The elusive 'Coronado Tan' (plus; was Khaki Green No.3 used on Grants?; Khaki Green and US OD compared,etc)

[Mike Starmer]

Khaki Green No.3 is darker than Olive Drab and more brown looking.  This is why old soldiers who were at Dunkirk or in the army during this early period told me that vehicles were brown and green or very dark green.  This was the 1960s and contradictory to me whilst trying to determine the real colours of British vehicles in the 1960s.  Then later others, including my father told me that vehicles were dark green whilst in Belgium and Germany.    Khaki Green No. will look different according to the daylight, film type, use of coloured filters and during the chemical processes used to develop and print images.  A lot of steel helmets at the time were 'battleship grey' too. according to Ron Huggins whilst with 10th Hussars, 1st Arm. Div. in BEF.  I am going to attempt a photograph of KG3 and Olive Drab together.  

[thebig-bear]

1 hour ago, Mike Starmer said:

 I am going to attempt a photograph of KG3 and Olive Drab together.  

Yes please! That would be brilliant!

 

However, if it's anything like my recent attempts to upload stuff, then good luck!

Edited November 10 by thebig-bear

[Kingsman]

A significant problem we face is period images being monochrome and under different lighting. In which I do not think we would recognise Khaki Green from US Olive Drab.  Even if we had a known comparison of a vehicle in each colour side by side that only works for that day in that light.

 

I posted some images a while back of paint chips on Sherman Michael which we took to be OD.  But could they be Khaki Green?  The first 28 Shermans from Lima were British contract and might have been following Grant colour instructions before that contract was subsumed into Lend-Lease.  The photos of Michael being unloaded from a Pickfords trailer on Horse Guards are well known.  But I defy anyone to be conclusive about the colour.  I would love to see some paint archaeology done on Michael and PSC Grant No1.

[thebig-bear]

1 hour ago, Kingsman said:

I posted some images a while back of paint chips on Sherman Michael which we took to be OD.  But could they be Khaki Green?  The first 28 Shermans from Lima were British contract and might have been following Grant colour instructions before that contract was subsumed into Lend-Lease. 

I agree - this is something I have been wondering about for a little while. Personally, I think those chips could very well be Khaki Green rather than OD, and in fact they match very well with other original examples of Khaki Green no 3. that I have seen online (allowing for all the usual caveats, of course), and arguably much better than with OD. Incidentally, it's also a much, much closer (dare I say near exact?) match with Mike's Vallejo version of the paint mix for Khaki Green that I have been using, than it is with his one for US OD.

 

1 hour ago, Kingsman said:

The photos of Michael being unloaded from a Pickfords trailer on Horse Guards are well known.  But I defy anyone to be conclusive about the colour.  I would love to see some paint archaeology done on Michael and PSC Grant No1.

All I would add is that I have seen a photo from that collection which clearly shows the apparent contrast in colour/hue between Michael and the M3 standing next to it. Whether Michael is OD and the M3 is Khaki Green (or has had a repaint), or Michael is Khaki Green and the M3 is OD, I wouldn't like to say. But a difference is there, and very clear, at least to me - they just are not the same. If I find it, I will include the link.

 

Edit: here it is. The second version of the photo shows it most clearly. Could it even be the difference in reflectance value of the paints involved that is what is making the contrast quite so visible?....

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205125668

 

As I am finding this topic just as interesting as the Coronado Tan question, I think I'm going to change the title of the thread to include it.

Edited November 11 by thebig-bear

[Kingsman]

I can answer that question immediately.  You can see that the Grant has additional rear stowage bins and bogie mud chutes.  So it isn't one direct from the US and it isn't the Bovington tank.  Those mods were prototyped at Chertsey for fleet-wide application in the UK, but not taken forward.  They are only seen on a handful of vehicles, Grants and M3s.

 

So that Grant has been repainted.  The timescale might suggest Khaki Green as it was before the general introduction of SCC2.  This picture cannot be earlier than 8 May '42.  I have seen models with those mods in brown.  It is not impossible that Chertsey, as the experimental establishment and at the forefront of development, were using SCC2 in May 1942.  Which, unfortunately, is not conclusive that Michael is OD because the colour of the Grant is uncertain.

[thebig-bear]

Thanks for that insight, @Kingsman. While it doesn't answer the Michael colour question, it is quite interesting in and of itself.

[JackG]

In the photo is the Grant parallel to Michael or a bit turned away and perhaps less in direct sunlight?  Took a triangular crop of the grey tone from Michael (location circled in red) and then pasted in various areas to compare tones.  Its a bit messy as the host site pixilated red into the grey areas but you can try the same study for clearer results.

