ed-209 Posted January 9 Posted January 9 Good evening all I am currently building a 1987 boxing of airfix sunderland and the painting instructions give airfix numbers M2 slate gray and M17 dark green On the box side it gives humbrol numbers 27 sea gray 86 olive green If you look at the instructions from the 2012 boxing it lists 32 dark gray and 102 army green Any thoughts to which if any a correct would be greatfully received Iv tried looking for photos of this scheme but the only one I could find is it in white and grey with no top turret I would be interested in any information on this aircraft thanks and thanks for looking
Troy Smith Posted January 9 Posted January 9 (edited) 37 minutes ago, ed-209 said: would be interested in any information on this aircraft thanks @LDSModeller 37 minutes ago, ed-209 said: M2 slate gray and M17 dark green On the box side it gives humbrol numbers 27 sea gray 86 olive green If you look at the instructions from the 2012 boxing it lists 32 dark gray and 102 army green Any thoughts to which if any a correct would be greatfully received Ignore model paint call outs. Airfix and Humbrol are the closest in the range. AFAIK this Temperate Sea Scheme upper surface, Extra Dark Sea Grey and Dark Slate Grey (which is a greeny grey) These are the actual official colour names. Or do you prefer Humbrol paint? PS wartime colour pic, this is pre May 1942, but shows the TSS colours well. Says 1945, good for grungey looking white.. More colour here https://www.flickr.com/search/?user_id=8270787%40N07&view_all=1&text=sunderland Edited January 9 by Troy Smith Add pics 1
Graham Boak Posted January 9 Posted January 9 The correct names of the colours will be Extra Dark Sea Grey (EDSG) and Dark Slate Grey (DSG), the latter being greenish. This was known as the Temperate Sea Scheme (TSS) and initially was carried down the sides of the aircraft. It was then thought that, for low visibility against the sky and cloud, white would be more appropriate for the sides and bottom, so the demarcation rose to the top of the fuselage. This in turn was replaced by only EDSG in the purely plan view. This colour fairly rapidly faded from a very dark colour when new to a much lighter one. If you are modelling it as 2G as on the standard transfer sheet then the last scheme is the most probable, though depending upon the date it could be the middle option. The Airfix instructions were always tied to the paint company owned by their owners, initially Airfix and then Humbrol, and quoted the nearest approximation in their range even when this was not very close. One further subtlety is that both matt white and gloss white featured in the scheme, one for the sides and the other for the bottom - to my chagrin I can't remember which for sure and don't have the information to hand... someone will post it. Edit: One second, Troy! 1 1
Ossington 2 Posted January 9 Posted January 9 Matt sides and gloss underwings I think. White Shackletons used this too. Matt white stops glint esp. in low sun and gloss bounces light under wings, tailplanes, engine nacelles etc. helping to 'blend out' shadow shading. 1
LDSModeller Posted January 9 Posted January 9 (edited) 58 minutes ago, ed-209 said: I would be interested in any information on this aircraft thanks and thanks for looking Colours Per @Troy Smith and @Graham Boak posts above Scale mates site Airfix Short Sunderland Mk III (link below) Airfix Short Sunderland 1987 Gives the marking for a 423 Squadron (Canadian) Sunderland DD867 Coded 2-G Per the Book "Ocean Sentinel - Short Sunderland" Short Sunderland Mk III DD867 built by Blackburn Aircraft Ltd - Dumbarton (Contract B.37753/40/C.2(b)) To 10 Sqn (RAAF) then to 423 Sqn coded 3-G, 20August 1943 then to 131 OTU 2 August 1944 Link below shows a 423 Sqn Mk III moored in the Buoy Trot at Castle Archdale 423 Sqn Sunderland I'm pretty sure I have this kit in my stash, and looking at the box art and photo in link reasonably similar I think Dark Slate Grey, Humbrol did one Hu 224 (discontinued?) as did Model Master and Colourcoats. Hope the above is of help? Regards Alan Edited January 9 by LDSModeller 1 2
Graham Boak Posted January 9 Posted January 9 Colourcoats are not currently available (will be again fairly soon) but the required colours are available from Hannants in the Xtracolour range. As new, of course. Humbrol 27 can be used instead of EDSG but needs a bit of blue adding. Xtracolour are gloss, Colourcoats satin, and Humbrol matt. I suspect that you can also get the colours from Phoenix Precision paints, in matt enamel.
