The elusive 'Coronado Tan' (plus; was Khaki Green No.3 used on Grants?; Khaki Green and US OD compared,etc)

[thebig-bear]

Hi all,

 

Firstly, I invite anyone much more clever than I to bring all of the various scattered bits of info about Coronado Tan to this thread, as I think it might be a good idea to have them all in one place, as they are currently quite disjointed.

 

Where to begin? For those not sure about exactly what we are talking about, 'Coronado Tan' is a 1930s/40s commercial paint colour, then used on civilian vehicles in North America, that is known to have been used to some degree on Canadian produced military vehicles for a period of time (during 1941 I believe? Please correct me if I am wrong), in particular those destined to see service in North Africa and the Middle East. The mystery is caused by what records there are being incomplete, and there seeming to be more than one colour called 'Coronado Tan', by different producers, and it not being clear as to which one was used.

 

The other day, I happened to stumble across another swatch from a 1930s car paint colour sheet (found on a duckduckgo online search), that featured 'Coronado Tan'. This is the 1st February 1933 list of colours for Chevrolet Motor Co.

 

There are some interesting things about this:

Point no.1- that this paint is a product of Dupont, as part of their 'Duco' range. When I shared this image with @Mike Starmer, he very kindly provided me with several other images of various swatches that he had collected. Two of these were also examples produced by 'Duco'. Three different companies using the same manufacturers paint might suggest this as the most widely used, and therefore the most likely. Also, Mike informs me that 'Duco' provided paints and dopes for US aircraft, as well as matches for MAP colours on direct purchase and lend-lease aircraft, so is possible on that score, too.

Point no. 2 - the hand written note next to the swatch, which reads, "CMP Y5333H", followed by what I believe say, "lighter". While I am not sure exactly what this means or refers to, to my mind it is very likely to be some sort of wartime addition, regarding military use. When I did some more digging, it is interesting that one or two other colours elsewhere have these CMP references, indicating the use of a few choice colours.

Point no. 3 - when compared to a photo from Mike of a rare surviving example of Coronado Tan (which has now sadly been destroyed), it matches extremely closely with it.

 

Further to discussing these and other points, Mike then very kindly sent me some photos of documents that refer to the use of Coronado Tan. These I presume to be the so called 'Dewar papers', as quoted by @Kingsman from a source by Pierre-Olivier (see the 'Mid-1942 7th Armoured Division M3 Grant - USA as Supplied Colour' thread for details). During the course of this back-and-forth correspondence between Micheal Dewar (head of Timkin, and acting in his capacity as head of the British Purchasing Commision in Washington) and various other officials, several things of interest are mentioned:

1: that (13th November 1941, from Dewar)"British M3 Mediums to be painted Coronado Tan(ou?) S Q M specification same color as Canadian Ford Vehicles that are to be shipped to the M.E. If regular camouflage painting is wanted you will have to furnish details and photographs meanwhile we are proceeding with Coronado."

2: (1st December 1941, to Dewar) "It has been agreed that British standard colour of which you have particulars will be suitable for M.E., India and Australia. Any camouflage required will be arranged locally."

3: on the 6th December, there is discussion with regard to a mix up. (from Dewar) "Please read our Plysu 4259W 11/11, we stated Coronado Tan to be used. Authority from your Suply 9472 9/10. Contractors have already taken steps to comply. Now your Suply 12145 states standard British colours suitable." (this being Khaki Green no. 3 at this time) "In as much that we advised Coronado Tan is used  specification please confirm immediately what you agreed upon in Plysu(sic) 12145 1/12."

4: (13th December 1941, to Dewar) "Regret some misunderstanding. Suply 9472 does no apply to Tanks. If inconvenient for Contractors to change we will accept Coronado Tan for M.E. But prefer British Standard Colour."

5: finally, on the 23rd December 1941(from Dewar); "Misunderstanding corrected. Gen. Grant contractors will return to original specification Khaki Green No. 3 after present Suply Coronado Tan runs out."

 

Some things I take from this. Firstly, the use of Coronado Tan is as per "Canadian FORD vehicles" (This was pointed out by Mike, who had only just realised it's significance). Does this possibly imply the use of whatever particular shade Ford Canada were using? I think so. Sadly, as yet, I cannot find out what this particular version was, or indeed that one existed, as I can only find it's use by other Canadian companies in the early 1930s. Also, I have only found records for Ford USA online, at least thus far.

Secondly, the standard colour for Grants at this time was Khaki Green No.3. It is clear this was the colour before the mix up, and afterwards. There has been some conjecture over the use of this colour, but this would appear definite (documentary) proof. Clearly, not using US OD at this time - I'll return to this point later. 

Thirdly, due to the mix up, at least some numbers of M3 Grants will be/are yet to be painted using Coronado Tan as of 23/12/41. This, again, would appear proof that some Grants would be/ have been produced in this colour, either side of that date.

Fourthly, that Khaki Green No. 3 is still being specified by the end of this exchange, which takes place either side of the attack on Pearl Harbour and the USA joining the war. Whether it's use was actually continued is a moot point, but the records at least suggest that was the intention at this time. Perhaps bureaucracy had yet to catch up with events?

