WWII Aircraft Colours, Post 1941, Further East than the Middle East.

[Gondor44]

I am hoping this is the correct place to ask a question.

 

I want to find out what were the colours used on RAF machines in the Far East during World War II when used for anti-submarine or anti-shipping roles.

 

I am imagining that it would be similar to Coastal Command, but for the Far East, No idea where to look, the internet may have lots of information on it, but it's having the ability to drag it out of there to look at that's not always easy.

 

It would be very helpful if someone could either post the required information or point me to a relevant book or website.

 

Gondor

[bootneck]

Hi Gondor,

 

what area of the Far East, and timescale?  Do you mean between September 1939 and December 1941?  Most of the Far East became dominated by the Japanese after then.

 

cheers,
Mike

[Gondor44]

2 minutes ago, bootneck said:

Hi Gondor,

 

what area of the Far East, and timescale?  Do you mean between September 1939 and December 1941?  Most of the Far East became dominated by the Japanese after then.

 

cheers,
Mike

 

Hi Mike,

 

Post 41 would be what I am looking at. I know I am being rather vague, but not knowing what was used where in the general area is no help in allowing me to be more definitive in my request for information.

 

Gondor

[bootneck]

Hi Gondor,

the wording RAF machines.. used for anti-submarine and anti-shipping roles, assumes from air bases but most, if not all had been captured during the Japanese offensive.  British and other allied forces had to retreat all the way west to India, or south to Australia.   It is this that makes your query somewhat vague.  Can anyone else help?  Perhaps some odd bases did hang on but I don't know of any.

 

cheers,
Mike

[Graham Boak]

Exactly the same as the UK.  Other than in the first months of the conflict when aircraft such as Wapitis and Atlantas were pressed into service.  The best single book is probably Geoff Thomas's The Eyes of the Phoenix, primarily about PR but it covers most of what was happening at the time.

[bootneck]

Where would they have flown from Graham, after the capture of most of the Far East?

 

cheers,
Mike

[Gondor44]

1 minute ago, bootneck said:

Hi Gondor,

the wording RAF machines.. used for anti-submarine and anti-shipping roles, assumes from air bases but most, if not all had been captured during the Japanese offensive.  British and other allied forces had to retreat all the way west to India, or down to Australia.   It is this that makes your query somewhat vague.  Can anyone else help?  Perhaps some odd bases did hang on but I don't know of any.

 

cheers,
Mike

 

I am thinking more along the lines of when the RAF would have been rebuilding its forces, so India and Australian bases would be appropriate.

 

3 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

Exactly the same as the UK.  Other than in the first months of the conflict when aircraft such as Wapitis and Atlantas were pressed into service.  The best single book is probably Geoff Thomas's The Eyes of the Phoenix, primarily about PR but it covers most of what was happening at the time.

 

I suppose that aircraft could be diverted from the Middle East as well?

 

Gondor

[bootneck]

Just now, Gondor44 said:

 

I am thinking more along the lines of when the RAF would have been rebuilding its forces, so India and Australian bases would be appropriate.

 

 

I suppose that aircraft could be diverted from the Middle East as well?

 

Gondor

Neither India or Australia could be classed as the Far East, hence my queries.

 

cheers,
Mike

[Gondor44]

10 minutes ago, bootneck said:

Neither India or Australia could be classed as the Far East, hence my queries.

 

cheers,
Mike

 

Managed to change the topic title, hope that covers it

 

Gondor

[bootneck]

Hi Gondor,

 

yes, I understand your query now.  You would like to know what RAF anti-submarine and anti-shipping aircraft, and their markings, were used against the Japanese in WW2.   That is an interesting topic as much of the RAF's equipment and many of their aircraft were lost.

