The elusive 'Coronado Tan' (plus; was Khaki Green No.3 used on Grants?; Khaki Green and US OD compared, Pullman Green?, etc)

[thebig-bear]

19 hours ago, Kingsman said:

Although there was at one point a clear interest in adopting the French 47mm L/50 SA37/39 in preference to both US 37mm and UK 2pdr.  France was looking to have that weapon made in the US along with S35 and Char B1 tanks.

That's interesting too. I understand it was a very good gun for the time period.

[Kingsman]

@thebig-bear I thought I had captured something among about 700 document images which suggested that Shermans were intended to be Khaki Green too.  But perhaps I mis-speed-read it, because i haven't found it. 

 

I suspect that it was the intent because it was our standard and it now seems conclusive that we had Grants painted thus. And we did initially contract Shermans for cash as Grant replacements, not knowing that the US would join the war and Lend-Lease would soon appear.  Sherman production was originally predicted to begin in December 1941 - at about the time that Khaki Green was re-confirmed for Grants - but didn't begin until March '42.  Lend-Lease meant OD.

 

But I'm leaning towards at least the first 28 Shermans before they were folded into Lend-Lease being Khaki Green.  And I doubt that the switch to OD was instant. That included Michael, and I believe we have already concluded that the Michael hull chips are more like Khaki Green than OD.

 

Rams we know began as Khaki Green and transitioned to SCC2. Grizzlies are more of a conundrum.  Too late for Khaki Green, but I haven't seen anyone advocating that they were SCC2.  As they were intended to be interchangeable with US built Shermans and all the parts came from the US, it is fair to conclude that they were OD.

Edited December 12, 2024 by Kingsman
Date(s) correction

[Paul Lucas]

On 10/12/2024 at 23:19, Kingsman said:

I imagine that the 5 sets of paint specs requested from ICI were fairly hefty and may have gone in a "sea bag".

Not necessarily. I have copies of all the major aircraft paint specifications issued by the Air Ministry or Ministry of Aircraft Production during the Second World War period and none of them could be described as being 'hefty'.

 

For example, the Ministry of Aircraft Production issue of DTD 308 'Specification Matt Cellulose Finishes and Primer' reprinted in July 1940 runs to just four single sided pages of foolscap. 

 

In view of the timeline set out above, the critical question as to the identity of the 'bright' green seen in the photos is how quickly the US paint manufacturers could get Khaki Green No. 3 into production and supply it to the tank manufacturers in useful quantities once they had received the Specifications and colour chips.

 

In Britain, it seems to take about six months to get a new aircraft colour introduced under wartime conditions. The timeline in this instance suggests that there was only four months at best between the information being sent to the US and the first tanks being delivered. So I think that the 'bright' green might be the closest colour to Khaki Green No.3 that was commercially available that met the technical requirements of the relevant British paint Specification.

 

Is there anything like that 'bright' green in the US QMG pallette in 1941?

[thebig-bear]

On 11/12/2024 at 13:13, Kingsman said:

@thebig-bear I thought I had captured something among about 700 document images which suggested that Shermans were intended to be Khaki Green too.  But perhaps I mis-speed-read it, because i haven't found it. 

 

Oh, that's a shame. That was just what I was thinking you were going to produce!

On 11/12/2024 at 13:13, Kingsman said:

I suspect that it was the intent because it was our standard and it now seems conclusive that we had Grants painted thus. And we did initially contract Shermans for cash as Grant replacements, not knowing that the US would join the war and Lend-Lease would soon appear.  Sherman production was originally predicted to begin in December 1941 - at about the time that Khaki Green was re-confirmed for Grants - but didn't begin until March '42.  Lend-Lease meant OD.

 

But I'm leaning towards at least the first 28 Shermans before they were folded into Lend-Lease being Khaki Green.  And I doubt that the switch to OD was instant. That included Michael, and I believe we have already concluded that the Michael hull chips are more like Khaki Green than OD.

I think what you suggest is a distinct possibility, especially with just how well those chips on Michael match up with Khaki Green No.3.

[thebig-bear]

10 hours ago, Paul Lucas said:

In view of the timeline set out above, the critical question as to the identity of the 'bright' green seen in the photos is how quickly the US paint manufacturers could get Khaki Green No. 3 into production and supply it to the tank manufacturers in useful quantities once they had received the Specifications and colour chips.