 

Now, to bring in some other pieces of information, in order to speculate upon a few things I have thought about in the wake of the above.

@Kingsman, please would you be kind enough to provide copies of the pics that you took of 'Michael's wheels at Bovington? When I compare the swatch seen above (as well as some of Mike's photos, and some photos I have found of classic cars with the commercial colour), I would say that it is an exact match for the 'tan' colour you found on those wheels. Personally, it is such a close match, I simply can't believe that it is just mere coincidence! And another point that might back this up - 'Michael' is a very early M4A1, delivered to the UK in early 1942 - so early is it, in fact, that it still features M3-style wheels and bogies. What if these were produced during this period of Coronado Tan M3s, but just happened to be used, after a quick touch up, on an early M4A1, such as 'Michael'? You said yourself that they may have come from another vehicle - only in this scenario, they are from earlier, not a later change.

 

Then we have the M3 at Bovington, T24689. @Kingsman (I'm not picking on you, honestly! - it's just that they all happen to be your sources!!), please could you provide the photo of the interior of the M3's engine compartment, as you provided on page 5 of the 'SCC2 Shermans' thread? You said in the 'Mid-1942 7th Armoured Division M3 Grant - USA as Supplied Colour' thread that this vehicle is a very early production model from PSC? Therefore, if the sample seen inside the engine compartment is original paint, as you suspected, then I believe that it has to be either Coronado Tan (possibly), or Khaki Green No.3 (very likely), and not US OD, based on the above. That would also tie in with the samples you found on the rivet when examining it.  Also, as an aside, if that colour is almost certainly not US OD, then we cannot use it as an example of that particular colour when comparing it to other vehicles, such as the possibility of SCC2 Shermans, for example (I know, I know, I'm sorry! I'm not doing that to wind you up! I'm just trying to make a valid point, I promise).

 

I think there was something else that I wanted to say, but it's getting very late, and this is already very long, so I'll come back with it in the morning if I remember it.

 

Your thoughts on any of these points will be welcome. I'm also interested what anyone else might be able to bring to the table, as well as collating everything we have together in one place.

 

Discuss!

 

Edited October 26 by thebig-bear

[Kingsman]

The "CMP" notation against Coronado Tan might suggest a Canadian military colour code.  Someone on MLU might be able to help with this.  There are references on the Canadian Archives site to documents about the Canadian paint, pigment and varnish industry year by year under the general reference CS46-210E PDF but none of the links work and a site search doesn't find them.  These might have indicated manufacturers.  Although Canadian plants of US automotive manufacturers still relied on US supplied parts.

 

In 1939 Ford was using a colour called Desert Sand on cars and trucks.

 

In 1941 they were using a browner colour called Conestoga Tan.  I would take the colour swatches here as indicative at best.

 

Chevrolet had a colour called Hollywood Tan throughout the 1930s and 40s, although it appeared in several shades but all were very brown.  This was their only colour called Tan in the period.

 

Chrysler had a colour called Tropical Tan in 1941

 

These are the Tans in use in the USA in 1939.

 

In 1940.

 

In 1941.

 

In 1942.

 

It seems that Diamond T were not using any colour called Tan, much less Coronado Tan, from 1939-42, perhaps debunking that idea.

[Mike Starmer]

Thank you for all this research and posting.  One point I must make is that Colorado Tan must have been fairly close in appearance to Light Stone otherwise it would not have been acceptable for use in M.E.  I only have one soldier's words on this colour saying that '...our new quads looked nice in their Canadian sand colour'.  It is remarkable for the average soldier to comment on the colour of vehicles.   

[Kingsman]

A few photos have emerged purporting to show CMP vehicles factory finished in what has been believed to be Light Stone as they were known to be destined for the Middle East.  This top photo is a GM Otter.  Note that the tool brackets are still a dark colour, potentially Khaki Green.

 

This 12 cab 60L has Ford pattern axles.  Which at least suggests the both Ford and GM were producing vehicles in a "sandy" colour.  But by time that CMP vehicles came to production these would almost certainly have been Light Stone or an acceptable alternative rather than an available commercial colour.  There are CMP 12 and CMP 13 cabs in these photos, suggesting this practice went on for some time.

 

This photo is a mix of CMP and MCP chassis.  The MCPs appear to be the ugly 1942 Model Ford.  The CMP chassis with skeletal rear bed and wheel arch lockers suggests those are destined to be completed as wreckers.  Ford produced F60L chassis for wreckers whereas GM produced C60S.  The Ford and GM body work was different.  Those appear to be F60Ls.  The Universal Carriers are the initial MkI version with the shorter superstructure.  At least 5,000 of these were built at the Ford plant in Windsor ON.  So this would seem to be either a Ford vehicle park or a government depot which has receieved a consignment of Fords. 

 

While not conclusive, many CMPs in N Africa are seen with fully light-coloured paintwork including wheel arches and chassis parts like axles.  Areas not normally depot-painted.  This is a Chevrolet.

