11bravo Posted December 22, 2024 Posted December 22, 2024 Seen multiple instances of red-doped fabric used to cover bullet holes on RAF aircraft but haven't seen any detail shots of the patches. My question - would they have glued the fabric patch over the damage and then painted on red dope to reinforce the patch? If so, would the red dope have been applied outside of the border of the fabric or just on the replacement fabric itself? Want to add a couple of patches to the Spitfire XIV. I assume that the these patches would only be used on fabric surfaces such as elevators and rudders? They weren't used to cover holes in the sheet metal surfaces, correct? I guess whilst on the subject, anyone have some good (ideally color) shots of the red doped covers applied to the wing MG ports after every mission?
Troy Smith Posted December 22, 2024 Posted December 22, 2024 2 hours ago, 11bravo said: My question - would they have glued the fabric patch over the damage and then painted on red dope to reinforce the patch? If so, would the red dope have been applied outside of the border of the fabric or just on the replacement fabric itself? Want to add a couple of patches to the Spitfire XIV. I assume that the these patches would only be used on fabric surfaces such as elevators and rudders? Unlikely, simply as control surfaces were carefully balanced. They would be replaced, and the damage repaired and the unit would be rebalanced. The RAF were very particular about not applying paint in a non controlled manner to control surfaces. By the stage of the MkXIV there was a long and well stocked supply chain so you would just replace a damaged rudder. @Paul Lucas may have some more specific info. 2 hours ago, 11bravo said: I guess whilst on the subject, anyone have some good (ideally color) shots of the red doped covers applied to the wing MG ports after every mission? These were only doped on fabric before they issued specific self adhesive gun port covers. see They were only replaced if the guns had been fired, and are only applicable if you are building a C winged XIV. An E wing did not have the outer 0.303 guns, so the outer holes would be plated over, or have patches painted to match. cannon barrels had roll on rubber covers, i presume something similar was used for the inboard 0.5 cal gun, which was in a cannon stub. HTH 1
11bravo Posted December 22, 2024 Author Posted December 22, 2024 (edited) 42 minutes ago, Troy Smith said: Unlikely, simply as control surfaces were carefully balanced. They would be replaced, and the damage repaired and the unit would be rebalanced. The RAF were very particular about not applying paint in a non controlled manner to control surfaces. By the stage of the MkXIV there was a long and well stocked supply chain so you would just replace a damaged rudder. @Paul Lucas may have some more specific info. Good info Troy but take a look at the pic below. The rudder on this bird has some pretty prominent patches on it, including one that appears to be red-doped. Regarding the covers on the blast tubes, my subject is a highback FR.XIV. According to the Aviaology decal instructions (and these guys seem pretty well respected for the research they put into their subjects), these aircraft had 20mm & .50 cal MG's, the .303 MG's were removed but the blast tubes were left in place and covered with doped patches. Edited December 22, 2024 by 11bravo 2
Troy Smith Posted December 22, 2024 Posted December 22, 2024 2 minutes ago, 11bravo said: red-doped. Just to clarify, the red dope is a used to seal and tighten the fabric, which will then have a finish coat applied. I have no idea if the 'red doped' is an unpainted patch, or just mud? Well spotted, note the patches are very carefully done, the issue on control surface finish came from a crash of a 43 Sq Fury in the mid 30's, where the continual retouching of checked marking on the elevators led to imbalance and flutter, hence regulations on painting of control surfaces and care needed. Other may know more, and you do occasionally see exception to this, EG SEAC stripes, but it is very rare. 3 hours ago, 11bravo said: shots of the red doped covers applied to the wing MG ports after every mission? Spitfire XIVE by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr E winged Spitfire XIV, note cannon and 0.5 gun ports, and no outer wing ports. Also, the chipped back to brass sheath on leading edges of the compressed wood blades HTH 1