LDSModeller Posted January 9 Posted January 9 (edited) 1 hour ago, ed-209 said: I would be interested in any information on this aircraft thanks and thanks for looking Part two When it comes to Sunderland's, I admit openly I'm a nut for them (blame it on my late Dad and my up bringing With research, it can be a bit like following one's nose to find some info (how ever big or small) I found a photo of your particular aircraft - Note the Ocean Sentinel is incorrect in stating 3-G as the code, clearly Airfix did better research as it is indeed 2-G from the photo see link below, form the IWM site Short Sunderland DD867 Just a note of caution with the paint instructions, Airfix would have you paint the planing hull light grey. I think Airfix maybe (possibly...) trying to replicate (in a fashion) the grey lanolin waterproofing. However looking at the photo of DD867 she has no grey waterproofing, more the clear version Hope that's of help Regards Alan Edited January 9 by LDSModeller 2 2
RJP Posted January 10 Posted January 10 The scheme is perhaps not immediately obvious until one realises that Mother Nature got there first. A lovely summer day, watching the gulls flying about below me as I peered over the edge of the Niagara Gorge below the Falls. I was about 10 and had recently completed my first Airfix Sunderland. Lo and behold, the Sunderland scheme, single shades of grey upper surfaces, white below. Even white leading edges. 1 1
Mike Starmer Posted January 10 Posted January 10 Using The RAF Aviation colours book I found H125 as slightly faded Extra Dark Sea Grey and H224 as Dark Slate Grey. This may also mixed with 5 x H102 + 1 x 33 or 5 x H86 + 1 x H92. Either of these will provide a close representation of the colour. Keep in mind that on operation aircraft in the oversea environment that these paints faded and deteriorated 2
ed-209 Posted January 11 Author Posted January 11 Thank you all for looking and responding humbrol is my brand of choice a life long habit that's hard to break like bronze colector rings and yellow bombs I'm planning the box sceem for this one so I have an exuce to build a mk5 in tow tone some point in the future In the 2012 instructions have gloss white playniing surfaces iv always wondered if flying boats were antifouled in some way but no There is an other photo in the IWM colection but it doesn't open which is a shame Description says taken at lough Eme Just one more question if I may What colour was the beeching gear? Thank you all again edd
LDSModeller Posted January 11 Posted January 11 2 hours ago, ed-209 said: In the 2012 instructions have gloss white playniing surfaces iv always wondered if flying boats were antifouled in some way but no There is an other photo in the IWM colection but it doesn't open which is a shame Description says taken at lough Eme Just one more question if I may What colour was the beeching gear? Hi Edd Yes, no anit-fouling, barnacles were always a problem, having to be physically removed by scrapping off when the aircraft was beached for servicing as illustrated in the photo below. Of note the Japanese POW's are also reapplying the clear lanolin waterproofing (Sunderland is a Mk V, which still had the upper turret installed) (Photo used for illustration purposes only) There were two types of lanolin water proofing colours being either grey or clear. Though the water proofing didn't stop water from gaining entry. Standard practice before take of for the crew, was to remove the flooring over the bilges and check for water. There was an acceptable amount allowed which could be then removed by bilge pump (either hand or powered). Too much water, and the aircraft would be slated for beaching and a manual check. As far as beaching gear goes, for WWII, grey primer would be a good choice as in the photo of a 490(NZ) Squadron Sunderland at Jui, West Africa. (RNZAF Official - Air Force Museum of New Zealand - Used with Permissions) Note also the 'Push out push in" mooring cleat (left of front entry hatch), as opposed to the indented type. Off course Beaching gear could be different colours too (USN had red/Green for port/starboard) Note this Sunderland Mk III being hauled up on the hard, grey main gear, and red rear beaching frame with grey cork floats (Photo used for illustration purposes only) This photo taken (post war circa 1960) at RNZAF Station Lauthala Bay, Fiji, by my late Dad gives a good illustration of different colours. Hope the above is of help? Kind regards Alan 2 2
