Fokker E.V/D.VIII***FINISHED***

[PeterB]

I don't remember when I first heard of this plane, but I always fancied building one. Of course, over the years I have discovered that it was far less important than I first believed, and as I will explain later it seems that very few actually entered service and that probably only one kill was claimed when flying it, but when Roden released a kit I bought it anyway.

 

 

 

It has the advantage of having only one wing and no rigging, but could prove tricky anyway as the struts look very fragile and I will need to use Roden lozenge decals on the fuselage which, given their track record, could be a real pain. Time will tell!

 

If anybody out there has built this kit themselves and knows of any problems with it I would be interested to hear from them. I seem to remember having seen comments about the lozenge decs being "a problem" but whether that meant they disintegrated, or maybe a criticism of the pattern/colour was unclear.

 

Pete

Edited November 2 by PeterB

[Milan Mynar]

It looks like nice kit.

[psdavidson]

Interesting

For some reason, I have one in the stash, so maybe this will give me some guidance if I ever get round to building it

Good luck with the decals

[Andwil]

7 hours ago, psdavidson said:

Interesting

For some reason, I have one in the stash, so maybe this will give me some guidance if I ever get round to building it

Good luck with the decals

Me too.  The thought of the Roden lozenge decals has put me off attempting mine for a long time!

 

AW

[PeterB]

On 11/2/2024 at 10:38 PM, Andwil said:

Me too.  The thought of the Roden lozenge decals has put me off attempting mine for a long time!

 

AW

Many years ago I decided to finish a few of my old Airfix/Revell WWI planes in lozenge camo so did a bit of research and it turned out to be rather complicated. Not only did the shape and colour of the lozenges vary, with for example both the German Naval Aviation arm and the Austrians having their own schemes, but the number of colours used also changed. The most common versions seemed to have used 5 colours initially, with a change to 4 colours later in the war, but an article I have by Ian Huntley mentions that there may have been versions with up to 7 or more colours.

 

It seems that in some cases the lozenges were hand painted, but mostly rolls of pre-printed fabric were employed and to complicate matters different aircraft manufacturers seem to have had their own ideas about the best way to apply the fabric which apparently came on rolls around 4 ft wide and was stronger across its width due to the weaving process. Some would apply the fabric lengthwise across the wings, others at a 45^o angle chordwise, but the "approved" method seems to have been to apply it chordwise along the line of flight starting at the centreline of the upper wing and the roots of the lower wing(s) and working outwards, the individual strips being joined by tapes which were sewn on. These tapes could be in one of a number of plain colours or actually printed in the camo pattern. I am not entirely certain but I believe there may also have been "rib tapes" holding the fabric down to the wing. The fuselage was covered in an envelope of fabric with a seam on the centreline normally. There were two different fabrics used, a darker one on top and the sides, and a lighter version of the same pattern on the undersides.

 

Back when I did my Fokker D.VII in lozenges Hannants had a wide range of AM decs available for 4 and 5 colour lozenges in a multitude of colours including Naval, Austro-Hungarian,  "weathered" and "heavily weathered" versions, and I still have in my decal stock some Almark 5 colour sheets and the remains of some Microscale 4 colour ones, but as a precaution I may buy some more 4 colour as a back-up for this kit and another I may build. The range available is now perhaps somewhat smaller with many being designed for specific aircraft, mainly the D.VII, but some suitable sheets can still be bought.

 

The main difficulty I anticipate with this build is deciding whether to put the lozenge dec on before or after gluing on the wing and undercarriage. The instructions  say after which could make positioning a bit more tricky, but although doing it before seems easier on paper, gluing the struts into their tiny locating "holes" through the decal without the glue "dissolving" the decal could be problematic. 

 

This is likely to be one of those "trial and error" builds but at least the lozenge is only on the fuselage unlike the other kit I may build!😄

 

 

Pete

Edited November 4 by PeterB

[Malc2]

You can get duvet covers (and other soft furnishings) in lozenge pattern - which amused me greatly, however my wife is not so keen for some reason........

https://www.spoonflower.com/en/home-decor/bedding/duvet-cover/8598729-sohm-lozenge-pattern-third-scale-dark-by-ricraynor

Malc.

