bootneck Posted December 16, 2024 Posted December 16, 2024 I've seen a couple of images of RAF vehicles that puzzle me about their markings. One has a yellow outer ring around the normal red, white and blue roundel which I am advised is for the North Africa region. Can anyone please provide any further detail, such as why and when etc? My other query is about the markings on this vehicle below. I would like to know what the meaning is of the plate with PASS on it; also, how is it attached to the vehicle? There is also a series of letters and numbers, above the roundel on the offside, is this a unit marking and; if so, which unit would it belong to? I would be grateful for any assistance with identifying these elements. cheers, Mike
Heather Kay Posted December 16, 2024 Posted December 16, 2024 The markings on the bonnet are most likely gas warning patches. They were a sort of dull yellow in colour, and changed colour if a mustard or chlorine gas was detected. The application was mandated to be visible to the operator of the vehicle. 1 1
bootneck Posted December 16, 2024 Author Posted December 16, 2024 Thanks again Heather, that's another query answered. cheers, Mike 1
ted angus Posted December 16, 2024 Posted December 16, 2024 The Oxa has a mish mash of markings, the serial number is army and the y is possibly a home guard mark but the y thought is that it is just a guess .The roundel with the yellow outer was used in N Africa as an air recognition marking so as i say a miss. Mash. turning to the Bedford Armadillo they were a really odd batch, built to defend airfields and aircraft factories at the direction of the air ministry. As Heather says gas detector paint patches on the bonnet. They carried odd WD prefix reg numbers ? I can tell you that the picture was taken at RAF. Mildenhall at the time a bomber command station, above the roundel is ML 22 , my guess is that it is the M.T. Fleet number. I can tell you several of these OXAs after service with the army were transferred to the RAF. Hope this helps Ted 1
bootneck Posted December 16, 2024 Author Posted December 16, 2024 Thanks Ted, Any idea how I would find out when they transferred to the RAF? I'm trying to ascertain when these were in RAF service; also, what the PASS plate means and how it is affixed to the vehicle. I am assuming that the wording is white on a green plate. cheers, Mike
ted angus Posted December 16, 2024 Posted December 16, 2024 They had certainly been transferred by mid 1942 have a look at IWM Photo A10035 taken at RAF Jurby. There are 3 or 4 shots in this series 2 of which show RAF Regiment motor cycles. The pass sign should not be displayed. The w ord should only be visible if the vehicle has broken down and should be passed, i would have thought having it on the back would have been more practical. Note in the Jurby photo the oxa retains its army reg number. I wonder why the salty old seadog is visiting the RAF, No doubt cadging a lift having missed his ship lol. Regards Ted
bootneck Posted December 16, 2024 Author Posted December 16, 2024 He's probably thinking "where am I, this isn't the wardroom". Thanks again Ted, your comment about the PASS sign is completely logical. cheers, Mike
Hardcastle Posted December 16, 2024 Posted December 16, 2024 The PASS was the unit insignia holder and had "pass" behind it - if there was a breakdown they took the plate off and "Pass" was visible so the rest of a convoy could continued and PASS. Colour is white on black. See this thread: Hope that helps. Tim 1 1 1
John Tapsell Posted December 16, 2024 Posted December 16, 2024 (edited) The 'Pass' plate is literally that - it was displayed (at least in theory) to denote that the vehicle should be passed (rather than queueing up behind it and therefore causing a traffic jam). It reality, it appears to have dropped out of use fairly quickly because separate signs were replaced with signs painted directly onto the vehicle. The 'Pass' was painted on a square plate - on the other side was typically a unit marking that would normally be on show. The idea being that if you stopped the vehicle, you got out and turned the plates round to display the 'pass' sign. Some older references suggest quite the opposite - that the 'pass' sign denoted a vehicle that had priority and should thererefore be waved ('passed') through. More recent research seems to have debunked that description In terms of your yellow ring on the roundel. I wouldn't rely on a model as a good reference source. The roundel was used in North Africa and Italy, but aircraft recognition markings were not really used much in the UK until the adoption of the US star in 1943/44. These expedient 'armoured' (I use the word optimistically) trucks were rarely if ever be seen outside the UK and would not have been priorities for repaint by 43/44 - if indeed they were still in use. The camo on the model is dodgy anyway - the brown isn't appropriate for SCC2 Brown and the green is too bright. RAF vehicles were painted to Army standards and if the trucks were ex-army or Home Guard, they would have remained in their army colours. I suspect most would have remained Green G3 with a darker Green G4 disruptor applied, given the period they were built and used. If you can't find a good photographic reference of the yellow-edged roundel on these trucks, don't use one Edited December 16, 2024 by John Tapsell 1 1