ed-209 Posted January 12 Author Posted January 12 Thanks very much will be getting the paints out to night for the sub assemblys Unfortunately work on the Hull is at a stop because if a nasty nik I gave my self in the kitchen to ever one Thanks for all the help and photos edd
Paul Lucas Posted January 13 Posted January 13 DD867 was the last of a batch of 40 Sunderland Mk. IIIs delivered between December 1942 and June 1943. The white scheme was introduced for Sunderlands with effect from June 1942. A MAP Loose Minute dated 19 June 1942 stated that the upper surfaces were to remain in the Temperate Sea Scheme as at present before going on to state that "(ii) The undersurfaces are to be coloured with white lanoline (Stores Ref: 33B/463) to No.2 Pattern. (iii) The undersurfaces of the wings and tail unit are to be glossy. This gloss is obtainable by the application of three coats of White lanoline." Code letters were to be Light Slate Grey. From early 1943, the two colour Temperate Sea Scheme was dispensed with on the upper surfaces and replaced by a monotone Extra Dark Sea Grey finish. This was specified in DTD Technical Circular No.360 that was issued in February 1943. Thus, in theory, by the time that DD867 was delivered in June 1943, it should have been finished with only Extra Dark Sea Grey on the upper surfaces. It is possible however that the Temperate Sea Scheme continued to be applied by Blackburn throughout the entire production run. With regard to the White finish, DTD TC No.360 Appendix 5 Paragraph (ix) 'Definition of Glossy White' Sub-paragraph (c) stated "For Flying Boats, the under-water surfaces of the hull and wing tip floats are to be given a coat of White, anti-fouling, to Specification DTD 420B (Stores Ref: 33B/367) followed by a coat of White to Specification DTD.420B (Stores Ref: 33B/463). The linked photo however appears to show a darker colour than White on the planeing surfaces. On the one hand, this could be a shadow, or it could be the 'light grey' finish called for by the kit instructions. The float in particular looks too dark for it to be entirely shadow? In 1942, the anti-fouling finish available as 33B/367 was Aluminium in colour, and this might therefore have been mistaken for a 'light grey' finish, and may be the darker tone visible on the planeing surfaces in the linked IWM photo. 33B/463 was the White finish used in the national markings that was supposed to have a smooth Matt finish, so exactly how glossy this might have been is open to question. I don't have a 33B Reference for a clear glossy lanoline finish for this period. There isn't one listed in DTD TC No.360. Serial numbers and code letters were supposed to be Light Slate Grey. So DD867 is either Temperate Sea Scheme or Extra Dark Sea Grey on the upper surfaces with smooth Matt White side and under surfaces possibly with Aluminium planeing surfaces. Codes and serial numbers are supposed to be Light Slate Grey. 3 1
LDSModeller Posted January 14 Posted January 14 18 hours ago, Paul Lucas said: he linked photo however appears to show a darker colour than White on the planeing surfaces. On the one hand, this could be a shadow, or it could be the 'light grey' finish called for by the kit instructions. The float in particular looks too dark for it to be entirely shadow? In 1942, the anti-fouling finish available as 33B/367 was Aluminium in colour, and this might therefore have been mistaken for a 'light grey' finish, and may be the darker tone visible on the planeing surfaces in the linked IWM photo Hi Paul, I think DD867 is simply showing shadowed areas on the lower float and main planing hull. If you look at the photo of Short Sunderland Mk II W3986 on the hard wearing a very similar scheme to DD867, you can see the lower planing hull is white as are the floats (W3986 Short Bros. Built at Rochester) Sunderland Mk II W3986 As far as the aluminum on the lower planing hull/floats I think this photo (per link) of Sunderland Mk I L2163 DA-G would fit that TSS/Aluminium scheme Sunderland Mk I L2163 This photo link is of Short Bros, built boat (Rochester) Sunderland Mk III DV963 B, wearing the Grey colour lanolin on lower fuselage (about the water line) Sunderland Mk III DV963 Regards Alan 1 1