 

 

[Kingsman]

There was an automotive colour called Coronado Tan (below).  But it does not seem to have been used after 1933.  After this we see Coronado Greys.  A brown or sandy colour with that name doesn't re-appear until Willys' Coronado Sand in 1954.  With things the way they were in 1940/41, I can't see an old colour being put back into production.  Something current would most probably have been used.

 

It doesn't seem entirely clear to what equipment Dewar was referring with that colour name.  The Purchasing Commission was hoovering up many varieties of US commercial vehicles as well as tanks.  Although that circles us back to Coronado Tan apparently being some years out of use by then.  None of the Tan names apparently in use at the time are readily confusable with Coronado.  In 1940 Sahara Tan and Tropical Tan are good prospects, joined by Taffy Tan in 1941.

 

But are we barking up the wrong tree here?  Grants were all manufactured by railroad companies. 

 

[thebig-bear]

On 27/10/2024 at 05:22, Kingsman said:

A few photos have emerged purporting to show CMP vehicles factory finished in what has been believed to be Light Stone as they were known to be destined for the Middle East.  This top photo is a GM Otter.  Note that the tool brackets are still a dark colour, potentially Khaki Green

 

 

 

 

Superb photos and info, @Kingsman. Thank you.

Edited October 28 by Julien
dont quote all the pics in a reply

[Kingsman]

Thinking of railroads, Chicago and Northwestern Railway used a colour called Coronado Tan on some Caboose - Guard's Vans to us East of the Atlantic.  But this was quite a reddish brown.  According to a 34-page PDF on railroad colours of the USA this is the only colour called Coronado ever used on US railroads.

  

 

These wagons were built by American Car and Foundry from 1928.  AC&F had acquired Pacific Car & Foundry in 1924.  PC&F later built Shermans, but not M3s.  AC&F did not build M3 Mediums at any of their 16 plants across the USA - but they did build M2, M3 and M5 Light Tanks at their main Berwick PA plant and also at St Charles MO.  Some of which would certainly have come to the UK, notably some of the 365 M2A4s and 9,000-odd M3 and M3A1s built at Berwick.

 

Although the few photos of British M2A4s show them in a dark colour, assumed to be OD.  But the colour is tonally very similar to the British uniforms, which were a brownish shade.  But we know that greenish browns and brownish greens are very hard to distinguish.  So could these M2s be brown?  Could that be what Dewar was referring to?  I believe the M2s were a cash purchase: the M3 Light was the first Lend-Lease tank.  We only had 36 M2s which did go to Egypt before being shipped on to India, but came to the UK first.  So a distinctly brown Tan colour when the service colour was Khaki Green and production was probably OD and we had only 10% of it doesn't make a lot of sense.  After the 36 M2s we transitioned to M3s, but by then production was in full swing for the USA as well as us so a colour other than OD seems equally unlikely here.  And this colour is hardly any more ideal for the desert. 

 

Interestingly but probably entirely coincidentally, the M2A3 at US Armor & Cav Collection is finished in a very brown shade - almost certainly not original and not really a Tan.

[Kingsman]

So, are we declaring Coronado Tan to be just a typo or dictation error?  Nothing above stacks up with it being a colour available in 1940/41 or being an appropriate colour depending on whether you think automotive or railroad.

 

Now, whether another Tan was being used and was simply mis-named by Dewar or whoever gave him the info is another question.  But we are still not clear what equipment he was using the name in connection with.  And there is certainly no photo evidence of manufacture output of tanks in anything other than OD.  This would be the key clue, rather than service photos of probable repaints.  M3 Mediums are well researched with many factory photos and I imagine that Hunnicutt and David Doyle would have found anything to be found in their respective coverage of the M3.

 

Another intriguing possibility is that he was referring to French or Dutch(?) contract vehicles being transferred to the UK which might have been a different colour.  I believe the French base colour was quite brownish and I can see brown in the Dutch East Indies.

Edited October 29 by Kingsman
Bad punctuation........

[Mike Starmer]

From what documents I have, the British decided that the the best policy was to accept US vehicles in their standard factory colour, and repaint as necessary in theatre.  The idea of specific customer colours on a huge armoured vehicle production line was a no no to America.  I may be that the Dewar Papers were running on the same lines that the aviation folks were, in that they were obtaining aircraft in British schemes and equivalent colours.  Olive Drab No.9 is not far off Khaki Green 3 so presumably only needed a disruptive pattern in vogue in 1940-41.  Even after the introduction of SCC.2 would a total repaint might to be carried  out immediately after arrival in UK?  Given the dire shortage of materials I doubt it.  I have film of a Grant in a MM type scheme, the base colour of which matches the basic colour of a Scammell recovery in the same sequence.  This must be a repaint.  

[Kingsman]

However, before Lend-Lease or acquiring standard US GI materiel prior to L-L, we were buying commercial softskins with modifications for military use.  As were France and Holland.  Some mods minimal like wheels and tyres, others more substantial like custom bodies.  These would have needed new paint as they had in many cases not then been purchased for US military use or were not then in current US military production.  Paint availability is perhaps more likely to have been a key factor.  I believe this is the confused period in which the mention of Coronado Tan is made, before things had settled down.

