by the change..... So I'm having to go all the way through the model step by step to fix all the breaks. Tedious. Extremely tedious. There was some choice language.... Next time I'm using SOLIDWORKS. But otherwise I'm very close to the final print..... He says..... 3 1
scautomoton Posted January 20 Author Posted January 20 All CAD is now done*. I gratuitously copied the panel line scheme from the real Lightning, but with allowances made for the location of the different HW etc. This time I also went with a different method for the panel lines, creating a negative of the grooves. I drew the line scheme on the reference planes, offset every line by 0.15mm, then projected onto the body surfaces. I then patched the line gaps to create a surface, and turned those into a 0.15mm deep body which I then used to pocket the body surface, thus leaving behind the panel line grooves. It was tedious, and very time consuming, but it appears to be a lot more robust than sweeping a profile along a line, since Fusion loses the reference for them for no obvious reason. Next is to play with print settings to try to eliminate some of the blooming and steps. I suspect I'm not letting my print enclosure get up to temperature fully, as well as my initial lift speed being too high. (* canopy vacuum mould still to do, plus I reserve the right to get suitably anal and start adding NACA ducts etc to it.....) Stuart 11
Fishbed Posted January 23 Posted January 23 On 1/20/2025 at 1:05 PM, scautomoton said: I gratuitously copied the panel line scheme from the real Lightning, but with allowances made for the location of the different HW etc. This time I also went with a different method for the panel lines, creating a negative of the grooves. I drew the line scheme on the reference planes, offset every line by 0.15mm, then projected onto the body surfaces. I then patched the line gaps to create a surface, and turned those into a 0.15mm deep body which I then used to pocket the body surface, thus leaving behind the panel line grooves. It was tedious, and very time consuming, but it appears to be a lot more robust than sweeping a profile along a line, since Fusion loses the reference for them for no obvious reason. I wonder if google translate will turn this into something I could understand? I'd love to be able to do this CAD stuff, but not sure I have the time to learn a new language! Tim Impressive work by the way, going look great when its done 1 2 1
woody37 Posted January 23 Posted January 23 8 hours ago, Fishbed said: I wonder if google translate will turn this into something I could understand? I'd love to be able to do this CAD stuff, but not sure I have the time to learn a new language! With you on that, I just love seeing this magic happen! 1
Karearea Posted January 23 Posted January 23 Superb work- I used CAD quite comprehensively years ago, and even participated in the Fusion 360 Beta trial a decade (!) or so ago. I remember hating the history feature so much I had it permanently disabled and just modelled directly. I did quite like the mesh > t-splines approach, built up quite a useful workflow from Blender to Fusion 360. This sort of project makes me want to reskill as a foil to the less exciting stuff I do in my day job now. If applicable, I’m quite interested to see how you resolve the wingtip hard points- I think they will have a fairly pronounced effect on the overall aesthetic. 1
TeeELL Posted January 23 Posted January 23 I am about to stick my neck out…….. This is based on my own mistakes/experiences. When you identify an error that needs addressing, do you roll back the history marker to where you need to make the change?
scautomoton Posted January 23 Author Posted January 23 1 hour ago, TeeELL said: I am about to stick my neck out…….. This is based on my own mistakes/experiences. When you identify an error that needs addressing, do you roll back the history marker to where you need to make the change? It depends what it is really. Obviously you have to get so far with the design before there is something you can print. Then it depends what ends up on the snagging list. The majority of the issues I have are the limits of Fusion's capability. Like when it refuses to offset a face for no obvious reason, so you have to go back and change the thickness of a surface for instance. And obviously converting the original surface to a body is one of the earliest tasks... In this instance I'm trying to use existing kit parts which I don't have CAD for, so there has been a lot of minor iterative tweaking of shapes and profiles. Unfortunately, most of those bits are very early in the design, so involve rolling the history back and making changes before printing, then having to rinse and repeat a number of times until the fit and finish is right. I think a lot of it is also me pushing the limits of what my printer can deliver in terms of resolution and detail. The tensile strength limit of the resin. The actual limits of what can physically be printed using SLA methods. And then my own desire for the quality, fit and finish, and method of assembly of the model parts. Having been through it now, in the future I would design the interface surfaces for existing parts first to get the shape and dimension right, and then use them as a cutting volume. It's actually taken almost as long to do this one as it took for the AW.169. and that was an entire airframe, not just a fuselage... Anyway, I've got SOLIDWORKS now, so the next one will be done with that. It's been nearly 20 years since I last touched it, but I remember it being a much more complete package which is actually fit for purpose. Beyond that I still have a copy of CATIA 2005 on a CD somewhere! .....
