The elusive 'Coronado Tan' (plus; was Khaki Green No.3 used on Grants?; Khaki Green and US OD compared, Pullman Green?, etc)

[Kingsman]

Yes that tank stayed in the UK, probably always at Chertsey.  But photos of it in the USA clearly show a matt finish, which seems to rule out one of the Bronze Greens.  And in any case they had been replaced as the standard colours about 2 years earlier.

 

This is T24689, the first from PSC and now at Bovington, at its roll-out at PSC in the US.  Clearly a very matt colour.  It came to the UK along with T24193 and T24195 from Pullman, the first 3 in the UK.

 

Tricks of the light, perhaps, but are these 2 Grants and the M3 in the middle slightly different colours?  The Grants are Pullman-Standard while the M3 is Chrysler.  These are from March-April 42 production, well after the supposed reversion to Khaki Green.

[thebig-bear]

@Kingsman  Thanks for that pic, etc.

 

Yes, that is very matt - but what would something like Middle Bronze Green look like when applied with a matt finish? I've been trying to find an example where someone has done that, but nothing yet. However, I've been looking at some images from this website featuring a coach restoration using MBG. (Apparently, the pre-war Southern Railway green of the Maunsell era is also MBG, so along with it's later use on Land Rovers and BMC engines, there are lots of reference photos for this colour.)

http://bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/cw_news/3363.html

If you look down this page, you will see loads of different shades of green, all of which are MBG, just with different aging, finish, etc. Then, this photo is especially good at showing aged vs new paint.

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Flive.staticflickr.com%2F65535%2F54072466660_8da8d81f3b_b.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=b8731d6e9066be124f5310f006ccd50fddcbe0f1541b38cd19f750144aecfc0c&ipo=images

 

I know, the Bronze Greens had been superseded.... but, we know that they were still in use in some applications. Also, bear in mind we know there had been at least one mix up regarding colour, and it is only in the final paper that Khaki Green is mentioned by name - before that it is simply "British standard colour, of which you have particulars" - we know what they (London) implied, but did they (PSC and Dewar) know? Very early examples may, just may, have been the wrong colour.

 

Edited November 27, 2024 by thebig-bear
Spelling

[thebig-bear]

Or, more likely, maybe those remnants of green paint are not the original finish after all, but from a later re paint, despite being in difficult to reach places? Compare this image with the ones Kingsman took of the inside of the Grant - aren't they exactly the same colour? If not, it must have been a colour that looked identical to it. (I'm doing them as links now, so that I don't unintentionally infringe copyright, etc.)

 

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.northamericaoverland.com%2Fimages%2F67-land-rover-series-iia-109-inch-bronze-green%2F67-land-rover-series-iia-109-inch-bronze-green-17.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=1f1305dad0d67e019beec48715757d902a57b36aaaf359836dca579e5bdf6674&ipo=images

 

 

Edited November 27, 2024 by thebig-bear

[Kingsman]

Yes a later repaint is of course a possibility as we don't know the precise history and monochrome images in isolation and different light are not discriminatory.  But looking at how later repaints have been applied - the "light stone" - I would be very surprised if any repaint had got into the various nooks and crannies such as around the protectoscropes and gun shield.  And any repaint in British possession is almost certain to have used the colours in use at the time, i.e. Khaki Green 3 or SCC2, conceivebly even SCC15.  And that green is none of those by our understanding.

[Kingsman]

Poking my phone camera into more Grant nooks and crannies I found more of that odd green.  It is in literally all the deeper places.  Most tellingly here right up inside the vision slit in one of the side door episcopes.  Unfortunately phone cameras are too smort for their own good and try to adjust the image or compensate for lighting when all you want them to do is capture what you see.  Must go back with SLR.  These 2 photos are with flash.

 

 

 

Also under the rim of the right stowage box lid, apparently directly over primer.  These 2 photos are without flash.

 

 

 

[Kingsman]

Now, let's go back and look at the Michael conundrum.  What do we reckon to the colour in these photos in places up under the sponsons and behind the tracks and bogies that appear to have missed being repainted?  Again, it seems to be neither OD nor Khaki Green as we understand them.  But I am still convinced that the OD No9 of the early war period was much browner than we have been thinking.  It changed in 1944 to a noticeably greener shade: the paint formulation changed and the finish became satin, but AFAIK the pigmentation was not altered.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Microbacchus]

7 hours ago, Kingsman said:

Poking my phone camera into more Grant nooks and crannies I found more of that odd green.  It is in literally all the deeper places.  Most tellingly here right up inside the vision slit in one of the side door episcopes.  Unfortunately phone cameras are too smort for their own good and try to adjust the image or compensate for lighting when all you want them to do is capture what you see.  Must go back with SLR.  These 2 photos are with flash.