 

Of the 3 companies building Grants, Lima famously never doing so, only Baldwin produced both Grants and M3 Mediums starting with M3s a couple of months before Grants but actually building more Grants than M3s.  And again, these were all railroad companies and would have needed to source suitable paints from scratch.  So production interruption for a paint change would not have been the significant isssue here that it would have been for the major automotive companies and others contracted by US Ordnance for GI and L-L materiel.  Including AC&F with M2 and M3 Lights for US Ordnance.

 

But intriguing though it is, I believe we are chasing smoke with Coronado Tan.

 

As for repainted Grants, several were modified at Chertsey with additional equipment with a view to this becoming the standard outfit (below).  Thus needing repainting.  But it was not taken forward.  It seems unclear how many Grants came to the UK: certainly not many as they were urgently needed in N Africa and Australia.  Some M3s came to the UK too including 49 M3A3 or M3A5 diesels.  However the photo below outside the pub on the Hogs Back clearly shows a petrol M3.

 

 

T24500 was a mid-production PSC tank, as were 25004 and 25005.  I think the tank by the pub is 25006.  All built in April '42.  By the time they arrived at least 3 months later SCC2 would have been the authorised colour.  The turret shape of the M3 suggests Chrysler production.  ALCO and Baldwin used turrets from General Steel where the protruding cupola bump went all the way down to the bottom.  Something pretty much every kit maker has missed.  There were 2 distinct variations of Grant turret too.

     

[thebig-bear]

 

7 hours ago, Kingsman said:

So, are we declaring Coronado Tan to be just a typo or dictation error?  Nothing above stacks up with it being a colour available in 1940/41 or being an appropriate colour depending on whether you think automotive or railroad.

 

Now, whether another Tan was being used and was simply mis-named by Dewar or whoever gave him the info is another question.  But we are still not clear what equipment he was using the name in connection with.  And there is certainly no photo evidence of manufacture output of tanks in anything other than OD.  This would be the key clue, rather than service photos of probable repaints.  M3 Mediums are well researched with many factory photos and I imagine that Hunnicutt and David Doyle would have found anything to be found in their respective coverage of the M3.

 

Another intriguing possibility is that he was referring to French or Dutch(?) contract vehicles being transferred to the UK which might have been a different colour.  I believe the French base colour was quite brownish and I can see brown in the Dutch East Indies.

We do know that Dewar specifically states "same color as Canadian Ford Vehicles that are to be shipped to the M.E." I don't know what particular vehicles that would refer to, but the fact that he makes the distinction seems to be of some significance, at least for him at the time, and is really a bit too specific to have just been made in error, surely?

[thebig-bear]

7 hours ago, Mike Starmer said:

From what documents I have, the British decided that the the best policy was to accept US vehicles in their standard factory colour, and repaint as necessary in theatre.  The idea of specific customer colours on a huge armoured vehicle production line was a no no to America.  I may be that the Dewar Papers were running on the same lines that the aviation folks were, in that they were obtaining aircraft in British schemes and equivalent colours.  Olive Drab No.9 is not far off Khaki Green 3 so presumably only needed a disruptive pattern in vogue in 1940-41.  Even after the introduction of SCC.2 would a total repaint might to be carried  out immediately after arrival in UK?  Given the dire shortage of materials I doubt it.  I have film of a Grant in a MM type scheme, the base colour of which matches the basic colour of a Scammell recovery in the same sequence.  This must be a repaint.  

I agree, Mike, but with perhaps one caveat. We know that what made sense isn't always what happened, including what sometimes seems (to me) huge amounts of waste - take using Deep Bronze Green (with it's use of the scarce Chromium Oxide) on bombs of all things(?!), or in the production of literally thousands of unreliable or outclassed, obsolescent tanks that were never going to see service on a battlefield, at a time when every scrap of metal was precious - both chronically stupid, wasteful degrees of idiocy, to my mind. Mix that kind of ineptitude with some good old pre-war levels of bull***t, and I can see some vehicles receiving a repaint just because the CO says so!

Edited October 29 by thebig-bear

[thebig-bear]

48 minutes ago, Kingsman said:

However, before Lend-Lease or acquiring standard US GI materiel prior to L-L, we were buying commercial softskins with modifications for military use.  As were France and Holland.  Some mods minimal like wheels and tyres, others more substantial like custom bodies.  These would have needed new paint as they had in many cases not then been purchased for US military use or were not then in current US military production.  Paint availability is perhaps more likely to have been a key factor.  I believe this is the confused period in which the mention of Coronado Tan is made, before things had settled down.

 

Of the 3 companies building Grants, Lima famously never doing so, only Baldwin produced both Grants and M3 Mediums starting with M3s a couple of months before Grants but actually building more Grants than M3s.  And again, these were all railroad companies and would have needed to source suitable paints from scratch.  So production interruption for a paint change would not have been the significant isssue here that it would have been for the major automotive companies and others contracted by US Ordnance for GI and L-L materiel.  Including AC&F with M2 and M3 Lights for US Ordnance.