11bravo Posted December 22, 2024 Author Posted December 22, 2024 4 minutes ago, Troy Smith said: Just to clarify, the red dope is a used to seal and tighten the fabric, which will then have a finish coat applied. I have no idea if the 'red doped' is an unpainted patch, or just mud? Well spotted, note the patches are very carefully done, the issue on control surface finish came from a crash of a 43 Sq Fury in the mid 30's, where the continual retouching of checked marking on the elevators led to imbalance and flutter, hence regulations on painting of control surfaces and care needed. Other may know more, and you do occasionally see exception to this, EG SEAC stripes, but it is very rare. Spitfire XIVE by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr E winged Spitfire XIV, note cannon and 0.5 gun ports, and no outer wing ports. Also, the chipped back to brass sheath on leading edges of the compressed wood blades HTH A fascinating (at least to me) subject. I can't provide much more info. Aviaeology's decal instructions state: "For FR converted Mk. XIVE's of 430 Squadron, Early type E-wing, including .303 machine gun blast tubes (but without the guns themselves). Usually covered with red-doped fabric". With regard to prohibitions on painting control surfaces, that makes a great deal of sense since balance is critical. However, I then think of those Mk V's sent to Malta that were repainted once and sometimes twice in the field (or on the USS Wasp) including control surfaces with no worries about throwing the controls off-balance. Regards, John
Graham Boak Posted December 22, 2024 Posted December 22, 2024 What the guy on the spot doesn't know he doesn't care about. Whether a single thin coat would unbalance a Spitfire control surface is not, AFAIK, stated anywhere. The destructive effects of flutter when you get it wrong are. However, you are only imagining no one was concerned, or that it took place on Malta without rebalancing taking place. 2
Paul Lucas Posted December 22, 2024 Posted December 22, 2024 The following text relating to the repair of fabric surfaces is taken from Air Diagram 2390 'Aircraft Dopes and Finishes Instructions for Use' September 1942. I have reversed the order of these two paragraphs so that the instructions can be read in the order that the work was to be carried out. "2. FABRIC , REPAIR WORK. Thinners, Dope, Ordinary. When repairing damaged fabric use Thinners, Dope, Ordinary (33B/477,478,479) to remove the old dope and finish. Apply it sparingly with a soft brush and keep the surface wet by further applications for about a minute. Then cover it with paper to slow down evaporation and let it soak in. The film will soften with this treatment and can then be rubbed off with a rag. With thick films it may be necessary to repeat these operations once or twice. Edges of patches should be frayed on all sides for 1/4 inch, stuck down with Red Dope and finished as for NEW WORK 1. (see above). 1. FABRIC, NEW WORK. Application of Red Dope to Specn. D.T.D. 83A. Brush first coat of dope; red (33B/124, 125, 126, 416). Brush or spray second and third coats. Allow 30 minutes between coats. A fourth coat must be applied only if tautness is insufficient. Application of Camouflage Colours to Specn. D.T.D. 83A. Six hours after application of the last coat of Red Dope or when thoroughly taut spray or brush (preferably spray) one coat the required colour (one coat of the dark colours will be sufficient but Yellow, White and other light colours require at least two coats. Application of Identification Colours to Specn. D.T.D. 83A. Those may be applied by brush or spray to the Red Dope or over the camouflage colours after six hours or when thoroughly taut. (One coat of Red and Blue will be sufficient but 2 coats of Yellow and 3 coats of White will be required)." 4 3
Kari Lumppio Posted December 22, 2024 Posted December 22, 2024 Hi! A question triggered by this thread: Did Spitfire have SRM, Structural Repair Manual? Such document would have the definitive answer(s). Cheers, Kari 1
gingerbob Posted December 22, 2024 Posted December 22, 2024 7 hours ago, Troy Smith said: ...and no outer wing ports. 7 hours ago, 11bravo said: Aviaeology's decal instructions state: "For FR converted Mk. XIVE's of 430 Squadron, Early type E-wing, including .303 machine gun blast tubes (but without the guns themselves). Usually covered with red-doped fabric". Oh, the ports are there, but they aren't open holes. I can see them, unless I just believe I can see them. I'm not convinced by their "usually..." statement, at least as it applies to the now dormant .303 ports. I admit, however, that I have not had a careful look for photographic evidence of the specific "interim FR.XIV" aircraft in question. 2 1
Mike Starmer Posted December 22, 2024 Posted December 22, 2024 Gun ports were usually covered by red adhesive patches peeled from a backing sheet manufactured for the purpose. You will see doped patches in red and Azure Blue too in M.E. The covers for cannon barrel were essentially condoms, again made for the purpose. 2
11bravo Posted December 22, 2024 Author Posted December 22, 2024 1 minute ago, Mike Starmer said: Gun ports were usually covered by red adhesive patches peeled from a backing sheet manufactured for the purpose. You will see doped patches in red and Azure Blue too in M.E. The covers for cannon barrel were essentially condoms, again made for the purpose. Wondering if anyone has a color picture or two they can share that would help match the correct color for those adhesive patches and Red Dope?
Paul Lucas Posted December 22, 2024 Posted December 22, 2024 The Red Dope was the same colour as the 'dull' Red used in the national markings. The self adhesive patches were a similar colour. 1 1
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