 

 

 

 

 

[thebig-bear]

Here are some links to more photos from the series taken of Michael at Horse Guards.

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205492239

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205492243

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205492233

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205492236

 

These may or may not be of much use, but they are all the ones I could find that include both Michael and various other tanks within the same shot, and taken from differing angles, so I thought a comparison of some sort might be possible. Make of them what you will.

 

One thing that I did find interesting is that the turret on the Grant appears as if it may be a different shade from the rest of the hull - is this indicative of the body having received a repaint (due, presumably, to the fitting of the mods Kingsman mentioned earlier), but not the turret? Secondly, it is also clear from these pics that the vehicle parked next to Michael is in fact a Lee, and not a Grant. Does that affect our thoughts/judgement at all, when it comes to whether it might or might not have received a repaint, due to any mods?

 

Also, in answer to Kingsman's point above, the date given on the shots taken when Churchill came to inspect these vehicles was 12/5/42.

 

Edited November 12 by thebig-bear
Spelling

[thebig-bear]

2 hours ago, JackG said:

In the photo is the Grant parallel to Michael or a bit turned away and perhaps less in direct sunlight?  Took a triangular crop of the grey tone from Michael (location circled in red) and then pasted in various areas to compare tones.  Its a bit messy as the host site pixilated red into the grey areas but you can try the same study for clearer results.

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you, @JackG. It's good to see the comparison.

[JackG]

Thanks for those additional IWM links.  I think it is the slope of the Grant turret armour that is creating a lighter tone compared to vertical armour of the hull.

 

 

[Kingsman]

To my eye the Grant and the Lee are the same colour, but both are different to Michael: slightly darker.  That potentially fits with @Mike Starmer suggestion that OD can appear lighter than Khaki Green in monochrome.  There is no obvious reason for the Grant to have been repainted, and the inside of the open hull door is the same shade as the exterior.  Same on the Lee.  But it is not impossible that the door interior was repainted too, especially from Chertsey rather than a Unit.

 

So does that lead to a potential hypothesis that both Lee and Grant are Khaki Green while Michael is OD?  Which potentially means that if the Grant is the same colour as the Lee, which we know to have been repainted, then it may have been factory-finished in Khaki Green.  Unless of course it was repainted in-country too for some unclear reason.  Or are we just dealing with different reflectance from curved and flat surfaces?  Or are both the Lee and Grant actually SCC2?

[thebig-bear]

2 hours ago, JackG said:

Thanks for those additional IWM links.  I think it is the slope of the Grant turret armour that is creating a lighter tone compared to vertical armour of the hull.

 

 

You're welcome.

 

I agree that it is probably just as a result of the curved surface that is causing it. Having said that, the Lee's turret is arguably more curved than that on the Grant, yet is not affected in this way.

[Kingsman]

The Lee turret is more curved in the horizontal plane but the sides are almost vertical to the top.  Whereas the Grant turret sides are more steeply angled.  If you look at the vertically curved section of the Lee turret visible above the Grant gun barrel it is almost identical in tone to the Grant turret side and slightly paler than the section visible under the gun barrel.  So I would say this is reflectance difference between vertical, curved and angled surfaces.  But it does provide an interesting reference in that respect.

Edited November 19 by Kingsman
Bad spelling

[thebig-bear]

41 minutes ago, Kingsman said:

To my eye the Grant and the Lee are the same colour, but both are different to Michael: slightly darker.  That potentially fits with @Mike Starmer suggestion that OD can appear lighter than Khaki Green in monochrome.  There is no obvious reason for the Grant to have been repainted, and the inside of the open hull door is the same shade as the exterior.  Same on the Lee.  But it is not impossible that the door interior was repainted too, especially from Chertsey rather than a Unit.

 

So does that lead to a potential hypothesis that both Lee and Grant are Khaki Green while Michael is OD?  Which potentially means that if the Grant is the same colour as the Lee, which we know to have been repainted, then it may have been factory-finished in Khaki Green.  Unless of course it was repainted in-country too for some unclear reason.  Or are we just dealing with different reflectance from curved and flat surfaces?  Or are both the Lee and Grant actually SCC2?

Some great points.

 

I too think that the Grant and Lee probably look to be the same, and do seem a tad different from Michael.