 

But intriguing though it is, I believe we are chasing smoke with Coronado Tan.

 

As for repainted Grants, several were modified at Chertsey with additional equipment with a view to this becoming the standard outfit (below).  Thus needing repainting.  But it was not taken forward.  It seems unclear how many Grants came to the UK: certainly not many as they were urgently needed in N Africa and Australia.  Some M3s came to the UK too including 49 M3A3 or M3A5 diesels.  However the photo below outside the pub on the Hogs Back clearly shows a petrol M3.

 

 

T24500 was a mid-production PSC tank, as were 25004 and 25005.  I think the tank by the pub is 25006.  All built in April '42.  By the time they arrived at least 3 months later SCC2 would have been the authorised colour.  The turret shape of the M3 suggests Chrysler production.  ALCO and Baldwin used turrets from General Steel where the protruding cupola bump went all the way down to the bottom.  Something pretty much every kit maker has missed.  There were 2 distinct variations of Grant turret too.

     

I believe that is one of the key points - this period of possibly using Coronado Tan seems to be in the direct purchase era, before lend-lease. I suspect things might have been different while we were still a "customer", rather than what you might call a beneficiary of lend-lease - after all, the customer is always right.

 

One thing I would like to know is exactly why Coronado Tan was being used in lieu of Light Stone in the first place? At a time when Khaki Green No. 3 was able to be obtained/made as the standard colour in both Canada and the UK, why was Light Stone required to be substituted in North America? If someone can answer that point, it would be good to know.

 

[Kingsman]

21 minutes ago, thebig-bear said:

One thing I would like to know is exactly why Coronado Tan was being used in lieu of Light Stone in the first place?

We still don't know that it was.  Other than a single mention without context there is no proof.  I thought the point of this debate was to explore likely evidence.  All of which thus far comes up empty.

 

In 1940 Light Stone was not yet in use, or was barely in use.  That would be one reason why it wasn't being used.  Early desert colours included the darker and browner Mid Stone as a base and Dark Sand as a disruptor before Portland and Light Stones came along.  Both Mid Stone and Dark Sand could be considered to be Tans, noting that Tan is a very broad description and in US parlance can be used interchangeably with Brown.  So a Tan might conceivably have been considered to be an alternative to Mid Stone. 

 

And of course the USA did not make BS-matched colours.  Although they probably could given the specification, but equally probably did not wish to.  US and British paint specifications were considerably different although that would have been less important than the pigmentation and perceived colour.  Effect rather than constituents.  Canada was a different situation as they accorded far more closely with British practice on paint colours and used UK-matched colours until at least 1944.  There are opinions that US OD was adopted by Canada in 1944 instead of SCC15 because of easy availability across the border.  But the jury is still very much out on that question too.  Another enigma yet to be proved.

 

 

[thebig-bear]

2 hours ago, Kingsman said:

I thought the point of this debate was to explore likely evidence. 

It is. I don't see why you now think that it is not.

 

2 hours ago, Kingsman said:

We still don't know that it was.  Other than a single mention without context there is no proof.

 

What I meant to say was, if Coronado Tan was being considered as a possible substitute for something such as Light Sand, then why might that have been the case, and why was the latter unavailable?

 

2 hours ago, Kingsman said:

In 1940 Light Stone was not yet in use, or was barely in use.  That would be one reason why it wasn't being used.  Early desert colours included the darker and browner Mid Stone as a base and Dark Sand as a disruptor before Portland and Light Stones came along.  Both Mid Stone and Dark Sand could be considered to be Tans, noting that Tan is a very broad description and in US parlance can be used interchangeably with Brown.  So a Tan might conceivably have been considered to be an alternative to Mid Stone. 

I didn't realise that, so thank you for the explanation. However, you had mentioned Light Stone above, earlier, so that was why I was assuming it was the comparable shade when commenting on it's possible substitution.

 

2 hours ago, Kingsman said:

And of course the USA did not make BS-matched colours.  Although they probably could given the specification, but equally probably did not wish to.  US and British paint specifications were considerably different although that would have been less important than the pigmentation and perceived colour.  Effect rather than constituents.  Canada was a different situation as they accorded far more closely with British practice on paint colours and used UK-matched colours until at least 1944.  There are opinions that US OD was adopted by Canada in 1944 instead of SCC15 because of easy availability across the border.  But the jury is still very much out on that question too.  Another enigma yet to be proved.

Indeed. Except that, in this case, I would point out that Dewar and his colleagues named within the papers, A; specifically mention "British Standard Colour" on three separate occasions (ie Khaki Green No.3, which is actually mentioned once by name), B; includes a line which confirms "of which you have particulars", referring to K.G. no3, and C; mentions Coronado Tan repeatedly, multiple times, by name, including the reference to Canadian Ford.