 

In Britain, it seems to take about six months to get a new aircraft colour introduced under wartime conditions. The timeline in this instance suggests that there was only four months at best between the information being sent to the US and the first tanks being delivered. So I think that the 'bright' green might be the closest colour to Khaki Green No.3 that was commercially available that met the technical requirements of the relevant British paint Specification.

The one issue I have with this point is that the green discovered by Kingsman in the nooks and crannies does not even remotely resemble Khaki Green No.3! Without wishing to cause offence, I cannot see how it could possibly have been acceptable as a substitute.

 

In my opinion, it is either evidence of the use of an entirely different, as yet unidentified colour (due to some as yet unknown reason), or of a repaint that was applied somewhat later. Personally, I just can't see it as a substitute for KG No.3. If that particular Grant had ever been in British use outside of the UK, I would suggest a theatre-specific colour was possible, but we know that it wasn't.

Edited December 13, 2024 by thebig-bear

[Paul Lucas]

@thebig-bear, none taken. 

But something similar happened with aircraft built for Britain in the US. During the summer of 1940 it was decided that pretty much every operational day flying aircraft in the inventory was to have a colour called 'Sky' on the under surfaces. 

 

Sky is a pale grey green colour (BS 381C No.210). This does not appear to have been adequately communicated to the US aircraft manufacturers who were asked to apply 'duck egg blue'. Even if they were given the correct name 'Sky', it is counterintuitive to think that a colour called Sky would be anything other than a shade of blue.

 

Sky was eventually put into production in the US, but until it became widely available at least three US aircraft manufacturers supplied aircraft to Britain that were finished in a light blue colour that looked nothing like Sky on their under surfaces. Following arrival in the UK, they had to be repainted in the correct colour.

 

I can't imagine that the production line would be brought to a halt because the correct shade of green paint was not available. What would the customer rather have, tanks that were a slightly different shade of green to that required, or no tanks at all?

[Kingsman]

In which context I would add Churchill's somewhat later comment to the effect that even a bad tank is better than no tank at all, referring to the tank named after him. If the Churchill was released to service with the litany of mechanical faults and design issues it had, then paint colour is hardly likely to be a red card issue.

 

And in the Sky vs blue situation we of course have the mis-identification for decades of the Silver Grey colour in the "Caunter" scheme as a bright blue, which also comes down to a misunderstanding of the underside colour of RAF aircraft then in N Africa with which it was compared.  Silver Grey was a close match for proper Sky Type S, a pale green, but was assumed to be one of the blue underside colours used later in the Mediterranean.

 

Agreed that the green on the Grant is neither KG3 nor OD as we understand them.  But it is as far as I can tell the paint layer immediately over the primer and in some places over unprimed bare metal.  It is therefore logical to conclude that this was PSC's attempt at KG3.  The 2 PSCC Grants supplied at the same time have not survived so we do not have the comparator of another manufacturer.  It is not an absolute that they were using the same colour.  Both were railroad companies and both would have had existing paint suppliers, who I'm certain would have been their first contacts for different paint.  As large organisations they may even have had their own paint shops.  PSCC also operated trains and had their own brand colour, a sort of brownish olive green - and it has been suggested elsewhere that this colour may have been the inspiration for the US Army OD.  Pullman trains ran all over the USA and I'm sure that senior officers and officials would have been regular users.  Which opens up another can of wriggly worms with the thought that PSCC might have used their carriage colour.  A situation unique to them among Grant assemblers as both builders and operators.  PSC and Baldwin built railroad equipment for multiple operators but did not operate it.

 

Moving on from here, it is not a given that other Grants from PSC or elsewhere were that same colour.  This was PSC's first attempt.  However, there is no telegram correspondence to indicate that there was any unhappiness with the colours of Grants supplied anywhere.  To the main operational theatre in the Middle East the baseline colour made little difference as repainting was required.  Australian tanks seem to have been quickly repainted, and I'm fairly certain that the precise shade of green made little difference in India and Burma, where the majority of OD Lees were also operated.  And there was telegram correspondence about cut plate tolerances, gear pressure angles, edge bevels for welding, welding the insides of rivets, welding rod standards and a host of other detail-focussed technical matters.  In which context I am sure that if something was unacceptably wrong with the colour, something would have been said.  The only colours mentioned are KG3 and Coronado Tan.