[psdavidson]

19 minutes ago, Malc2 said:

You can get duvet covers (and other soft furnishings) in lozenge pattern

 

Wow, that's something I never thought I would see

Also available as wallpaper

[PeterB]

I have assembled the fuselage complete with the quite detailed interior.

 

 

According to the Windsock book the plane had the usual Fokker metal tube frame with canvas stretched over it, except around the engine where it was covered with metal panels, and the cockpit area was provided with varnished plywood floor and sides, with a canvas "rear bulkhead" behind the seat, but I have not bothered with the latter. In fact all I really needed to put in was the seat as that is about all that will really be visible. Apparently the bottom end of the control column actually stuck out of the underside of the fuselage with the control cables attached to it, but Roden do not show that and I won't bother as it will cause problems with the decals.

 

 

 

So a bit of background, though I should stress that due to the passage of over 100 years information is somewhat limited and sources do not usually always agree.

 

In 1918 the German authorities changed the way they ordered aircraft and in January (or perhaps February according to some sources) the first of a series of competitive trials took place at the Adlershof airfield at Johannisthal near Berlin. Around 27 aircraft were submitted for testing from 10 manufacturers, the Fokker V11 prototype was chosen and entered service as the D.VII ( though small orders were also placed for the Fokker D.VI). In May/June a second competition was held with perhaps 37 planes from 12 manufacturers, though I should perhaps point out that quite a few were either slightly modified existing types, or the same type with different engines. Of the 10 or so aircraft entered by Fokker, the parasol winged V.26 powered by a 110hp Oberursel engine was adjudged the winner due to a combination of speed, climb and handling, and orders were placed for 100 as the Fokker E.V, followed by a later order for a further 200. Orders were incidentally also placed for the Pfalz D.XII, perhaps as a back up.  Deliveries started in late July and Jasta 6 of the Richtofen Geschwader received their first planes by August 5th, but then on August 16th and 19th two of their planes crashed due to wing failure and production was halted pending investigation. Fokker claimed the problem lay with the official insistence on using a strengthened rear spar which was breaking rather than flexing under load, but the enquiry thought that, as with the earlier Dr.I it was actually down to a combination of shoddy manufacture and sub-standard components. Fokker was lucky not to end up in jail, but after agreeing to recall all the E.V and fit them with a redesigned wing he was allowed to start again on September 24th 1918, by which time it had been decided to use a "D" designation for all fighters so it became the D.VIII. It is unclear exactly how many D.VIII were produced, and indeed how many were actually E.V with the new wing. Sources vary and I have seen the figure of 381 quoted, but the Windsock book lists a total of 289 accepted by the air force. though post war pictures of the factory show lots of D.VIII lying around, and it is thought that maybe only between 60 and 80 actually reached front line squadrons.

 

After the war a few entered service with the Dutch and Polish air forces whilst others were flown by the US Army Air Corps and for civilian use in Italy. The kit comes with 4 options - one Dutch, one Polish and two German. The box art shows one flown by Lowenhardt supposedly of Jasta 11 but the markings are for Jasta 6 I believe. The other German one which has rather less complicated markings is one flown by Osterkamp of Marine Field Jasta II, who some sources claim made two kills whilst flying the type, contrary to what I stated earlier. Here is the decal sheet.

 

 

I have tested two Polish insignia, one straight off the sheet and one with a thin coat of varnish and both worked fine so maybe they will be OK, though I suspect bending them over the top of the fuselage and around the cowling may prove interesting. Time will tell! I will probably go for the Osterkamp one as it should be less problematic, but wonder if it should in fact have the naval style of lozenge which is not provided - perhaps that is what the complaint I mentioned earlier was about?

 

Pete

 

Edited November 8 by PeterB

[Aww94]

Very interesting background to this aircraft - thanks for sharing. 

[PeterB]

According to the Windsock book, the metal panels around the engine, the cowling, struts and both upper surfaces of the wing were painted in what they call "Fokker Dark Olive". The kit has both surfaces of the aerofoil like fairing on the wheel axle in lozenge but the Windsock book says that they were more often left in the green paint, and that the wheel covers could be either green or lozenge. Roden suggest using Hu 86 Light Olive but when I stocked up with White Ensign Colourcoats many years ago I bought both what they called "Fokker Olive" and "Fokker Green" - when Sovereign took over the paint range they called the former "Fokker Olive Brown". I have painted each of the 3 colours on my old Revell Ki-84 mule.