 

Why were British colours even being mentioned if they knew there was no possibility of their being used? Is it so impossible that non-US Army manufacture, during the direct purchase era, could not have been supplied in the paint we wanted? Furthermore, if the theory of US OD being used on Canadian production is thought of as possible in 1944, supposedly due to the ease of obtaining it, then why not the reverse during 1941? However, I would still probably concur with what Mike said earlier, that the Americans more than likely said no, full stop. But, if so, why is there even mention of those paints, as above?

 

Whatever the particulars are, clearly some sort of tan colour was being discussed for use at the production level vs some sort of khaki/drab colour, for use on Grants, for a certain duration, due to a misunderstanding that had occurred, and that it is the same as that used on Canadian Ford production for vehicles heading to M.E. That much is clear.

 

Edited October 29 by thebig-bear
Spelling and grammar, plus additions

[thebig-bear]

Btw, the papers refer to both Coranado and Coronado, as well as to Coranado Tanou S Q M specification. Does this help, perhaps?

[Kingsman]

If the colour comment was applied specifically to Ford Canada then it can only apply to commercial vehicles, most probably trucks.  This was before the arrival of Canadian Military Pattern (CMP) trucks, which were produced in BS colours.  Once CMPs arrived the designation Modified Commercial Pattern (MCP) came into use for what were essentially minimally modified commercial trucks.  Which we were buying before they became known as MCPs.

 

The picture of the park of Ford Canada vehicles I posted earlier illustrates both.  But that must be 1942 and so the colour will be Light Stone by then.

 

There is a lot less information about vehicle paints in use in Canada in the period compared to the USA. Ford Canada produced essentially the same products as Ford USA. Whether they offered different colours is a question.  But they would have been Ford colours, possibly imported.  Many components were imported. Ford Canada was essentially an assembly operation and it took them some time to tool up to actually build CMPs from scratch.

 

And as far as we have determined, Ford were not using a colour called Coronado at that time.  If we could be in 1941 for the comment, Ford had a colour called Conestoga Tan which might have been a passable match for Mid Stone.  And the name could be confused, mis-heard etc

 

Canada adhered to British colour practice but would not have had an approved desert colour available.  Why would they?  BS Light Stone was probably their first authorised desert colour, as seen on the Ford and GM vehicles above.  So prior to that an alternative might have been needed.

 

Canada also explains the Khaki Green reference as that would have been the standard Canadian colour of the day. As Mike S has said, Olive Drab No9/22 was accepted as a Khaki Green substitute for US supply.  Even for tanks known to be heading for places where it was not a suitable colour.  About 1,200 of the 1,600 Grants went to Egypt and Australia where they were immediately repainted in a pale base colour. It would have been more economical to repaint in a dark colour the 400 or so that went to India and the UK.  Hindsight.

[Mike Starmer]

A couple of points. Deep Bronze Green or any of the Bronze Greens do not need Chromium Oxide Green in their production.  This pigment has natural anti-IR properties which is why it was chosen as the basis of Khaki Green No.3.  Lend-lease began in March 1941, the Dewar papers are dated November and December 1941.  It is highly regrettable that documents preceding and following the discussion ware not kept.  The paint may have been obtained by Canada as part of the LL agreement.   Unless they are in another TNA file.  In the book 'Recon for Rommel', there are a number of colour photographs, not colourised.  A close up of two Chevrolet lorry front clearly show a pinkish tinge to the base colour as does a Ford 15cwt.  All ex-2nd Armoured Div.  This makes me wonder if the Coronado Tan was one of the pale pinkish shades on the company charts.  

[thebig-bear]

48 minutes ago, Mike Starmer said:

A couple of points. Deep Bronze Green or any of the Bronze Greens do not need Chromium Oxide Green in their production.  This pigment has natural anti-IR properties which is why it was chosen as the basis of Khaki Green No.3.  Lend-lease began in March 1941, the Dewar papers are dated November and December 1941.  It is highly regrettable that documents preceding and following the discussion ware not kept.  The paint may have been obtained by Canada as part of the LL agreement.   Unless they are in another TNA file.  In the book 'Recon for Rommel', there are a number of colour photographs, not colourised.  A close up of two Chevrolet lorry front clearly show a pinkish tinge to the base colour as does a Ford 15cwt.  All ex-2nd Armoured Div.  This makes me wonder if the Coronado Tan was one of the pale pinkish shades on the company charts.  

Re both DBG and the start date of lend-lease, I'll admit that I was clearly very mistaken on both counts - thank you for putting me straight, Mike.

 

Interesting thoughts re Coronado Tan being pinkish in some way. For myself, I've been wondering if it might have been a shade comparable in some ways with SCC4, which of course was used by the Canadians for Husky in 1943, instead of Light Mud. The swatches, the door, etc, (if they are indeed the correct sort of shade) are in that ballpark.