 

cheers,
Mike

[Graham Boak]

Yes, aircraft were diverted from the Middle East, but Coastal and anti-shipping aircraft in the Middle East used the same colours as the UK with some possible, if controversial, exceptions.  Plus of course the use of normally land-centred units for specific operations.   Fighter (and presumably bomber) aircraft supplied in the Desert Scheme were repainted on arrival in India, generally at Karachi, but these are outside your query.  The RAF did not use Australia as a base for rebuilding forces for use in South East Asia.  The FAA did later for operations in the Pacific.  

 

There is the somewhat controversial suggestion that the Vildebeest in Singapore were painted in a proposed Tropical Sea Scheme, but it seems that this was restricted to a prewar trial on a very limited number of aircraft and it does seem that they were otherwise painted in the (then) standard Temperate Land Scheme.  Whether they were ever repainted into the Temperate Sea Scheme is unknown.

[EwenS]

1 hour ago, bootneck said:

Where would they have flown from Graham, after the capture of most of the Far East?

 

cheers,
Mike

Mike

There were flying boat bases throughout the IO area. Starting at Koggala Lake at the South end of Ceylon, down through Addu Atoll, Diego Garcia, Seychelles, Mauritius, Madagascar (Diego Saurez from May 1942 & other places from later in the year), Durban and various other S.A. locations, Mombasa / Kilindini in Kenya come to mind. Also multiple airfields in Ceylon, and some of the aformentioned flying boat locations plus Masirah Island of Oman, Khormaksar at Aden, various places on both Indian coasts.

 

One of the last bases built was Brown Field on the Cocos Islands which opened in April 1945 and was used by maritime recce Liberator detachments from 203 and 321 Dutch squadron as well as 136 Spitfire squadron for air defence and 99 & 356 Liberator bomber squadrons.

 

Often it would just be detached flights operating away from main base temporarily.

 

In terms of aircraft on maritime patrol, Catalina, Sunderland V in 1945, Hudson in 1942/43, Beaufort (22 & 217 in Ceylon from late 1942), Beaufighters as replacements for the Beauforts in 1944, Liberators (160 from early 1943 plus 354 rrom later that year and 200 from early 1944).

 

This is a good title on the subject

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wings-Dawning-Battle-Indian-1939-45/dp/1897817703/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?crid=22RUGHY1I6KQ7&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.sqpP2BJEpEMD2USYYTphm92MzmfXtV6ABMvCaZW_UZEgkJp8b6pqKGir1NxmQRpDRnUFW-L9xpFpUh3GmdeCqcAoXT9EFnleLJGgijSAErHiaUBoC8SSstNYf9RedxSlVj1LAaUfQw5eAgMTcNHbkUp24wD8w_ITPuLlvgHukzZcgul2dmcUMJ11dXunPBSnWm01DCXTnW71Wqodg_bACw.Isz_0D4F1BvXWs5nbyH3ttPuYBs-Dz3FIMtDJxC5k1g&dib_tag=se&keywords=wings+of+the+dawning&nsdOptOutParam=true&qid=1732395991&sprefix=wings+of+the+dawning%2Caps%2C161&sr=8-1

 

More generally on the war around the IO

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Islands-Ports-Sea-Lanes-1757-1947-ebook/dp/B07RRC8T8S/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?crid=1FIC14C9N70FI&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.R9dDcBRlTCsoXvqhw048j9FTo80yWSILwk9B7woQJNA0ORAhQ98TBv828G7tKFyg3zmPaDOqCwyr0BTdCcHm0AFKbgDPaFEFN3pdWUEfgfBP46lrAguumNxc_mpk8We5KPMliL951Jt-8X0OnPlqh7yU0m4xz4U10C-EI63vETAVD_ltHdmYsX408vlGFxXm0Tfd4zftRbVFcK3lzxHlwA.hNOqlovgC7dn17GFfARCK6c4wNPFQI3NguRT6xduO8A&dib_tag=se&keywords=of+islands+ports&nsdOptOutParam=true&qid=1732396135&sprefix=of+islands+ports+%2Caps%2C260&sr=8-1

 

The focus of the war in the Far East is usually on tge war in Burma. But after April 1942 and Operation  C etc quite a lot went on but as it resulted in little action is little known. U-boat and I-boat sub operations, KM and IJN raiders, lot of convoy defence work. Things only began to pick up from early 1944 as the Eastern Fleet was reinforced.

