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Posted

I was just talking to @Skodadriver in PMs, and started typing the above, instead of the usual Merry Christmas & Happy New Year, as I usually do.  It got me thinking "why does it sound the wrong way round?", so I thought I'd ask you lot.  You occasionally seem to know things, and it's a festive themed question :D

 

Does the "merry" part imply we're all supposed to be drunk?

 

I supposed I'd better wish you all a Mary Christmas and a Harpy Nude Year* while I'm at it :santa:

 

 

* Sounds similar to Nudey Tuesday from The League of Gentlemen.  Now that was a funny/weird/brilliant comedy show.  Re-watching it now, introducing our son to the vagaries of our shared sense of humour. :wicked:

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Posted

The word "merry" in the context of Christmas refers to the joy that Christians feel at the birth of Christ.  Nothing to do with over-imbibage :)   Hence the carol "God rest ye merry, Gentlemen".  Note the position of the comma. It's an exhortation to accept the joy of the season before the day is out.   It's not "God rest ye, merry gentlemen", implying that the gentlemen are merry.

 

The new year is a simple calender event with none of the joy of Christmas day, so it's just "happy".   

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Posted

Because we've always said it that way it has become familiar to us. T'other way round sounds wrong just because we rarely say it that way

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Posted
2 minutes ago, Enzo the Magnificent said:

The new year is a simple calender event with none of the joy of Christmas day, so it's just "happy".   

So I can't have a Merry Christmas AND a Merry New Year?  Not that I drink any more... I've got a couple of bottles of 5 year bourbon that are now probably 10 year aged, although I doubt glass bottles add much to the flavour :shrug:

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Posted
2 minutes ago, Mike said:

So I can't have a Merry Christmas AND a Merry New Year?  

 

Not from an ecclesiastical point of view.  :) 

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Posted

Agreed that Merry New Year sounds wrong. But on its own, my family and many friends use Happy Christmas and it doesn't seem weird

 

As to the combination, I would guess its down to the song "we wish you a merry Christmas, we wish you a merry Christmas, we wish you a merry Christmas and a Happy new year"

 

We're all so used to is that saying Happy Christmas and a Merry New Year is getting the lyrics wrong!

 

Cheers

 

Colin

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Posted

The New Year is a distinctly pagan event.  As are/were a good few others in the year: including some now embedded as Christian.  Halloween seems to have made something of a comeback, or is that yet another example of creeping Americanisms?  Oops, wrong thread.   Not quite sure how Guy Fawkes Night creeps in, but it seems rather more pagan than christian - despite burning people at stakes being a strong Christian tradition.  Yes, that's a very careful use of low and upper case!

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Posted

Hang on, I thought "Happy Christmas" was the more typical British or English expression? Specifically in contrast with "Merry Christmas".

 

s/

Confused in La La Land

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Posted
28 minutes ago, ckw said:

But on its own, my family and many friends use Happy Christmas and it doesn't seem weird

 

From a totally secular point of view it's perfectly fine. 

Posted
25 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

The New Year is a distinctly pagan event.  As are/were a good few others in the year: including some now embedded as Christian. 

Not quite sure how Guy Fawkes Night creeps in, but it seems rather more pagan than christian - despite burning people at stakes being a strong Christian tradition.

 

To be honest, Christmas was also originally a pagan event as it was intended to celebrate the winter solstice.  The early Christians in Europe simply co-opted the date.  But then again, most religions have an element of syncretism.

 

Guy Fawkes Night is more of a political thing but it still involves religion to an extent.  The Gunpowder Plot was a culmination of decades of low-level conflict in England between protestant and catholic factions.    It is now a target for the woke as it celebrates the persecution of a religious minority.  After 400 years, I don't think either of those factions actually care any more. They just like the fireworks. :)   

 

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Posted
12 minutes ago, Enzo the Magnificent said:

 

To be honest, Christmas was also originally a pagan event as it was intended to celebrate the winter solstice.  The early Christians in Europe simply co-opted the date.  But then again, most religions have an element of syncretism.

 

Guy Fawkes Night is more of a political thing but it still involves religion to an extent.  The Gunpowder Plot was a culmination of decades of low-level conflict in England between protestant and catholic factions.    It is now a target for the woke as it celebrates the persecution of a religious minority.  After 400 years, I don't think either of those factions actually care any more. They just like the fireworks. :)   

 

And an excuse to go running around looking like Hugo Weaving.

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Posted
1 hour ago, Mike said:

I was just talking to @Skodadriver in PMs, and started typing the above, instead of the usual Merry Christmas & Happy New Year, as I usually do.  It got me thinking "why does it sound the wrong way round?", so I thought I'd ask you lot.  You occasionally seem to know things, and it's a festive themed question :D

 

 

 

Well Mike, It's kinda like 

You can say "Have a nice day" and no problem.

 

But you can't say "Enjoy the next 24 hours" and not sound vaguely threatening.
One is ok, the other.... not so much., but still correct.

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Posted
16 minutes ago, LorenSharp said:

But you can't say "Enjoy the next 24 hours" and not sound vaguely threatening.