The wooksta V2.0 Posted January 23 Posted January 23 Some fantastic work there and I'd be happy to shell out for what you've done so far.
scautomoton Posted January 26 Author Posted January 26 I hate a resin printer as no man has before. Actually, that's not really true, just more than most. After an extended recalibration of my print settings, I've printed out enough parts to build about 10 P.8s. However, after all those iterations I've reached the point where: A - the detail, fit and surface finish is about as good as its going to get (I have a Mono X2 which has a pixel size of 50µm). All the parts need is a very light sand before polishing. B - I have trial fitted pretty much everything apart from..... C - the pitot which I completely forgot! Idiot.... On the first point I plan to purchase an Elegoo Saturn 4 Ultra in the coming months. On that last point, I think I'm going to simply put a little nubbin in the usual Lightning location, with a hole sized for the Masters metal pitot. Then it can simply be drilled out for whatever anyone wants to use instead. So there will be one last update to the front fuselage section to cover this. Otherwise I'm now at the point where I can think about starting to paint and assemble bits. During the seemingly endless "Groundhog Day" routine that was print, CAD tweak, print, etc I did most of the Airfix-parts fettling as I went (for obvious reasons). The sum of all parts can be seen below (minus one Red Top, the pitot, control stick, and the funny box that sits on the turtle deck): As you can see, I managed to keep the new parts list (in dark grey) down to fuselage, inlet and cone, rear undercarriage, exhaust nozzles, and a variety of door options. Which means all the rest is plundered donated from the recent Airfix F.2A or F.6 boxings. Albeit with greater or lesser fettling to make fit. But its all reasonable. I've previously assembled one side of the undercarriage. To do so requires taking the Airfix support strut and hacking cutting it up to make a support strut for the new main strut, and a small damper for the bogie. Also the front wheel/strut needs the triangular door support trimming. Onto the new stuff. Lets start with the cockpit.... The cockpit needs the rear bulkhead cutting off at the bottom of the turtle deck box hole, and the front bulkhead needs shortening with a more aggressive taper forward of the instrument panel (which can't be seen anyway). The sides just need to be shown to some sandpaper for a snug fit. The underside needs the horizontal locating ribs removing, and the instrument panel needs about 0.5mm relieving from the top edge but with the cut face angled downwards towards the front, and the corners rounding again. The image above makes it look quite aggressive, but when viewed from the pilot's POV its not so severe. This allows the Airfix coaming to be used. The coaming needs a light chamfer on the underside edges where they contact the instrument panel. All of the above gives us this: The cockpit sits snug on the locating tangs of the inlet duct. In fact, once assembled with the front fuselage it doesn't need glueing (well, if trimmed nicely, YMMV). And for reference, here is how much larger the inlet was proposed to be over the real Lightning. Anyway, back on track. All of the previous mods allow the inlet/cockpit assembly to slide into the front fuselage from the rear like a cartridge. And, when the coaming is added, gives us this: The fuselage features the start of the coaming surface but with a step to allow the existing part to sit flush. This is easier than trying to print and fettle something which is already good enough. Next I decided to start on the wings. I'd already glued them together for fitting trials, but hadn't started the missile rail change. I started by cutting along the outermost panel line/join with a 0.1mm saw. Handily, the edge of the lower wing surface acts as a guide, so its relatively easy to get a clean cut. I incorporated a couple of 0.5mm holes in the mating face of the missile rails so that some wire can be used to create a stronger joint when they are attached. I simply held the rail next to the wingtip and eyeballed the hole location. And voila, it all aligns beautifully (he says....). The tail fin was cut from the Airfix fuselage along the base and a line extending from the leading edge to the base. Then the same principle was used for the tail fin as for the missile rails. I put a couple of 1mm holes in the rear fuselage so it can be attached more robustly using wire. I've also made a mould to vacuform a canopy. Last time I did this I magically got it nag on for size at the first attempt. Imagine if it were to happen again! Cue angelic music and general amazement all round. I'm fully expecting it to be annoyingly out of shape in all directions. You can see I also deviated from the drawings regarding the glazing. In one of my references it mentions that Beaumont was adamant it would need better all round vision, so I went with something more akin to existing Lightning. And that's as far as I've got really. Next step is painting the cockpit, inlet duct & compressor, rear undercarriage & their bays, and assembling them permanently into the main fuselage before sealing it up. Then its sanding, priming and polishing since its obviously going to be NMF! Sqn undecided so far, but in my world of "What If?..." it probably would have supplanted the real F3, so I'm thinking of any F3 squadron. Preferably not one of the usual suspects since I plan to build the various Lightning schemes, so don't want a sea of red & white check etc. I think maybe 23 Sqn, with the white tail, something subtle since I have some very colourful stuff planned for other builds. Finally, I couldn't resist one photo of the main bits together. 11 2
PeteH1969 Posted January 26 Posted January 26 Great work, great printing. Can I suggest that you give the glazing puck several coats of automotive clear coat paint several coats should fill the printing steps and give you a very good hard surface finished part to vac form from. Pete
scautomoton Posted January 26 Author Posted January 26 35 minutes ago, PeteH1969 said: Great work, great printing. Can I suggest that you give the glazing puck several coats of automotive clear coat paint several coats should fill the printing steps and give you a very good hard surface finished part to vac form from. Pete Yes it's what I typically do 2
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