Ewen

Edited November 23, 2024 by EwenS

[Gondor44]

So basically Temperate Sea scheme is what I am after.

 

Thanks very much for all the info guys

 

Gondor

[LDSModeller]

1 hour ago, Gondor44 said:

I want to find out what were the colours used on RAF machines in the Far East during World War II when used for anti-submarine or anti-shipping roles.

 

 

In his Book "A Long the Way"  New Zealander Donald Baird, who had served in the RAF (early to mid 1930's)

on a Short Service Commission becoming a pilot, on Flying Boats describes how in 1941 the CAS and staff of

the Far East RAF saw the writing on the wall, that war with Japan was very much on the cards.

 

Their main concerns were that the likes of Fiji (British Colony) would have no maritime aircraft to help protect the vital

seaways. The newly formed RNZAF was far down the list for receipt of the newer US Catalina's, so gifted  five Short Singapore's

with 205 Squadron based at Singapore, for use in this role (Wikipedia RNZAF 5 Squadron and some Canadian website would

have you believe "they found their way to Fiji.......)

Late In 1941 Donald (AOC) and other RNZAF staff were sent to Singapore to collect said aircraft. Out of the 5 Singapore's, only 4 were really fit to use

and the RNZAF detachment had to use the 5th Singapore to cannalbalise for parts to get the remaining 4 air worthy and usable (which would

be some what prophetic, in that 488(NZ) Squadron would have to do the same with their Brewster Buffaloes a short time later).

In early December 1941 two of the Singapore's left for Fiji on an eventful flight (see link from RNZAF Museum (my friend at the museum sent me)

 

RNZAF Short Singapore's

 

The final two left after the Battle for Singapore started, Donald writes that the last two Singapore's were used for maritime reconnaissance, search and rescue

especially when both HMS's Repulse and Prince of Wales were sunk. Eventually the last two Singapore's had to leave -such was the gravity that the Cheif

of Air Staff, Air Marshal Sir Robert Brooke Popham came personally to see them off at the jetty, reinforcing the fact about protecting the sea lanes, and that

at some point the RNZAF would be reequipped with the Catalinas's

Finally the last two Singapore's arrived in Fiji, the 4 having been reduced to 3 as one of the first two struck a hidden reef

 

Did the Singapore's carry out Maritime duties- absolutely. After the US had entered the war, they began to look at forward bases, Fiji becoming

one of them.

Did the Singapore's actually do anything worthwhile in such a far flung area of the SW Pacific, and where are you going with the Alan you might ask?

in 1942 one of the 5 Squadron Singapore's was tasked with escorting a US ship out form Suva Fiji. While some time out from Suva, the Singapore crew

sighted a Submarine and attacked, dropping bombs. The crew were dead certain they had sunk it, but further investigation post war doesn't show

any Japanese subs lost near Fiji at that time (NZ Author Bee Dawson in her book "Lauthala Bay" goes into some detail about this) so is "inconclusive"

 

Colourwise one would expect the Singapore's to be RAF colours of the period, being Temperate Sea Scheme

205/5 Squadron Short Singapore at Seletar prior to departure for Fiji

(RNZAF Official - Air Force Museum of New Zealand - Used with Permissions)

 

At Laucala (pronounced Lauthala) Bay Fiji

(RNZAF Official - Air Force Museum of New Zealand - Used with Permissions)

 

Depending on how far period wise you want to go and how far area wise is far enough?

 

Hope the above is of help

 

 

Regards

 

Alan

[Ed Russell]

Maritime patrol along the Australian coast was primarily an RAAF task. This was mainly the responsibility of the Ansons of 66, 67, 71 and 72 Sqns and later the Kingfishers of 107 Sqn.

It's probably outside your area of interest but details of camouflage etc are readily available.