 

 

 

Also under the rim of the right stowage box lid, apparently directly over primer.  These 2 photos are without flash.

 

 

 

Thanks for the photos:) This green reminds me a lot to this mystery green on this M3:

 

 

[Mike Starmer]

I should point out that back in the 1960-70 period almost every British and allied vehicle at Bovington was painted with either the current DBG 224 or Light Stone 361.  Even the German armoured car with the 75mm gun was DBG.  Neither of those colours matched the 1930 shades.  I have a 1964 issue of BS. 381 and the DBG in this was different to my colour patch made against the 1930 shade which is quite dark.  Little attempt was made to replicate authentic schemes with any accuracy.  Once I was there and spoke to the chap painting a Churchill tank with a brown colour.  He had obtained the paint from B&Q and knew nothing about the BS.987 copy in their library.

[Kingsman]

@Mike Starmer is indeed, and sadly, correct.  Even some of the German tanks were painted DBG incuding the Tiger B.  I have checked and there are no repaint histories for the museum vehicles.

 

But I'm going to postulate 2 theories here.

 

Theory 1, Grant.  Original colour is the mystery green.  Next colour is almost certainly SCC15, a late war repaint.  Next colour is "Light Stone", in which the vehicle was exhibited for many years.  Final repaint is the disruptive painting over the Light Stone.  No evidence of DBG here.  Was that mystery colour an attempt to match Khaki Green, as the Dewar telegrams suggest was required?

 

Theory 2, Michael.  The brownish green seen in the chips and the areas under the sponsons is the original colour.  There are several layers of the afore-mentioned DBG over that.  We know that the wheels are later replacements but they also appear to display a very brownish shade as the base colour, browner than we see elsewhere here..  I have posted these before but here is one again.  The layering here appears to be the brownish colour first with what could be OD over that, but I suspect is SCC15, and DBG as the top layer.  This wheel design was devised by Chrysler and was used on some late M3s from there, all M3A4s and all M4A4s.  Other Sherman assmblers used it later.  But some late Grants from Pullman Standard also used them.  I imagine they were provided as spares too.  So they could have come from any of several places.  But would you call that brown colour a Tan, noting that in the US it was and is used interchangeably with brown?  Just saying..........😁

  

[JackG]

That odd lively green looks like an over paint.  For the area underneath the box lid the painter was a bit more thorough and opened the lid while doing his work?   The  vision slit could easily been reached with extra dabs of the brush?

[Kingsman]

16 minutes ago, JackG said:

The  vision slit could easily been reached with extra dabs of the brush?

Agreed,  But looking at the extent and sloppiness of the later over paints I don't think so.  Also inside the episcope is bare metal.  For comparison, here is how the area on the right side was sloppily repainted.  With flash again.  The pictures I posted above were left side.

 

 

In behind the door insulation.

Edited December 3, 2024 by Kingsman
Saved too soon

[ColonelKrypton]

13 hours ago, Kingsman said:

Unfortunately phone cameras are too smort for their own good and try to adjust the image or compensate for lighting when all you want them to do is capture what you see.

 

Indeed they are but to be fair these device do a pretty decent job most of the time. Even a good SLR set on AUTO will not necessarily be much better.

 

As a suggestion, why not get yourself one of those inexpensive colour correction cards ( search Amazon for examples ) that you can include in your picture? Typically about 4 x 6 inches and easy enough to carry around and use.  The PRO versions of these cards can be very expensive but the inexpensive ones are pretty decent for this kind of reference picture taking and will help provide a colour reference in your image  

 

cheers, Graham

 

[JackG]

Sloppy paint work over an earlier conscientious (though not thorough) paint coating.   All it takes is two different museum staff  with who knows how many years apart to have done that painting.    Wonder if they kept records of post war repaints on Michael?

 

[Kingsman]

30 minutes ago, JackG said:

Wonder if they kept records of post war repaints on Michael?

Not for anything.  As far as is known Michael came to the museum in DBG and hasn't been touched since.  It is a shame that people want to see things like FV4005 and M47 restored, irrelevances in the genesis of the tank, rather than incredibly important things like Michael.  The influence of World of Tanks, perhaps?  I would argue that Michael is in the top 5 most important surviving tanks in the world and deserves to be restored to original as-delivered condition.  For which the original colour would need to be determined by proper scientific analysis.

 

I am strongly of the opinion from actually looking at it that the brownish colour hidden in less accessible places is the original colour.  It does not match any UK colours if we are thinking that it might be an overpaint.  Michael was a British contract tank, along with 27 others before Lend-Lease took over the remainder of the 400 ordered, and could therefore have been a British-specified colour as with Grants.  Lima would have been given the same colour instructions as the other Grant manufacturers.  Is that a Lima attempt at Khaki Green?  If so it is quite different to PSC's attempt if we believe that is what we are seeing on the Grant - which I believe we are.