 

10 minutes ago, Kingsman said:

The Lee turret is more curved in the horizontal plane but the sides are almost vertical to the top.  Whereas the Grant turret sides are more steeply angled.  If you look at the vertically curved section of the Lee turret visible above the Grant gun barrel it is almost identical in tone to the Grant turret side and slightly paler than the section visible under the gun barrel.  So I would say this is reflectance difference between vertical, curved amd angled surfaces.  But it does provide an interesting reference in that respect.

I've had another look, and I now see what you mean. Thanks for pointing it out.

 

[Kingsman]

OK. So there are 22 Dewar files at National Archives covering July 1940 to January 1942.  Roughly 1 a month.  Lots of reading.

 

But just as interesting in our context are 2 files on "Truck Mission to USA and Canada" and 2 more on "Purchase of 23,000 wheeled vehicles in North America".  Those sound like fertile ground for Coronado Tan.

 

Something has been troubling me about the name though.  When I was working in the MOD firearms team the Army was getting interested in weapons with plastic furniture in a different colour to green or black and potentially the entire weapon painted or Ceracoated in a colour other than black - which now stood out too much against the new lighter and browner MTP uniform compared to the old darker DPM.  The SA80A3 is now a tan colour.  But the colour everyone was obsessing over was Coyote Tan,  Everything must be Coyote Tan.  But no-one could identify it.  Turned out it was just a cool colour name from a manufactuer's catalogue of kit that SF liked and many soldiers purchased privately.  So we were trying to specify a colour that no other suppliers could actually match and which technically did not exist.  In the end a more general description was used.  But I can't help wondering if Dewar and others were perhaps caught in a similar feedback loop.

[thebig-bear]

I have been trying to upload some photos that @Mike Starmer very kindly sent to me, in order to share them with us, of a comparison he made showing his samples of Khaki Green No.3 next to US OD no.9. Finally, I think I might have been successful. Fingers crossed it has worked!

 

As to what Mike said in his emails regarding these swatches; "I got a chap to photograph the card comparisons yesterday.  The image shows slightly more brown in the KG3 sample and slightly less in the O/D.  The KG3 card is almost exact to a preserved motorcycle headlamp bowl.  That and my swatch were photospectrometer measured at the same time in bright cloudy daylight.  The difference was D200 1.5 between them.  Which in match terms is acceptable as a match.  The O/D swatch from US archives is an average of 3 1942 US official samples." 
"The actual KG3 swatch is semi-gloss.  I kept it thus to enable me to accurately remix my tin of colour.  I am thinking that it might be better to apply a coat of matt varnish over a half to provide the appearance as it would look on a model."

 

I believe the photos were taken in bright daylight.

 

 

EDIT: or, perhaps not..... They now don't appear to be working. 😞 Harumph.

 

Edited November 19 by thebig-bear

[thebig-bear]

Fingers crossed, but I think I might have finally done it! It will be a long time before I want to do that again!

 

Notes for the pics are as above, in previous post, but the simple description is; Khaki Green no.3 to the left, US OIive Drab no. 9 to the right.

 

Once again, thank you all for your patience.

 

 

Edited November 21 by thebig-bear

[JackG]

Those paint samples do look distinctly different in terms of hues.   Luminance does look close with the KG3 being a bit darker of the two.   Inputting the first swatch into the b/w film emulator gives these results . . .

 

 

 

 

 

 

[thebig-bear]

20 minutes ago, JackG said:

Those paint samples do look distinctly different in terms of hues.   Luminance does look close with the KG3 being a bit darker of the two.   Inputting the first swatch into the b/w film emulator gives these results . . .

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks, @JackG. Very interesting to note the subtle but distinct difference, visible in all instances it seems.

 

Allowing that these swatches are not the original paint in the original setting, but instead facsimiles, etc, etc, in my opinion the difference that is seen here tallies roughly with that seen in the photos of the M3s compared with Michael. Not definitive proof, I know, but pretty interesting, given what we have already discussed.

 

However, we must bear in mind that the Khaki Green sample is finished in semi-gloss, so a sample with a matt finish would likely be a little different. All being well, Mike is intending to apply matt varnish to part of the sample at a later date. (Having said that, in quite a few instances I've seen of vehicles depicted in colour wartime footage, UK-based vehicles painted in Khaki Green are not infrequently seen in a semi-gloss/polished/cleaned with an oily rag finish, so maybe it's not quite as much of an issue here as it at first appears!)

Edited November 21 by thebig-bear

[ColonelKrypton]

@Mike Starmer @JackG and @thebig-bear  - thank you for creating and posting these images.  These are quite helpful.