ted angus Posted December 16, 2024 Posted December 16, 2024 MIKE its got to be a brown job idea, if it was to give the vehicle priority then it should have been on the uk offside, if to say i am broken down it should be on the back. Clearly had it been an RAF idea it would have been on the back, where the salty seadogs would have displayed it is open to debate !??. Inter service jests aside. May I wish you All a merry christmas and a peaceful new year Best wishes Ted 2
John Tapsell Posted December 16, 2024 Posted December 16, 2024 1 hour ago, ted angus said: MIKE its got to be a brown job idea, if it was to give the vehicle priority then it should have been on the uk offside, if to say i am broken down it should be on the back. Clearly had it been an RAF idea it would have been on the back, where the salty seadogs would have displayed it is open to debate !??. 'Pass' plates were displayed both front and rear
Paul Lucas Posted December 16, 2024 Posted December 16, 2024 The RAF had two different Gas Detector Paints. Gas Detector Paint No.1, Vocabulary of Stores Section 33A/246, was the sickly yellow-green colour used on aircraft. Gas Detector Paint No.2, Vocabulary of Stores Section 33A/530, was intended for use on vehicles and was described as being 'Khaki' in colour. I've never seen a sample of Gas Detector Paint No.2 so I can't give a better description of what it actually looked like, but a colour photo of a still workable can suggests that it might have been something like Humbrol No.94 Brown Yellow. 1
ted angus Posted December 16, 2024 Posted December 16, 2024 44 minutes ago, John Tapsell said: 'Pass' plates were displayed both front and rear Just my attempt at inter service humour
ted angus Posted December 16, 2024 Posted December 16, 2024 1 hour ago, Paul Lucas said: The RAF had two different Gas Detector Paints. Gas Detector Paint No.1, Vocabulary of Stores Section 33A/246, was the sickly yellow-green colour used on aircraft. Gas Detector Paint No.2, Vocabulary of Stores Section 33A/530, was intended for use on vehicles and was described as being 'Khaki' in colour. I've never seen a sample of Gas Detector Paint No.2 so I can't give a better description of what it actually looked like, but a colour photo of a still workable can suggests that it might have been something like Humbrol No.94 Brown Yellow. Paul, i have found a ww2 motorcycle forum that has genuine examples of both number 1 & 2. I am currently on my tablet which is useless at posting links. Sometime tomorrow i will get on my pc and post a link, i am sure you will be interested. Ted. 1
mdesaxe Posted December 17, 2024 Posted December 17, 2024 I have several photographs taken by my father-in-law of his ambulances while he was serving with the American Field Service, a Quaker all-volunteer ambulance service that was formed originally during World War I and re-activated for World War II. His company was attached to the British army from 1942 onwards, serving in Egypt, Syria, the Western Desert, Tunisia, and finally in Italy. While in Egypt and Syria in 1942, the ambulances had RAF-style A-type roundels painted on the bonnets - no yellow surround. When they returned to the Western Desert in late 1942, no such markings were carried. He was a pacifist and conscientious objector, and his experiences as an ambulance driver led him to switch from a career as a journalist to becoming a doctor. He applied to and was accepted into medical school but did not realise this until he was evacuated wounded during the Third Battle of Monte Casino, during which his company was supporting the 4th Indian Division and the Gurkhas in particular, because he had stuffed the acceptance telegram into his battledress and did not stop to open it until he was on the troop transport going home. It was very hazardous driving an ambulance - he was one of about a dozen members of his company to survive the entire period from 1942 to 1945. He was most irate when he later received an Honorable Discharge and several medals from the US Army in 1994 because he had never served in the US Army, nor would he have done so if given the opportunity. Maurice 2
dcrfan Posted December 17, 2024 Posted December 17, 2024 See this thread on RAF vehicles including colour photo of armoured Bedford http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/showthread.php?t=4991&page=10
ted angus Posted December 17, 2024 Posted December 17, 2024 https://pub37.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=3155626639&frmid=16&msgid=1397203&cmd=show Paul et al, interesting article on subject paint and its worth reading to the end note mention that the Khaki fades quickly TED. 1