Edited October 30 by thebig-bear

[Kingsman]

Colour film of the era is not reliable for colour as it all introduced colour shifts, generally making images appear too blue or green.  Often seen in other areas of the image such as too-blue sky, zombie flesh tones or odd colours of things where you do know the colour.  Printing of images is also unreliable because of the limitations of ink mixing.  Which means that book pictures are doubly unreliable as a colour reference.  Colour chips are the only reliable source, which is of course why Mike S uses them in his publications, but are very hard to find.  And then we run into the vagaries of digital reproduction and presentation of them, discussed at length previously.  Even as recently as a dozen years ago when I worked in the MOD team responsible for purchasing photographic equipment we put considerable effort into ensuring accurate colour in printed reproductions of imagery, most particularly those for evidential use rather than PR etc, with special colour-balancing software.  Although even that relied on assuming the original digital image being compared to be colour-correct.

 

For me, the question of Coronado Tan boils down to there being no evidence discovered thus far indicating that a colour with this name was in use in the North American automotive industry at the time.  Yes, there had been a colour with that name some years before - which implies that it could be manufactured again.  But it seems to be tied to Ford in the Dewar context, who were not using a colour of that name in the time period in question.  Paints of course came from independent 3rd-party suppliers which means in theory that any colour could have been used by any manufacturer.  And for marketing purposes different auto companies would probably not use the same name for the same paint colour.  I have not looked at the colour information tables above to see if there are any paint manufacturer codes with different auto company names.  The colour swatches in those tables are broadly indicative at best.

 

The use of a description including the letters "QM" suggests a military quartermaster connection.  There was no colour with this name in the US Corps of Engineers or QM Corps colour palette of the era.  Did Canada have such a colour in its military inventory?  We don't seem to have established this.  Interestingly, Canada did experiment with a 3-colour disruptive scheme.  There are some monochrome images of a CMP truck but right now I can't track any down.  Might one of those colours be our elusive Coronado Tan?  Or is it just an incorrect name for Ford's Conestoga Tan?

[JackG]

From the MLU forums FB account another light coloured CMP with snow on the ground ;

 

A short thread from the MLU forum on the tan paint subject. 

http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/showthread.php?t=23021&highlight=Coronado+Tan

 

It includes another link to missinglynx discussion.   Seems the intended use of Coronado Tan was for B vehicles only but somehow Grant Tanks were similarly painted.  A memo was passed stating after stocks were used up to return to Kahki Green no.3 dated 23rd December 1941.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/response-to-mark-and-paul-below-colours-of-us-m3-l-t97131.html

 

Apologies if these links or info were already presented.

[Paul Lucas]

And the FS number was. . .?

[Kingsman]

57 minutes ago, Paul Lucas said:

And the FS number was. . .?

Not relevant to WW2 as FS did not then exist and the colour being discussed is from 1978.

 

The MLU thread just confuses the issue.  I have seen it before.  The statement "A small number of Grants were finished in a US automotive colour, 'Coronado Tan' in late 1942" cannot possibly be correct as Grant production ceased at all manufacturers in July 1942.  The mention of a mid-November 1941 document in Mike S' possession makes little sense in the context of Grant production as that had commenced in August at PSC and PSCC and October at Baldwin.  Assuming that directive was enacted by the end of December, the great majority of Grants would have been output in this colour.  Which means there would be plenty of evidence.  And there is none.  I can't see Baldwin doing it as they were co-producing M3s for the US and they followed US direction to switch from petrol to diesel propulsion contrary to contract and British wishes.  If PSC and PSCC had produced hundreds of Grants in this colour it would have been known long before now.  Was it done temporarily in error?  Maybe.  Is there evidence? No.

 

The thread says "we know that Diamond T's were painted in Coronado Tan".  We don't.  Someone found a tan colour on part of a Diamond T of unknown provenance.  This is not proof of production colour.

 

Contradicting the Dewar mention of Coronado Tan in the context of Ford Canada, the thread says "Any reference to paint colours I have found in Canadian sources note Light Stone, but not Coronado Tan".   And then asks "Would anyone have more information about Canadian Ford vehicles being painted Coronado Tan? Any input on this subject is appreciated!".  Which circles us right back to where this thread began.

 

At the top of that MLU thread the poster asks about the colour of Australian Diamond Ts.  We know that Grants and M3 Mediums were all fully repainted in Australian colours, so it would be safe to assume that their Diamond Ts were too.  A Tan would potentially have been too brown and too dark for them.

 

Nothing else in that thread is any any way conclusive and some is just hearsay.  The debate and quest continues

Edited October 31 by Kingsman
Bad spelling!

[JackG]

I would have to assume the Shane Lovell quote was a typo concerning late 1942.  The original quote was at missinglynx and the full posting began with the statement about a collection of files dating from late 1940 to Feb 1942.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kingsman]

A typo could be assumed.  Or the information could just be wrong.  Late 1941 rather than 1942 would certainly fit better with other information in that thread.

 

One thing we're all missing here is that an automotive colour would have been fairly glossy.  I'm not sure that paints of that era were as high-gloss as todays's but they would certainly have had some sheen. Preserved vehicles of the era are generally turned out in a high gloss but that is with modern paint.  We tend to think of colour and shade but ignore finish.  Noting that US Army colours of the period were described as "lusterless", i.e. flat matt.  And that in the 1920s and 30s there were gloss versions of OD for administrative vehicles.  A gloss colour is not a good idea for a combat vehicle like the Grant.  It may have been acceptable in a pinch for B vehicles like trucks.  But glint was a significant problem in the desert.  Cab windows were painted to slits and the CMP 13 cab with its reverse-sloped windscreen was designed specifically to reduce glint.  So I see a glossy paint being a problem for N Africa.  Could an existing glossy colour have been made in a matt finish?  I imagine so.  But that is more faffing about when the whole idea of using Coronado Tan - if indeed it was used - would seem to be to take advantage of an existing available acceptable colour in a time of crisis.