[EwenS]

14 squadron RAAF spent its entire existence between 1939 and 1945 in Western Australia, patrolling Indian Ocean waters, firstly with Ansons before moving on to Hudsons and then Beauforts.

 

13 squadron RAAF spent most of its war flying from bases in the Northern Territory and Northern Queensland on anti-shipping, escort and maritime recce duties with Ansons, Hudsons  and finally Venturas.

 

When 25 squadron RAAF converted to Liberators in Western Australia in early 1945 part of its role was to attack Japanese shipping up through the DEI.

 

There was a U-boat scare in Australian waters between Dec 1944 and Feb 1945 due to the presence of U-862 sinking a ship off Sydney and then another off Fremantle.

https://uboat.net/boats/u862.htm

 

In Feb / Mar 1944 there was a big scare in the IO area from Ceylon to Australia. This followed the relocation of the Japanese Fleet from Japanese Home Waters to the Singapore area, )battleships, carrirrs, the works) and thoughts of another 1942 style Operation C. It caused much movement of ships and aircraft just in case. In the end only 3 Japanese cruisers made a brief foray into the IO, sinking just 1 ship IIRC.

 

 

Edited November 24, 2024 by EwenS

[Paul Lucas]

Dealing with the easy one first, according to Ian Huntley in Scale Aircraft Modelling Volume 4 No.10 July 1982, 5 RNZAF Sqn's Singapores were finished in Extra Dark Sea Grey and Dark Slate Grey on the upper surfaces without any shadow shading. The under surfaces were Sky Blue.

 

Mr Huntley obtained his information from a Signal dated 22 November 1941 that included Vocabulary of Stores Section 33B reference numbers. I have checked the numbers given for the main camouflage colours against my sources, and have found them to be correct.

 

There is some question about the finish applied to the bottom of the hull and floats below the water line. This is just visible in the photo of DT-C.

 

I don't know what the finish below the waterline was, but it might have been something like the red iron oxide colour usually associated with the anti fouling finish applied to ships as I have a document that originated with Middle East Command that describes the bottom of the hull of flying boats as "reddish brown".

 

As for the photo of FV-L. . .

Yes, it might be expected to be finished in the Temperate Sea Scheme on the upper surfaces, but yet again we have a photograph of an aircraft operating in a maritime role in Singapore circa 1941 that looks as though it might be finished in an 'unusual' camouflage scheme on the upper surfaces. 

 

I'm trying to decide whether it's shadow shaded with a demarcation line running level with the bottom edge of the cockpit windows. There is what looks like it could be a demarcation line visible between the rear of the windows ant the tip of the float. As to what colours they might have been or what they actually were. . .

 

The under surfaces appear to be Night because the under wing roundel has a Yellow surround to it. 

[LDSModeller]

On 11/25/2024 at 12:04 AM, Paul Lucas said:

There is some question about the finish applied to the bottom of the hull and floats below the water line. This is just visible in the photo of DT-C.

Hi Paul,

 

Some additional photos which might (or not ) help

 

5 Sqn Singapore in main hangar at Lauthala Bay, note water line, though it appears the

the the lower covering may be being removed from below the water line (possibly the lanolin water proofing)

(RNZAF Official - Air Force Museum of New Zealand - Used with Permissions)

 

Another photo of Singapore going down the ramp at Lauthala Bay - note the water line similar to above

(RNZAF Official - Air Force Museum of New Zealand - Used with Permissions)

 

Though this photo shows a different lower waterline colour.......

(RNZAF Official - Air Force Museum of New Zealand - Used with Permissions)

 

Regards

 

Alan

[SafetyDad]

On 23/11/2024 at 19:24, Graham Boak said:

 The best single book is probably Geoff Thomas's The Eyes of the Phoenix, primarily about PR but it covers most of what was happening at the time.

 

As here, but please be aware that it's 'Eyes for the Phoenix'. In different circumstances that small detail wouldn't really matter, but you have made it clear in a previous thread that you're keen for this reference to be cited correctly. 