 

 

From left to right Fokker Green, Fokker Olive and Hu 86. The "Green" is a bit too "blue" I think and I will therefore use one of the "Olives". The Colourcoats one is perhaps a bit light  as the colour profiles I have suggest it should perhaps be a little darker but like their "RFC Green" aka P.C.10 it changes depending on the lighting - in fact the IPMS Stockholm "Urban's Colour Chart" suggests using the long defunct Humbrol 108 "WWI/RFC Green" but that is a lot darker if the ancient tin I have is anything to go by, as is my original HB15 RFC Green which is even older but still just about viable. The Polish insignia are the ones from the kit.

 

Pete

[PeterB]

Guns, engine and cowling on and everything painted green ready for decs.

 

 

Next I will clean out the various locating holes. The instructions show the undercarriage being added and then the wing, though I am tempted to do it the other way round. Roden imply that the whole thing should be assembled before adding the lozenge decs which will involve working them around several struts and probably entail some cutting to get them to fit. It would seem a lot easier to put the  lozenge on first but that too has problems. I would have to find and re-open the locating holes for the struts and then glue them in place, but unfortunately Revell Contacta attacks and dissolves decals even with a coat of acrylic varnish over them, whilst CA would not allow enough time to adjust the struts etc before it hardened. Digging around in my Railway paint storage boxes I have found some "old fashioned" Railmatch varnish which is pre-acrylic and that seems to be resistant to Contacta so I may be able to do a "hybrid" assembly with some of the more awkward struts left until after the decs are on.

 

This could prove "interesting".

 

Pete

[stevehnz]

Watching & taking notes Peter, I've also got one of these in stock. I suspect the Arma one was the better deal. 

Steve.

[PeterB]

25 minutes ago, stevehnz said:

Watching & taking notes Peter, I've also got one of these in stock. I suspect the Arma one was the better deal. 

Steve.

Hi Steve,

 

Never  built an Arma kit but I suspect you are right! Does it also have lozenge dec for the fuselage?

 

Pete

Edited November 15 by PeterB

[DaddyO]

FWIW i only build 72nd WW1 types and it's almost always easier to make up and complete (including decals) the main components before final assembly. 

 

Various suppliers make suitable decals if you struggle with the Roden ones (Type in 'Lozenge' on Hannants to see a range).

 

You've not mentioned PVA for attaching the struts which is an option since it won't affect the decals and dries clear and slowly enough to move pieces about. In all honesty I wouldn't dream of trying to assemble the wings/struts without some form of jig to hold the pieces in the correct position - you'll find it so much easier. It can be as simple as a bottles and blue tac affair or you can use lego bricks. Personally I make one up for each model using a few scraps of foam board with photo copies of plans on them cut to allow the wings to slot into position. Here's the one I used on the Sopwith Swallow which has a similar kind of layout and the more complex DeHavilland DH5. Using a jig means you'll be able to use superglue and if preferred 😉

 

Cheers

Paul

 

[PeterB]

15 minutes ago, DaddyO said:

FWIW i only build 72nd WW1 types and it's almost always easier to make up and complete (including decals) the main components before final assembly. 

 

Various suppliers make suitable decals if you struggle with the Roden ones (Type in 'Lozenge' on Hannants to see a range).

 

You've not mentioned PVA for attaching the struts which is an option since it won't affect the decals and dries clear and slowly enough to move pieces about. In all honesty I wouldn't dream of trying to assemble the wings/struts without some form of jig to hold the pieces in the correct position - you'll find it so much easier. It can be as simple as a bottles and blue tac affair or you can use lego bricks. Personally I make one up for each model using a few scraps of foam board with photo copies of plans on them cut to allow the wings to slot into position. Here's the one I used on the Sopwith Swallow which has a similar kind of layout and the more complex DeHavilland DH5. Using a jig means you'll be able to use superglue and if preferred 😉

 

Cheers

Paul

 

Hi Paul,

 

I will almost certainly be using PVA for some of the struts, but I prefer something with a faster "grab" for others. I normally use a jig for assembling biplanes, and have something in mind for this one, though as I said it would be easier if the wing went on first. However, putting the undercarriage on first does make some sense in terms of the longest wing support strut which will be sharing a locating hole with the undercarriage. Is that a "bought in" jig or one you made yourself - looks a bit better than my efforts with Meccano!