 

Isn't this fun?  I'm at National Archives on Friday and Saturday this week with a couple of dozen Dewar files to look through, so we'll see if that flushes anything out.  I don't know that the questions will ever now be definitively answered.  It may just have to rest on balances of probabilities.

[Kingsman]

Right, here we go.   I'm sure you're all itching to know if I found anything of use at the National Archives.   Well, yes I did.  After spending 2 solid days yesterday and today from opening until closing time leafing through the entire Dewar file series, all 22 files, plus 4 other related ones.  Boy are they full of interesting stuff, but don't contain copies of letters that were sent by air or sea mail.  They are almost entirely telegrams.  Where any surviving copies of those other documents might be I have no idea.  I have pages of notes and several hundred document photos to go through, so there will be a later instalment.

 

But the essential headlines are these.

• The commanded colour for Grants was Khaki Green 3
• There is no evidence of any discussion about OD as an alternative, and there is a lot of very detailed discussion of very many deep technical matters.  So I am of the firm belief that it was not done and that Grants left the factory in a US match for KG3.  This is IMO a major revelation.
• M2 and M3 Light Tanks and M3 Mediums (Lees) I believe were all OD as they were US service types.
• The UK paint specs referred-to in the telegrams we have seen were sent very much earlier, and commanded KG3 to be used.
• Those telegrams we have already seen are the only mentions in the entire 22 files, and probably thousands of papers in them, that I could see of Coronado Tan
• There are a couple of other related telegrams
• The span of the Coronado Tan saga is so short that I don't believe it was ever actually implemented.  The UK telegram about changing back once initial Tan supply was used up assumes that its use had started - I believe - without any knowledge of whether it had or had not.  There is no confirmation or indication of any tanks being finished in that colour.  And yet the colour of packing crates is discussed.........
• The instruction about a Middle East and/or India theatre colour was not intended for tanks, only for soft skins.  So it was a mistake to apply it to Grants
• The 2 non-Dewar truck purchase files were all about CMP trucks: nothing about MCPs that might have been a civilian colour
• CMP trucks were commanded to be Khaki Green and fully camouflaged (G4?) or Light Stone.  We know that was done by both Ford and Chevrolet.
• Some US trucks of types generally not in US service were purchased before Lend-Lease but there is no mention of colour
• I think it possible that Dewar was conflating Coronado Tan with Light Stone, and maybe he was given that name wrongly by others who might not have known its correct name.  But that is just supposition.
• We are no closer to knowing what the Tan colour looked like, but if we assume that it was never used then it is irrelevant.

More on all of this with relevant pics when I've got it all ordered and sorted.  But that will be a few days at least.

[thebig-bear]

18 hours ago, Kingsman said:

Right, here we go.   I'm sure you're all itching to know if I found anything of use at the National Archives.   Well, yes I did.  After spending 2 solid days yesterday and today from opening until closing time leafing through the entire Dewar file series, all 22 files, plus 4 other related ones.  Boy are they full of interesting stuff, but don't contain copies of letters that were sent by air or sea mail.  They are almost entirely telegrams.  Where any surviving copies of those other documents might be I have no idea.  I have pages of notes and several hundred document photos to go through, so there will be a later instalment.

 

But the essential headlines are these.

• The commanded colour for Grants was Khaki Green 3
• There is no evidence of any discussion about OD as an alternative, and there is a lot of very detailed discussion of very many deep technical matters.  So I am of the firm belief that it was not done and that Grants left the factory in a US match for KG3.  This is IMO a major revelation.
• M2 and M3 Light Tanks and M3 Mediums (Lees) I believe were all OD as they were US service types.
• The UK paint specs referred-to in the telegrams we have seen were sent very much earlier, and commanded KG3 to be used.
• Those telegrams we have already seen are the only mentions in the entire 22 files, and probably thousands of papers in them, that I could see of Coronado Tan
• There are a couple of other related telegrams
• The span of the Coronado Tan saga is so short that I don't believe it was ever actually implemented.  The UK telegram about changing back once initial Tan supply was used up assumes that its use had started - I believe - without any knowledge of whether it had or had not.  There is no confirmation or indication of any tanks being finished in that colour.  And yet the colour of packing crates is discussed.........
• The instruction about a Middle East and/or India theatre colour was not intended for tanks, only for soft skins.  So it was a mistake to apply it to Grants
• The 2 non-Dewar truck purchase files were all about CMP trucks: nothing about MCPs that might have been a civilian colour
• CMP trucks were commanded to be Khaki Green and fully camouflaged (G4?) or Light Stone.  We know that was done by both Ford and Chevrolet.
• Some US trucks of types generally not in US service were purchased before Lend-Lease but there is no mention of colour
• I think it possible that Dewar was conflating Coronado Tan with Light Stone, and maybe he was given that name wrongly by others who might not have known its correct name.  But that is just supposition.
• We are no closer to knowing what the Tan colour looked like, but if we assume that it was never used then it is irrelevant.