 

However, I must ask - what colour was the surface ( table top or ? ) on which these images were taken?  Grey? White? Light Blue? Somewhere in between?   

 

The background color/brightness various between the two images.  A brighter background would create an overall brighter scene which often results in a bit of underexposure as the camera's exposure meter tries to bring the image's overall brightness back towards middle grey whereas a darker background create an overall less bright scene resulting in a bit of overexposure. 

 

To be fair, modern digital cameras including those in mobile phones do a pretty good job of exposure and colour balance control. Something you may find useful when creating these sort of images is to include a grey scale card or colour correction/reference card.  Very good ones, especially Pto quality colour cards can be expensive but there are inexpensive ones found on Amazon, eBay, or your local camera store which are useful.

 

In case you are wondering, the middle grey to which I referred is also known as neutral grey or 18% grey and is the halfway point between black and white on a logarithmic scale.

 

More details for those who might be interested:  https://www.greatphotography.com/blog/2016/6/14/18-gray-the-middle-value  ( among many other online resources ).

 

cheers, Graham

 

 

 

 

 

[Kingsman]

That tells me that in a single period monochrome image none of us would be able to discriminate Khaki Green from OD.  Especially with the reflectance variation in different light and on flat, angled and curved surfaces.

 

To complete the picture we need SCC15 alongside too, which I suspect should be more different to OD than Khaki Green is.  And it would be interesting to have SCC2 there as well, both with the same mono emulations.

Edited November 21 by Kingsman
Bad spelling

[Kingsman]

OK.  Are you sitting comfortably?  Then buckle up.  Here we go.....................

 

Here are the colour comparisons from above, Khaki Green on the left and OD on the right.  In my simple mind I visualised these being the other way around.

 

  

 

Here are the previously-posted large chips to base colour on Sherman Michael, with the usual caveat that it's been under other paint for nearly 83 years.  Much browner than either of the above, but more like KG than OD.

  

 

Looking again at bits of the PSC No1 Grant that might have avoided repainting.  The layering is confusing.  Here on the edge of the side hatch opening we have "cream" over green but there does seem to be a layer of "cream" below that green and possibly immediately above the primer.  On the side of the tank there seems to be brown over green over "cream" over primer. 

 

Here we have a return roller section that has avoided later painting.  Same thing but photo without (left) and with flash.  The brighter more vibrant green is the lower colour.  The darker green, which I believe to be a later overpaint and before the current "light stone", is quite like the OD swatch.  But the more vibrant green is quite unlike either of the swatches.

 

 

Same here on this area of a roadwheel and the inside of an idler.

  

 

But guess what colour the inside of the topless taller stowage bin is............  All taken within seconds of each other but one looks a very different warmer colour.  I have no idea if this interior has been repainted or how long the lid has been missing.  But the colour is not unlike the "cream" layer seen earlier.  And despite any appearances to the contrary, it is NOT the same as the current exterior "light stone".  HOWEVER.....  As this is PSC No1 Grant it is many months before we see mention of Coronado Tan in the telegrams, this cannot be the original colour.  Which I stronly suspect to be the more vibrant of the greens.

 

Edited November 22 by Kingsman
Correction

[JackG]

I too thought KG3 would be the greenish of the two.   In Mikes pamphlet series on British vehicle camouflage none of the four publications includes a physical olive drab swatch.   The KG3 looks on par with posted comparison here but quite dark - so the top edge looks near what is in his pamphlets.

 

Another comparison ~

 

[Kingsman]

I have several times used that M4A1 as a comparator for OD - which it seems might have been incorrect.

 

The darker of the 2 greens on the Grant is not a bad match for the OD swatch.  But is definitely an overpaint.  Potentially - even probably- the first overpaint.  Which begs the question whether the brighter green was PSC's first attempt at a "khaki green" which was not accepted and was then overpainted with OD.  Of course that paint could have been applied (much?) later in the UK.  But in 1941 one might expect Khaki Green, not OD.

 

I'm finding that brighter green in other deep nooks and crannies such as in the recesses of the side door protectoscopes.  Which again makes me wonder if it might be original.  But the backs of the turret gunner's and driver's seats are much closer to the Khaki Green swatch.

[thebig-bear]

On 21/11/2024 at 19:09, Kingsman said:

To complete the picture we need SCC15 alongside too, which I suspect should be more different to OD than Khaki Green is.  And it would be interesting to have SCC2 there as well, both with the same mono emulations.

It would indeed - Seeing all four compared would be the ideal scenario.

Edited November 25 by thebig-bear