 

As an interesting aside in that context, there is a telegram noting that US-spec M3 Mediums would have unarmoured mild steel hull floors and questioning whether we wanted armour plate hull floors.

 

As for Coronado Tan and Canadian Fords, if we really want to have a go at identifying a colour that we seem to have convinced ourselves was never used on tanks, or on so few that it was never captured, then we need side-by-side photos of a factory-fresh CMP truck in Light Stone or KG3 with an MCP truck which is clearly different.  But to be absolutely sure, the gold standard would be a line-up of a CMP in KG3, a CMP in Light Stone and an MCP in a colour that is neither.  Which still won't tell us what the colour actually was, but only give a tonal indication.  But that is probably a quest for a train that will never come.  And if it wasn't used on tanks - the whole nub of this quest - then why bother?  Unless you are absolutely desperate to paint an ICM Ford V3000 as an MCP 1941-pattern Canadian Ford.  But we have yet to find evidence that the colour was even used on trucks.  The suggestion of that colour appears to have come from US Ordnance and might still have been lost in translation across the 39th parallel.

 

So what if anthing can we conclude so far?

• Grants were painted an US approximation of KG3, not OD
• Grants were almost certainly never painted Coronado Tan
• The US KG3 might not have been a particularly close match for UK and Canadian KG3
• "Canadian M3s" - Rams - were concurrently specified as KG3, which was probably a very much closer match for UK KG3
• Grant production had all but ended before the substitution of KG3 with SCC2, which did affect Rams.
• We will never know exactly what colour Coronado Tan was, and it is probably a wild goose chase for a red herring(!)
• We will never know exactly what colour(s) any US matches for KG3 looked like.  Like it or not, the areas on the Bovington Grant are the only comparator.
• Michael and perhaps 2-3 dozen other early M4A1s were painted Khaki Green.  Any with the fixed hull MGs would be probable as only about 3 dozen were built with those.

[Paul Lucas]

With regard to the Caunter Scheme, there might have been some variation in the colours used to apply it.

 

In Crete during April 1941 a combination of colours that were listed as Portland Stone, Silver Grey and Light Grey were used. Depending on what shade this Light Grey was, it could perhaps be described colloquially as being a shade of 'light blue' when viewed in conjunction with Portland Stone and Silver Grey.

Edited December 14, 2024 by Paul Lucas
Spelling

[thebig-bear]

2 hours ago, Kingsman said:

So what if anthing can we conclude so far?

• Grants were painted an US approximation of KG3, not OD
• Grants were almost certainly never painted Coronado Tan
• The US KG3 might not have been a particularly close match for UK and Canadian KG3
• "Canadian M3s" - Rams - were concurrently specified as KG3, which was probably a very much closer match for UK KG3
• Grant production had all but ended before the substitution of KG3 with SCC2, which did affect Rams.
• We will never know exactly what colour Coronado Tan was, and it is probably a wild goose chase for a red herring(!)
• We will never know exactly what colour(s) any US matches for KG3 looked like.  Like it or not, the areas on the Bovington Grant are the only comparator.
• Michael and perhaps 2-3 dozen other early M4A1s were painted Khaki Green.  Any with the fixed hull MGs would be probable as only about 3 dozen were built with those.

Sounds a pretty good summary to me.

 

2 hours ago, Kingsman said:

Michael and perhaps 2-3 dozen other early M4A1s were painted Khaki Green.  Any with the fixed hull MGs would be probable as only about 3 dozen were built with those.

Might be able to help there.....