Kingsman Posted December 17, 2024 Posted December 17, 2024 (edited) This image comes up a lot. A line-up of 4 "Mk 1" Armadillos, with wooden pebble-filled rear bodies at RAF Wyton. The 1st and 3rd in line are Bedfords, a WHG or WLG and an OL or WL, while the 2nd and 4th are Fords. At least 2 are impressed civilian vehicles, and I suspect that all 4 are. I have had a hankering to do the 2nd in line Ford 917 or 018 using the ICM kit in 1/35, but they badly goofed the bonnet and grille shape and size and there are no replacements. No visible markings at all. Painting here is almost certainly Green G4 over Khaki Green 3. The RAF had far more Armadillos and Bisons - the concrete-bodied version - than OXAs which, as as has been pointed out, only went to the RAF and Home Guard after the regular Army had finished with them. At individual stations I can't see the need for any particular markings other than a local MT number. This picture came up on Facebook a couple of days ago. New to me. 2 RAF Regt OXAs at RAF Jurby Head on the Isle of Man. 11 July 1942. The rear one has a VGO MG on some kind of rail mount around the roof hatch. Army serials, bridge class plate and gas paint patch visible. More interestingly, these men are armed with US BAR and P17 rifles in 0.30-06. Weapons most normally found with the Home Guard, 0.303" being reserved for regular forces. I think these are 2 different colours. the rear one being G4/KG3 and the front one Dark Tarmac over KG3. OXAs were all built before the KG3-SCC2 changeover. RAF Regt personnel being inspected at RAF Ronaldsway IoM on the same day. All have 0.30" P17 rifles again. I have made the MMK OXA in 1/35, not an experience I ever wish to repeat. Yes, I took the yellow-rimmed roundel on trust and I now know that it is wrong. Colours here are intended to be G4/KG3. The AA Lewis gun seemed logical but I have no evidence. MLU has an 11-page thread on RAF vehicles. Might be something of interest there. http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/showthread.php?s=9e18cffdda58b425ab791abf8bcc9605&t=4991 Edited December 28, 2024 by Kingsman Some pictures had disappeared 1 1
bootneck Posted December 17, 2024 Author Posted December 17, 2024 8 minutes ago, Kingsman said: I have had a hankering to do the 2nd in line Ford 917 or 018 using the ICM kit in 1/35, but they badly goofed the bonnet and grille shape and size and there are no replacements. Thanks Kingsman. What ICM kits are those, do they do kits of the 2nd and 4th Ford vehicles? I'm not bothered about the armoured parts but it would be good if I can get kits of the cabs and chassis' of those two Fords. cheers, Mike
Kingsman Posted December 17, 2024 Posted December 17, 2024 This is the ICM kit of the Ford 917, Which is, apart from some small details, exactly the same as a Ford GB 917 of 1939 and will pass as a 1938 model 817 or a 1940 018 ( the 1" extra 1940 wheelbase can't be seen in 1/35). The first digit is the last digit of the model year - e.g. 9 for 1939 - the middle digit is for 3 different engines, 1 being the 3.6L V8 - and the final digit is the last digit of the wheelbase in inches - 7 for 157". The box art is accurate, However, the kit is less so. The bonnet protrudes too far forward of the wheel arches and the grille is therefore too narrow and not oval enough. Shorten the bonnet and the grille won't fit. There is no replacement available so the only option is scratchbuilding. Someone does a resin replacement with winter cover, but it is still sized for this kit. The only Fordson 7V in 1/35 - the 4th in line - is this resin artic tractor from Wespe. €39 + shipping, which is reasonable for a resin kit.
Mike Starmer Posted December 21, 2024 Posted December 21, 2024 A lot of these OXA type vehicles were not painted with colours specified by the War Office. The companies building them used 'camouflage' colours selected from paint ranges produced by companies in hope of obtaining government contracts. I have a picture of these being built at Wolverhampton in what is whole range of shades and pattern styles. 1
bootneck Posted December 21, 2024 Author Posted December 21, 2024 On 17/12/2024 at 16:54, Kingsman said: The only Fordson 7V in 1/35 - the 4th in line - is this resin artic tractor from Wespe. €39 + shipping, which is reasonable for a resin kit. Hi Kingsman, I would like to get one of those Fordson 7Vs but couldn't find one, do you have a link to it please? I'll try to get swmbo to get it as an anniversary present for me. cheers, Mike
Kingsman Posted December 21, 2024 Posted December 21, 2024 (edited) Here is the Wespe Models website: https://www.wespemodels.com/ They have a huge range in multiple scales. You might spend more than you expect! Here's a direct link to the 7V. As luck would have it, Wespe have a sale on so this kit is now only €39!! https://www.wespemodels.com/military_models/military_models_scale_1_35/scale_1_35_ford/fordson_thames_7v_tractor_wes_35036 If you want to pose it with an aircraft, they do the 7V in 1/48 too. Edited December 21, 2024 by Kingsman forgot the link...... 1
Kingsman Posted December 28, 2024 Posted December 28, 2024 ICM are releasing another version of the 917 with a 2cm FlaK in the back. I would like to think they might attend to the nose job, but the history of ICM says they don't put things right even when pointed-out by multitudes. So I'm not hopeful. No obvious sign of anyone doing a correction kit/set for it.
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