 

As for Grants of whatever vintage, I'm not sure that I see it.  5 companies produced the M3 family: Chrysler and ALCO building M3s for the US, PSC and PSCC building Grants for the UK for cash and Baldwin building some of each.  The manufacture distribution was deliberate to make most efficient use of available manufacturing capacity.  As Baldwin were building both types and, as I noted above, followed the US direction to do something as fundamental as change powerplant on Grants as well as M3s, I don't see them going along with a British paint change.  PSC and PSCC were making nothing for US Ordnance at the time and so would have been able to follow British direction.  Could they have produced some in this elusive colour? Maybe.  But as US Ordnance was involved in the Grant project from the beginning - although not the purchasing authority and never type-classifying the Grant with an M number - and as US OD had been accepted as a Khaki Green substitute, I can see the first port of call for another colour being the US Army Corps of Engineers Standard Camouflage Colors colour set.  Sand No3, Earth Yellow No6 or Desert Sand No12 would all potentially have been suitable and were available.  No3 Sand was a greyish shade not unlike the later IDF Sand Grey, No6 Earth Yellow was a warm yellow somewhat yellower than Light Stone and No12 Desert Sand was a pinkish shade somewhat like the British Desert Pink.

  

 

While these are colour chips rather than ink-printed swatches, they come from this publication.  So their provenance is uncertain - US Army or Modeler's Journal? - but I have no reason to doubt their colour accuracy.  But do take the image here as indicative only because they were photographed in less than ideal light.  And definitely take the FS numbers with at least a small pinch of salt as there is no direct relationship between the WW2 colours Nos 1 -12 and FS numbers.  And we know the controversy over OD No9, the 1944 formula change and FS34087 in different editions of the FS colour set.  BTW, OD No9 and OD No22 were the same colour.  The Quartermaster Corps for some reason decided to call OD No22 in its catalogue while the Corps of Engineers - who were responsible for devising the colours - called it No9.  Same colour, 2 numbers.

 

And if we had hit upon a suitable colour for the desert and Australia, where the great majority of Grants were heading, why didn't we stick with it?  And why did Lima start producing Shermans in OD when initial production was for the UK for cash and they were intended to go to the desert?  Lima owed us 400 Shermans for the 400 Grants they were unable to build under our cash purchase.  Although the deal was subsumed into Lend-Lease after the first 28 tanks, all of which were OD.

 

In David Doyle's well-researched (but still with some goofs) 3cm thick recent tome on the M3 family there is no hard evidence of Grants actually being produced in anything other than OD.  This is the sort of thing that there would have been some PR photos of, and if any photos existed I'm sure he would have found and published them.  However, he does repeat the same comments we are discussing about Grants being painted Coronado Tan.  On 13 November 1941 it is said that Grants "would be" - not "are being" - painted Coranado Tan as per Canadian Fords.  But on 23 December that decision is reversed to return to Khaki Green once Coranado Tan paint on hand is used up.  We know that OD was a substitute for Khaki Green and it concerns me that Khaki Green name is still being used when OD was accepted as the colour being used, so there is a degree of inaccuracy here.  Could the Coranado Tan name be equally inaccurate? 

 

As Baldwin were co-building M3s I can't see them implementing that change, or at least protesting long enough for it to become irrelevant 5 weeks later.  And I can see US Ordnance having a thing or two to say about complicating production there with 2 colours in the paint shop.  Maybe PSC and PSCC did do it.  If we assume they did for the whole of December by the time they had got the paint in that would be 79 tanks.  January production was another 121 but if the order was contermanded at the end of December I can't see paint stock lasting longer than the end of January.  Photos of February 1942 built PSCC tanks show OD.  Photos of the PSCC production line in late November show OD, as do photos of the PSC production line in December.  Which suggest that the change was never actually implemented.

 

Lighting of period photos is a problem.  In some photographs there are Grants which appear to potentially be a colour other than OD.  Yet in other photos the same tank is clearly OD.  In strong sunlight OD can appear paler.  But in contradiction of his reference to Coronado Tan, Doyle notes "As completed, the Grant tanks were painted in a dark color, presumably Olive Drab."  That comment is made in a caption of a photograph taken at PSCC but I believe is intended to be general.

 

Another factor in play is the implementation of the Lend-Lease Act in March 1941.  This interposed the US Government between the British Purchasing Commission and US manufacturers but although Grant production began well after Lend-Lease in August 1941 it did not bring Grant production under direct US supervision until April 1942 for roughly the final 20% of production.  So it can be relatively safely assumed that OD was the order of the day from April 1942 regardless of what might have gone before.