 

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.pinimg.com%2Foriginals%2F33%2Fad%2Fe7%2F33ade726f39b3cd51cdda6577feaab9f.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=bf740f9e2f6fc8388e87d7395b1e4139c663e6bacb42e04084fc5c0fa52f1995&ipo=images

 

I found this in passing the other day. Allowing for all of the usual caveats, it certainly looks like it could be Khaki Green No.3 to my eye. (I imagine that a blue bias (judging by the sky) would have made OD look greener, whereas this is distinctly brown (dare I say Khaki), and is very much like Mike's Vallejo mix for KG no.3)

 

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fi168.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu175%2Fwwrsimon%2Fbits%20and%20bobs%2Fkhaki-green-3-mixes_1.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=0e751c60088c8c245c512338e7021908b6265759e0af8c6601265844292c7e30&ipo=images

 

Edit: some sources seem to suggest the pic of the M4A1 above might have been one of the collection taken at Fort Knox in 1942, but I can neither prove nor disprove that at the moment. I will continue looking into it.

Edited December 13, 2024 by thebig-bear

[JackG]

The railroad paints is an interesting aspect.   By no means far fetched as that is exactly what Germany did for their first tropical paint scheme for equipment destined for North Africa.   Both RAL 8000 and 7008, described as yellow-brown and grey-green, were well established colours from their rail industry.

Edited December 13, 2024 by JackG

[thebig-bear]

1 hour ago, JackG said:

The railroad paints is an interesting aspect.   By no means far fetched as that is exactly what Germany did for their first tropical paint scheme for equipment destined for North Africa.   Both RAL 8000 and 7008, described as yellow-brown and grey-green, were well established colours from their rail industry.

Good to know, @JackG. I had never heard that.

 

There seem to have been similar crossovers here in the UK, as Middle Bronze Green was used by the Southern Railway on their locomotives and passenger rolling stock in the 1920s and early to mid '30s, while "Express Passenger Green" - as used on British Railways' locomotives in the 1950s and '60s - was apparently none other than Deep Bronze Green. These colours were, of course, also famously used in the automotive industry.

 

So I agree, Kingsman's theory is quite plausible.

Edited December 13, 2024 by thebig-bear

[thebig-bear]

Here is a definite possibility. I'm investigating further.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pullman_Company#/media/File:Chandler-Arizona_Railroad_museum-Superintendent's_Car-1927.JPG

 

Edit: Looks like it could be either Pullman Green, made by Dupont, or another similar colour used by the Santa Fe Railroad called Santa Fe Coach Green. Still investigating.

 

Further Edit: Seems to be Pullman-Standard's "Brewster Green" (aka Pullman Green) that we are after. Looks promising. Still investigating.

Edited December 13, 2024 by thebig-bear

[thebig-bear]

This page might be of interest.

 

https://utahrails.net/pass/pullman-green.php

[thebig-bear]

This Brewster Green/Pullman Green is very interesting.

 

When newly applied, it resembles something very much akin to Middle Bronze Green, though maybe a tad darker (just like the patches Kingsman said he found on the right side, and why I made that particular suggestion), but it later ages and fades to a slightly less yellow and maybe a little more washed out green, not unlike that found inside the vision slit on the side door. It was a readily available paint of the period, being made by Dupont among others, for use right through the '30s and into the '40s by lots of different auto manufacturers (and is indeed still used today, being a popular colour on Porsches, apparently, although that seems a shade darker than seen on coaches - but then, the Porsches have a high gloss finish, so maybe that is having an effect?). It was used regularly as one of the main colours by the Pullman-Standard Company for their rolling stock in the US, so it was therefore on-hand and ready to use in bulk within the factory.

 

So, all in all, there are a lot of points which are starting to fit together quite nicely. Having looked at probably a few hundred photos of this colour this evening, I'm really starting to think this might be our mystery green. I will keep digging.

 

Edited December 14, 2024 by thebig-bear

[thebig-bear]

On 03/12/2024 at 14:18, Kingsman said:

Agreed,  But looking at the extent and sloppiness of the later over paints I don't think so.  Also inside the episcope is bare metal.  For comparison, here is how the area on the right side was sloppily repainted.  With flash again.  The pictures I posted above were left side.