 

Pete

[DaddyO]

1 hour ago, PeterB said:

Hi Paul,

 

I will almost certainly be using PVA for some of the struts, but I prefer something with a faster "grab" for others. I normally use a jig for assembling biplanes, and have something in mind for this one, though as I said it would be easier if the wing went on first. However, putting the undercarriage on first does make some sense in terms of the longest wing support strut which will be sharing a locating hole with the undercarriage. Is that a "bought in" jig or one you made yourself - looks a bit better than my efforts with Meccano!

 

Pete

Hi Pete

That makes sense. 

Jigs are home brewed.😃

I just make one up to suit the model I'm currently working on. Couple of photocopies of plans and 5 mm thick foam board offcuts (I make individual boxes from the same material for transporting to shows so there's always a few bits laying around, but it's cheap enough to buy anyway) For aircraft like the Nieuport 17/23 or SPAD I've kept hold of it and used a few times for successive models, but for odder models (like the DH5) I ain't going to build another any time soon so I just chuck away after use to save on storage.

 

Must get around to the EV at some point, but trying to balance the sides by making a few more allied types at the moment 😉

 

Paul

[PeterB]

That was fun!

 

 

The undercarriage went on fine but the wing was a little tricky. In a number of cases the locating pins have to go into holes in the wing/fuselage at an angle, in some cases quite a shallow one - Airfix and the like would probably have moulded the pins at the appropriate angle but Roden have moulded them parallel with the strut centreline so they actually lie across the hole instead of in it which does not make for a very positive location. Fortunately CA does the trick to a point but the joints are maybe none too strong. I have deliberately left off the strut that runs from the top of the triangular cabane struts to a point midway up the fuselage just behind the cowling - you can see the locating hole in the above pic. Like the tail struts they will be attached after the lozenge dec is on, using PVA glue.

 

I have trimmed off the stray end of the rear strut where it hangs below the fuselage in the pic. I think I may try cutting the side decs vertically at the point where that strut meets the fuselage as it should make it easier to handle and the join shoud not be too obvious. - famous last words perhaps!

 

Pete

[PeterB]

So far so good.

 

 

 

In spite of having been given a thin coat of varnish the decs are still brittle and need a lot of careful handling. There were one or two small breaks but they could be repaired easily enough. Another coat of varnish may well have helped but I was concerned that would make them stiffer and prone to breaking when trying to bend them over the top of the fuselage. As you can see I also put the undersurface lozenge on the tailplane.

 

I have no idea whether the style, colour and orientation of the lozenges are correct - probably not! As I understand it, whereas the wing fabric was usually applied in short lengths chordwise, the fuselage covering was made by stitching long lengths of both upper and lower surface fabric together in a tube/envelope which was then slid over the fuselage frames. Roden have printed the decs so that there is a curious effect where the two side panels meet along the upper centreline a bit like the lower point of a "V" which may well be correct.

 

Today I will try and get the fuselage decs finished.

 

Later.

 

Just realised that the "light brown" element of the lozenge is not actually showing up - looks like it is not printed with enough density and the base olive paint is actually showing through so my 4 colour lozenge is more like 3 colour!!!!. I am not going to bother changing it now but to those with a similar kit I suggest using a much lighter base - perhaps grey or maybe even bleached linen.

 

Pete

Edited November 17 by PeterB

[PeterB]

Getting there slowly.

 

 

The strange effect on the horizontal tail/fuselage is reflection from the varnish! Getting the bits at the front on was a fiddle and was not helped by the fact that Roden printed the fuselage side dec too deep/wide. Also it seems that the Starboard side dec was a couple of mil short so I had to splice on a strip from the dec meant to go on top of the axle fairing so I will be leaving that green - the Windsock book says that was frequently the case.