 

 

 

SD

[kitbasher2009]

1941/1942 - Tropical Sea Scheme maybe (e.g. Vildebeests).  Sunderlands, Catalinas definitely in the Temperate Sea Scheme (Extra Dark Sea Grey/Dark Slate Grey/Sky) - see this from Aviaeology:

 

Edited November 26, 2024 by kitbasher2009

[Ed Russell]

11 hours ago, kitbasher2009 said:

Tropical Sea Scheme maybe (e.g. Vildebeests)

Archaeological thread here

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/66426-tropical-sea-scheme-on-the-beest/

if you want to spend a long time digging.

If you dont - the consensus is Dark Earth, Dark Green, Sky (or similar colour or aluminium dope) for the Vildebeests.

[mhaselden]

On 11/26/2024 at 8:20 PM, Ed Russell said:

Archaeological thread here

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/66426-tropical-sea-scheme-on-the-beest/

if you want to spend a long time digging.

If you dont - the consensus is Dark Earth, Dark Green, Sky (or similar colour or aluminium dope) for the Vildebeests.

 

That was a rather long-running thread (mostly my fault!).  The Vildebeests appeared to wear 2 schemes: an earlier high-contrast scheme with black undersides and a later low-contrast (probably Dark Earth, Dark Green and, perhaps, pale blue).  

 

The image of the Singapore posted above by @LDSModeller (and repeated below) is interesting because it seems to show a similar high-contrast scheme to that worn by the Vildebeests:

 

 

The main difference is that images of Vildebeests in this scheme pre-date the addition of the yellow surround to the fuselage roundel or the application of fin flashes.  I also appreciate that it's hard to draw firm conclusions between images taken at different dates/times...but the similarities between the schemes are certainly intriguing.

[Graham Boak]

There were a series of pre-WW2 experiments with new camouflage schemes, which included the Tropical Sea Scheme, but these were never provided with enough paint for more than a very small number of airframes..  Whatever conclusions were drawn, further experiments were planned but the outbreak of WW2 prevented any wide-scale adoption.  So it is possible that one or two Vildebeestes carried the TropSS into 1941 but there's no knowledge of which.

 

Photos of the Vildebeeste do show a similar high contrast of colours as this Singapore, but I suspect the first is due to the rapid fading of Dark Earth in Tropical climes and the Singapore is just another example of the great variability of the standard TSS in different lights and on different film stocks.  In particular, EDSG can appear dramatically light.

[mhaselden]

10 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Photos of the Vildebeeste do show a similar high contrast of colours as this Singapore, but I suspect the first is due to the rapid fading of Dark Earth in Tropical climes and the Singapore is just another example of the great variability of the standard TSS in different lights and on different film stocks.  In particular, EDSG can appear dramatically light.

I very much doubt the fading theory.  We don’t see similar “rapid fading” of Dark Earth on the Buffalos, Hurricanes, Hudsons, or Blenheims that were operating under the same conditions as these Vildebeests.  Not one of those aircraft types shows a similar scheme to the high-contrast shown on the Vildebeest and Singapore types.  The more logical explanation is that the Singapores and Vildebeests wore a short-lived high-contrast scheme that was subsequently replaced by more standard schemes (Temperate Sea Scheme and/or Temperate Land Scheme).

Edited November 29, 2024 by mhaselden

[Graham Boak]

Few of the types you mention served for anything like the time that the Vildebeestes did.  Clear signs of this fading can be seen elsewhere on other types such as Wellesleys and Hurricanes, including examples where Hurricanes can be seen partially repainted in a much darker brown, or where the standard desert scheme has faded to two light colours.  This high contrast is visible on every Far Eastern Vildebeeste photo (that I've seen), not just the rare example that can be expected from test examples, particularly those freshly painted in two dark colours.  Dark Earth is not a particularly dark colour anyway, and light examples can be seen even in UK photos.

 

The Singapore is perhaps another matter, but I still tend to TSS.