 

 

 

 

Now for a few examples - Compare the above with these:

https://oldchevytrucks.com/pt402g.html

 

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2F1932fordregistry.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2017%2F12%2F32-ford-williams-1024x683.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=579ad4feb7b54f5de335d37e3290a9390279af9e1f4692a04ad941347ae1acbd&ipo=images

 

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.schmitt.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2019%2F09%2F1930-Ford-Model-A-Deluxe-Rumble-Seat-Roadster-23.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=807792140635cb7870a532098839f0ffdeba3b36bc455f86292e456658f074f3&ipo=images

Edited December 14, 2024 by thebig-bear

[thebig-bear]

On 03/12/2024 at 01:08, Kingsman said:

 

 

 

And compare the above with this:

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Flive.staticflickr.com%2F8722%2F16944509432_843c8450aa_b.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=01f7ac2d37a7312a834681b3fa6caae3f0ec9e17224213845db0edb118ce3a4f&ipo=images

 

 

[Kingsman]

The Canadians were specifically told that the addition of sand or grit to paint to achieve a non-reflective surface was permissible.  So I'm assuming that wasn't part of the standard paint spec.  Presumably for brushing as that would be nigh on impossible to spray.  But there is no record of the same being said to the US.

[thebig-bear]

24 minutes ago, Kingsman said:

The Canadians were specifically told that the addition of sand or grit to paint to achieve a non-reflective surface was permissible.  So I'm assuming that wasn't part of the standard paint spec.  Presumably for brushing as that would be nigh on impossible to spray.  But there is no record of the same being said to the US.

@Kingsman, yes, I have heard that before, somewhere. (Also, Mike includes somewhere in his book a British instruction from later in the war regarding the addition of fine sand to dark brown paint when it is to be applied to helmets.)

 

I'm assuming you refer to this re the need for a matte finish? However, from what I have been reading, it sounds to me as though this Brewster Green was available in many different forms besides gloss, such as eggshell and emulsion, so it was not necessarily a problem. Sorry, I meant to mention that in the earlier post. If I can find it I will include it, but as I have read so much about this colour this evening, I can't remember where it was just at the moment!

Edited December 14, 2024 by thebig-bear

[thebig-bear]

Having delved further, there appear to be two Brewster Greens, Medium and Light. The one which seems to match very well with our mystery green is Brewster Green Light (at least I believe it's that one) . Now, I'm not sure at the moment which PSC used of either the medium and light versions, or whether it was both - sources vary. However, I do know that both colours seem to have been readily available at the time. 

I'll keep digging.

 

Edited December 15, 2024 by thebig-bear
Spelling and grammar

[Mike Starmer]

My first impression of the colour on the Pullman was Middle Brunswick Green which is a blue green.  Many years ago, I read somewhere that 'Michael' originally had black disruptive patches which resembled the pattern No.9 for a large tank (M3 Lee in this case) in the Corps of Engineers FM5-1 October 1942 and the photograph with the article did show dark patches.  It may have been one of Steve Zologa's articles.  

[thebig-bear]

Firstly, may I wish everyone a Happy New Year!

 

Now, hopefully, this will work - fingers crossed!

 

Below is a comparison of various swatches of US Olive Drab (and one light green), sent to @Mike Starmer by a contact in the USA.

 

This is what Mike has provided via the accompanying emails;

I had the attachment from a contact in the USA who is carrying out a very deep analysis of the history of Olive Drab.  The Light Green is the US colour.  

 

Searching for another item I came across an old Tankette article about US colours where the author stated that US tanks for the British in M.E. were painted  'Light Earth' which the British called 'Light Sand',  No source is given but I suspect George Bradford's book of 1971 which has some dodgy conclusions and artwork.

 

So when we read of this or that O/D is correct now we can only wonder which one is being referred to.

 

Edited January 2 by thebig-bear

[Kingsman]

I suspect that quote is based on the telegrams we began this whole debate with and an assumption that it was done.  Which we now firmly believe it was not.  But "Light Earth", which was part of the US Army colour palette, could conceivably be called a Tan bearing in mind the US penchant for using Tan interchangeably with Brown.  And the Canadian Ford (and GM) trucks were being painted Light Stone (not Light Sand) for the Middle East: this we know.  So it is not impossible that Light Stone became conflated to Light Earth and that became conflated with a Tan colour.  I believe the Tan name came from US Ordnance in the document "Ord 9" referenced in one of the other telegrams.  Unfortunately the files did not have that: it was probably a US-US message rather than transatlantic.