 

As I mentioned earlier I had painted the fuselage in the Olive Green, probably thinking that would help to hide any cracks/breakages in the decs. In fact it worked pretty well with the underside decal and three of the four colours on the upper surface dec, but fourth colour, a light brown just did not have enough colour density and "vanished". This is what my aftermarket lozenge dec looks like.

 

 

The main sheets are some Tec Mod ones I bought recently  and the strips overlaid on them are what is left of some Microscale ones I bought around 40 years ago - I suspect the newer ones are meant to be a bit "weathered". 

 

So, it seems that with a lot of care and a fair bit of luck it is possible to get the kit decs on, and with a different choice of "undercoat" they may look quite good. There are perhaps certain advantages to using the kit decs in terms of alignment of the lozenge pattern, but I suspect AM decs may be a trifle easier, providing the are capable of being moved around without tearing - on past form some may be almost as bad as the Roden ones, Print Scale coming to mind as being prone to sticking and needing great care to then adjust the fit. Oh, what the heck - before starting the decs I not only made a scan of them but also a template for the fuselage ones so I had a go.

 

 That looks better. Because I have glued on the tailplane I will have to do a bit of patching before adding the ones on top, and as the elevators were a moving surface I suspect they were wrapped separately so the lozenge will not quite match up,  I may even do the axle fairing. The wheels could be fun as my compass cutter won't do that small a circle.

 

Once the horizontal tail is done the tail/rudder and wheels will be next. The new decs work a lot better and the trick of cutting the side dec at the point where the long rear strut is does make it easier..

 

Pete

Edited November 18 by PeterB

[PeterB]

I am not going to bother replacing to underside lozenge dec or doing the axle fairing so all that now remains is the wheels and the slivers of lozenge on the fixed part of the vertical tail.

 

 

I am currently waiting for the Railmatch non acrylic varnish to dry which takes a few hours, and then I will add the various struts I left off. Once they are sorted I will add the tail and can then make a start on the "normal" decals. For the wheel discs I am going to try an experiment and paint them white and then see what the Roden decs look like - I can always go back to the AM decs if I don't like the result.

 

Pete

[Andwil]

11 hours ago, PeterB said:

For the wheel discs I am going to try an experiment and paint them white and then see what the Roden decs look like

This may be the way to go.  The instructions for the Aviatik lozenge decal sheets say to paint a base of white, which I did for a DVII which worked well.

 

AW

[PeterB]

2 hours ago, Andwil said:

This may be the way to go.  The instructions for the Aviatik lozenge decal sheets say to paint a base of white, which I did for a DVII which worked well.

 

AW

Yes, it looks to have worked pretty well with the Roden wheel decs as they are once more 4 coloured and 3 of those virtually match the ones on the Tec Mod sheet, the other being a light blue whereas the AM one is a light green. The only problem is that the decs cracked a bit when trying to conform with the convex surface of the wheel and even after copious application of Micro Sol I could see the undercoat showing through in places, white being rather visible! Fortunately they were easy enough to touch up. I did notice several brands of AM lozenge said things like "transparent" and wondered just what that meant, though your post probably explains it. Just checked the Roden instructions and there is a section on applying details but no mention of the undercoat - perhaps they meant you to put them directly on the light grey plastic, perhaps having varnished it first?

 

Pete

Edited November 20 by PeterB

[JOCKNEY]

Great progress Pete

 

I've seen these lozenge decal for sale over the years but have never been brave enough to buy them let alone use them ! 

Delighted to see this one coming together 

 

Cheers Pat 

[PeterB]

In the end I managed to persuade the lozenge dec to go on the axle fairing and wheels, and I have added the 4 struts I had deliberately left off. I also rigged the front undercarriage legs which seems to have been the only rigging on the plane.

 

 

 

As you can see I also put on the "normal" decs.

 

 

The wing crosses are a bit strange - if the placement drawing is to be believed they should be further outboard but are too big. To complicate things Roden have printed them with one of the "arms" a little shorter than the other three, but neither mention or explain why. I suspect the short arm goes to the front but may be wrong.

 

Not much more to do.

 

Pete

[Milan Mynar]

In my opinion, great work with the decals.