Paul Lucas Posted January 14 Posted January 14 (edited) @LDSModeller,I agree that DD867 was most likely White, but I thought it necessary to raise the possibility of the Aluminium finish given that Airfix got the idea of a grey finish from somewhere, and this photo might well have been one of their references. I also agree that W3986 is White. I would expect that L2163 would have been Sky, not Aluminium. The link for DV963 doesn't work for me, I get a 404 error message, so I can't comment. Given that it was delivered circa July 1943, it should have conformed with the provisions of DTD TC 360, but perhaps Shorts had their own way of doing things that was different from how Blackburn did things. I don't have a 33B Reference for a grey Lanoline finish other than Medium Sea Grey and Light Slate Grey as used for markings. Is the grey finish that you are referring to a proprietary finish? What is your source? Edited January 14 by Paul Lucas
ed-209 Posted January 14 Author Posted January 14 Britmodlers prove to be a fascinating mine of useful information again thank all will make the final camouflage disision when I can't put it off any longer mite even get another kit so I can do both Thanks all edd
tempestfan Posted January 14 Posted January 14 3 hours ago, LDSModeller said: I think DD867 is simply showing shadowed areas on the lower float and main planing hull. Quite possibly, but - the sun is behind the a/c from which the pic was taken. The float may have a "flatter" bottom than the hull, resulting in a starker shadow, but I don't think so flat as to cause such a dark shadow. The nose of the float rakes upward, so probably should appear somewhat lighter. And the main part of the float is in the shadow of the wing, which also should result in less starkness than at the rearmost section which is lit from above. Still the float bottom looks pretty uniform along its length. 1
LDSModeller Posted January 16 Posted January 16 On 1/14/2025 at 9:52 PM, Paul Lucas said: I would expect that L2163 would have been Sky, not Aluminium. I have this document with I have taken screen shot, and note date Further down it notes the following for Flying Boats under surfaces If L2163 was photographed around that date or even after the December 1940 AMO change to Sky, it would be silver until a change to sky could be made On 1/14/2025 at 9:52 PM, Paul Lucas said: The link for DV963 doesn't work for me, I get a 404 error message, so I can't comment. Given that it was delivered circa July 1943, it should have conformed with the provisions of DTD TC 360, but perhaps Shorts had their own way of doing things that was different from how Blackburn did things. Photo (of a photo) of DV963 (Photo use for Illustration Purpose only) Another Sunderland (Mk V) for Loch Ryan Video (Photo Use fore Illustration Purpose Only) Some additional photos of Sunderland's with Grey Waterproofing Sunderland Mk V with grey waterproofing Post WWII but still grey - This is NZ4108 (Previous ML814) landing at Rose Bay NSW for Sandringham conversion - Kermit Weeks now owns this NZ4108 Rose Bay On 1/14/2025 at 9:52 PM, Paul Lucas said: I don't have a 33B Reference for a grey Lanoline finish other than Medium Sea Grey and Light Slate Grey as used for markings. I have yet to find reference also for the use of grey Lanolin - It was used, per photos above I had a discussion with Allan King some time ago who I consider a foremost Authority on the Short Sunderland (Author of Wings On Windermere etc.) about the use of Clear and Grey lanolin, and he agreed grey lanolin was used ( I have the above book) Regards Alan 1
Paul Lucas Posted January 17 Posted January 17 @LDSModeller, you are quite right, L2163 'DA-G' would have had Aluminium under surfaces. I am afraid that I didn't take the time and trouble to look at the photo properly, read the expanded caption that gave the exact date of the photo as 31 July 1940 or, to really show the level of my incompetence in this instance, look in my own book where this Sunderland is illustrated and captioned as having Aluminium under surfaces. The photos of the Sunderlands with the 'grey' finish on the bottom of the hull are interesting, thank you for pointing them out. I don't remember 'seeing' this before, I wonder exactly what it was? If it was described as being a 'red' colour, then it might have been the result of the continued use of the early anti-fouling finish that was in use by 1920 and seems to have still been in use on Flying Boats in the Mediterranean as late as 1940, but now it seems we have another little mystery to try and solve. 1
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now