 

As for turning this thread into "what is the correct OD for WW2", that is an entirely new thread but not a new subject, and is going well off-topic.  It has come up here before and will undoubtedly come up here again.  The Paralysis Of Analysis........  So I suggest that we keep to the original subject of Coronado Tan.  If you want to go into OD analysis then open a new thread.  The image above would be an excellent starting point.

 

As for Coronado Tan I believe we have shown that to be a complete Red Herring.  An unknown colour and probably a confused and incorrect name anyway probably tracing back to the use of Light Stone in Canada and getting lost in translation.  And we have shown that it was not used on Grants.

 

And we have shown that Grants were painted a US version of Khaki Green 3, not the long-assumed Olive Drab.  While Lees and Stuarts were painted OD as they were standard US production items.  But we still need to nail down what shade of green that was - but I suspect we will never know with any accuracy.  Your favourite prefrence for KG.  But then of course we have the ICI letter quoted in the British OD thread which clearly says that Khaki Green 3 and US Olive Drab [No9] were very similar, according to whatever information was provided to them.

 

So without some great revelation about that colour - bearing in mind that for 83 years there has not been one, other than proving now that it was not OD - I think this thread has served its purpose and run its course.

[Paul Lucas]

@Kingsman, there does seem to me to be one last thing that needs to be done here.

 

As you seem to be able to get within touching distance of the mystery green that you have shown in your photos, can you try matching it to some sort of colour swatch so as to communicate an approximate colour match?

 

It doesn't matter if the match is with a sample of modelling paint such as Humbrol, a household paint such as Valspar from B&Q, FS 595 or anything else, so long as the hue you are looking at can be recorded here for posterity and gives us some idea of what this US equivalent of KG3, if that is what it is, looked like.

 

If nothing else, it might allow an assortment of railroad colours to be eliminated from the enquiry.

[thebig-bear]

9 hours ago, Kingsman said:

I suspect that quote is based on the telegrams we began this whole debate with and an assumption that it was done.  Which we now firmly believe it was not.  But "Light Earth", which was part of the US Army colour palette, could conceivably be called a Tan bearing in mind the US penchant for using Tan interchangeably with Brown.  And the Canadian Ford (and GM) trucks were being painted Light Stone (not Light Sand) for the Middle East: this we know.  So it is not impossible that Light Stone became conflated to Light Earth and that became conflated with a Tan colour.  I believe the Tan name came from US Ordnance in the document "Ord 9" referenced in one of the other telegrams.  Unfortunately the files did not have that: it was probably a US-US message rather than transatlantic.

 

As for turning this thread into "what is the correct OD for WW2", that is an entirely new thread but not a new subject, and is going well off-topic.  It has come up here before and will undoubtedly come up here again.  The Paralysis Of Analysis........  So I suggest that we keep to the original subject of Coronado Tan.  If you want to go into OD analysis then open a new thread.  The image above would be an excellent starting point.

 

As for Coronado Tan I believe we have shown that to be a complete Red Herring.  An unknown colour and probably a confused and incorrect name anyway probably tracing back to the use of Light Stone in Canada and getting lost in translation.  And we have shown that it was not used on Grants.

 

And we have shown that Grants were painted a US version of Khaki Green 3, not the long-assumed Olive Drab.  While Lees and Stuarts were painted OD as they were standard US production items.  But we still need to nail down what shade of green that was - but I suspect we will never know with any accuracy.  Your favourite prefrence for KG.  But then of course we have the ICI letter quoted in the British OD thread which clearly says that Khaki Green 3 and US Olive Drab [No9] were very similar, according to whatever information was provided to them.

 

So without some great revelation about that colour - bearing in mind that for 83 years there has not been one, other than proving now that it was not OD - I think this thread has served its purpose and run its course.

A couple of points;

 

Firstly, I'm sure Mike's mention of the US "Light Earth", etc, was simply to bring it to our attention. I don't believe it was to in any way challenge our thoughts on whether Coronado Tan was ever implemented, but merely to inform us and possibly bring about informed debate - isn't that the whole point of our (the thread's) discussions? - discussions which, may I add, formed the catalyst for all that has been subsequently learned.