Vaguely?  I'm terrified already! :frantic:

 

45 minutes ago, bentwaters81tfw said:

Both ways sound wrong, it should be 'Bah Humbug' :humbug:

You're a miserable git Frank :rolleyes:

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Posted
1 hour ago, bentwaters81tfw said:

Both ways sound wrong, it should be 'Bah Humbug' :humbug:

 

39 minutes ago, Mike said:

 

You're a miserable git Frank :rolleyes:

 

But Frank (and Scrooge) are correct.  The modern secular Christmas is a humbug!

 

Christmas as a Christian festival is fine.  I'm not a Christian myself but I think that people of faith getting together in their community to celebrate the birth of their saviour is a wonderful thing.  It's not for me but I wouldn't want to criticise it.

 

The secular "christmas" on the other hand is a festival of greed.  It's all about buying the most expensive presents and over-indulging over a few days.  You have to compete with everyone around in putting up the most garish (not to mention expensive) decorations outside your house. You have to take part in that stupid Secret Santa ritual and wear an ugly Christmas Sweater to work. I find the whole thing disturbingy performative.  :fraidnot:  As I've mentioned before the simple statement "I don't celebrate Christmas" can even give great offence to people. 

 

I think my attitude is best summed up in the words of my favourite xmas song.  I won't post a direct link to it as I got myself into a lot of trouble doing that about ten years ago as the song has a lot of offensive language. 

 

Every year the malls are just a mad house,

Filled with empty pockets, thoughts and smiles.

Just the smell of egg nog makes me vomit,

And those coloured lights are *cough* infantile.

 

I think we, collectively as a people,

Should rise against this corporate jolly noise,

And tell the world "Let's buy some peace and quiet for a change",

Before we spend it all on *cough* toys.

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Posted
1 hour ago, Enzo the Magnificent said:

 

To be honest, Christmas was also originally a pagan event as it was intended to celebrate the winter solstice.  The early Christians in Europe simply co-opted the date.  But then again, most religions have an element of syncretism.

 

Guy Fawkes Night is more of a political thing but it still involves religion to an extent.  The Gunpowder Plot was a culmination of decades of low-level conflict in England between protestant and catholic factions.    It is now a target for the woke as it celebrates the persecution of a religious minority.  After 400 years, I don't think either of those factions actually care any more. They just like the fireworks. :)   

 

There are no contemporary written records, or minutes of Church synods as to why our present day Christmas is on the 25th December, thus supporting the pagan theories. There is no mention of the date, or celebrations in the Bible, indeed the nativity story as commonly portrayed is built up by combining the stories in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke. There is no other mention.

 

Away from the pagan link there is another which is attested in early writings. That is that critical events in the life of Christ are associated with the Jewish passover, which is why East falls in the spring. Spoiler alert , it's nothing to do with rabbits or eggs. Therefore in the appearance of the angel to Mary announcing the birth was at passover, then the birth is likely to fall in December after nine months.

 

End of theological lesson for today. Another linked question is why the western new year falls on the solar day it does. Obviously the calendar date is now 1st January but this does not explain the solar date.

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Posted
1 minute ago, Paul821 said:

There are no contemporary written records, or minutes of Church synods as to why our present day Christmas is on the 25th December, thus supporting the pagan theories. There is no mention of the date, or celebrations in the Bible, indeed the nativity story as commonly portrayed is built up by combining the stories in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke. There is no other mention.

 

But there are

Posted

Sounds a lot better than the term “Happy Holidays”, which is starting to creep into modern PC lexicon because it doesn’t relate to all religions and there’s a risk you might offend someone! 
 

Cheers and Merry Christmas.. Dave

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Posted
22 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

But there are

I have to ask - but where?

Posted

Crikey  - have a good read at this thread chaps.  Erudite, informed, intelligent,  theological and philosophical musings and discussions on early Christian history and its currency with a side bar discussion on modern commercialism versus spiritualism.

 

If you want to see how much the early Christians nicked from the pagans have a visit to Roslyn Chapel when next near to Edinburgh - well worth a visit.  Lots of "Green Man" carvings.  Its an old time honoured pratice  - the Romans took a lot of their religion from the Greeks and so on back through the ages.

 

Just goes to prove what a depth of knowledge BM'ers have

 

PS My contribution - Christmas is on 25 December as we all read the The Shepherd on the 24th

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Posted

In ye olde worlde medieval days, the Church calendar began on Advent Sunday, with Advent lasting until the afternoon of Christmas Eve, which was a vigil and fasting day.

As per Jewish understanding, the church day began  the evening before (in our eyes) rather than at midnight or dawn.

Christmas Day was a feast day, followed by three days of major festivals - St Stephen, St John the Evangelist, and the Holy Innocents. Then came the Circumcision of Christ (1st January), and Epiphany (6th January).

Whilst it was regarded that the natural year began on 1st January, the calendar-year date change was then on 25th March, (the Annunciation of the Virgin).

In wealthy households, the whole period Christmas Day to Epiphany could constitute a holiday. Gift giving would occur on New Year's Day rather than Christmas Day. So our much bemoaned secular extension of the holidays is nothing new.

 

As an additional comment, Xmas is actually  legitimate church abbreviation, with X as shorthand for St. Cross (Christ).

 

It is surprising how recently the period has again become a holiday in the work sense, and it was not until 1974 that New Year was designated a public holiday.

 

Whatever you do or do not believe, have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

 

 

Matt

 

 

 

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Posted

Happy something-or-other, and may Dog bless all who sail in you. :cheers:

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