 

Further to this point, I hope you won't mind if I challenge your persistent comments on why you believe a thread has a finite lifespan? While I believe there is such a thing as flogging a dead horse, it is surely for any and all individuals (including new-comers) to decide if and when a subject is dead. As I believe there are still a few questions that we may collectively wish to discuss further (with the continuing hope of leading to new avenues of discovery), such as my looking into the subject of Brewster Green, for instance, I don't think it is right to say that this subject is closed. It is, after all, still the continuation of what started out as the possible use of one colour on Grants, leading to what was used in it's place. With the greatest respect (and I really do mean that), you were the one who initially refused to believe that any US armour was ever produced in anything besides OD. We (and most particularly yourself) have since proved, as near as we can, that Khaki Green was used on production of Grants. That discovery, for which you provided the evidence, was brought about by the discussions within this thread and others like it. Personally, I don't care if a thread ends up being 6 pages long or 60 pages - if it is still providing useful, interesting content, what does it matter how long it is? Surely, it will end of it's own accord when there is no further interest from all parties. Yes, this thread may have started out as one looking for the elusive Coronado Tan, but by going off at a tangent, we have made the quite significant discovery of Khaki Green No. 3 being used on Grants, and for that I am glad.

 

Secondly, I don't think it was ever Mike's intention (or mine) to start or re-start the "which shade of OD" debate (although I agree it would be a good place to start a new thread, if that is something people would like me to do - I imagined they would not, but please tell me if anyone feels otherwise), but simply to supply these swatches (with regard to this thread), so that, A; we might compare them with the Khaki Green No.3 and OD swatches he supplied to me previously, B; comparing them to the paint samples found inside the Grant and on Michael's exterior, and C; with regard to any possible substitute colours that may have been used in lieu of OD or Khaki Green No.3.

Edited January 3 by thebig-bear

[Kingsman]

6 hours ago, thebig-bear said:

I hope you won't mind if I challenge your persistent comments on why you believe a thread has a finite lifespan?

Only because we set out to answer a question, and IMO it has been answered apart from some definition of the green that is potentially an attempt at Khaki Green.  That is despite the title being changed and the subject expanded twice.  As threads get long it becomes hard for readers to keep going back and forth across multiple pages to recall what has been said, and for anyone coming to it new it becomes a big read.  Which is why I suggested spinning the nature of OD into a new thread because it is not now relevant to the subject here - as we seem to have concluded.  But that is just an opinion: others are available.  You own the thread so it is yours to do with as you wish.

 

If you are going on the OD journey again in a new thread - long and strewn with potholes - then I have some images of interior parts of the Bovington Chaffee (visible through the front and rear perspex, before you ask).  I believe those are untouched and I'm fairly certain that the outside, although clearly repainted, is that same original colour.  It doesn't match anything British.  Could this be a use of the mythical British-made OD??  But I suspect it is the 1944 version of OD as it is satin and noticeably greener.  Points for a new thread?

 

6 hours ago, thebig-bear said:

I'm sure Mike's mention of the US "Light Earth", etc, was simply to bring it to our attention.

Indeed so.  I was merely using that incorrect naming and comparison to illustrate how a lack of understanding and/or incomplete information through multiple people and organisations and differences in transatlantic language could potentially, conjecturally, have led to the right name for the colour becoming the wrong name for the colour in the course of telling.  "Send three and fourpence, we're going to a dance" again (the original message in WW1 passed by word of mouth was "send reinforcemens, we're going to advance".  Or so the story goes.....).  The US did not actually have a colour called Light Earth and we weren't using one called Light Sand, although US Earth Yellow No6 is in the general ball park of Light Stone.

 

8 hours ago, Paul Lucas said:

the mystery green that you have shown in your photos, can you try matching it to some sort of colour swatch so as to communicate an approximate colour match?

Yes I can try.  The imagery colour is variable for lighting conditions.  But I thought there was concern among the audience that this is not the original colour and was an intermediate repaint because it is so far off what we understand?  Although it does appear to be painted directly over both primer and bare metal where an edge can be seen.  I will see if I can find any other different areas to examine, but I've been all round it several times.  I'm going to take an initial swag and say that it could be either Light Green No1 (now FS34151) or Dark Green No2 (now FS34102) from the US Army Engineers' palette.  In different lighting it could be either.  Or something else.

Edited January 3 by Kingsman
Bad spelling!