More on all of this with relevant pics when I've got it all ordered and sorted.  But that will be a few days at least.

@Kingsman, may I just comment on what a stellar job you have done looking through all this stuff down at the archives, and say a massive thank you. To say I appreciate your efforts is an understatement. 

Can't comment further just now, and must read again what you have put several more times to fully take it all in, but just wanted to send my thanks. Bravo, sir.👏

Edited December 8, 2024 by thebig-bear

[thebig-bear]

On 08/12/2024 at 00:19, Kingsman said:

 

But the essential headlines are these.

• The commanded colour for Grants was Khaki Green 3
• There is no evidence of any discussion about OD as an alternative, and there is a lot of very detailed discussion of very many deep technical matters.  So I am of the firm belief that it was not done and that Grants left the factory in a US match for KG3.  This is IMO a major revelation.
• M2 and M3 Light Tanks and M3 Mediums (Lees) I believe were all OD as they were US service types.
• The UK paint specs referred-to in the telegrams we have seen were sent very much earlier, and commanded KG3 to be used.
• Those telegrams we have already seen are the only mentions in the entire 22 files, and probably thousands of papers in them, that I could see of Coronado Tan
• There are a couple of other related telegrams
• The span of the Coronado Tan saga is so short that I don't believe it was ever actually implemented.  The UK telegram about changing back once initial Tan supply was used up assumes that its use had started - I believe - without any knowledge of whether it had or had not.  There is no confirmation or indication of any tanks being finished in that colour.  And yet the colour of packing crates is discussed.........
• The instruction about a Middle East and/or India theatre colour was not intended for tanks, only for soft skins.  So it was a mistake to apply it to Grants
• The 2 non-Dewar truck purchase files were all about CMP trucks: nothing about MCPs that might have been a civilian colour
• CMP trucks were commanded to be Khaki Green and fully camouflaged (G4?) or Light Stone.  We know that was done by both Ford and Chevrolet.
• Some US trucks of types generally not in US service were purchased before Lend-Lease but there is no mention of colour
• I think it possible that Dewar was conflating Coronado Tan with Light Stone, and maybe he was given that name wrongly by others who might not have known its correct name.  But that is just supposition.
• We are no closer to knowing what the Tan colour looked like, but if we assume that it was never used then it is irrelevant.

More on all of this with relevant pics when I've got it all ordered and sorted.  But that will be a few days at least.

Ok, having had a little time to re-read through your points, here are some of my thoughts, for what they are worth.

I think that you have just about proved the case for Khaki Green No.3 Grants as is ever now likely to be possible, and that is indeed a major revelation. Whether that be a "correct"/regulation shade of KG no.3, or whatever interpretation the US manufacturers were able to provide, remains to be seen - or rather, discussed - but the use of Khaki Green and not using OD seems absolutely clear to me, based on what you found.

Likewise, I probably agree with your summary and suspect that Coronado Tan was A; likely never actually used/implemented, and B; quite possibly not the correct name anyway, and was actually referring to something else, such as Light Stone, as per your example.

 

Therefore, accepting the above, I would tentatively suggest that the pics of the M3s with Michael at Horse Guards are most likely depicting M3s painted in Khaki Green no.3; the Grant being factory applied and the Lee is a repaint, post any modifications, hence why they match tonally. The difference in tone when compared to Michael may suggest the latter was painted OD, or it may not - probably no way to ever tell, just from the photos, but it would certainly be interesting re paint samples etc taken from the vehicles at Bovington, as you have suggested previously.

So, what do I make of those real-world samples? Now that we know that Grant's were almost certainly supplied in Khaki Green, and comparing Mike's swatches and other examples of that colour to those from the Bovington M3, I hesitantly suggest that the distinctly green paint found inside the vehicle is some sort of later repaint (even allowing for the inaccessible areas, etc), as it is just so far removed from what any other sample of Khaki Green No.3 I have ever seen anywhere looks like. It is just far, far too green in my opinion. However, I do believe examples such as the areas you found inside the air cleaner boxes in the Grant's engine compartment (as shown on page 5 of the SCC2 Shermans thread) are a pretty good match for Khaki Green No.3, especially when compared with Mike's Vallejo paint mix for KG no3. That match is extremely close.

 

[thebig-bear]

On 03/12/2024 at 01:20, Kingsman said:

But I am still convinced that the OD No9 of the early war period was much browner than we have been thinking.  It changed in 1944 to a noticeably greener shade: the paint formulation changed and the finish became satin, but AFAIK the pigmentation was not altered.

Apparently, Mike's swatch of OD no.9 ( as seen in the comparison photo with Khaki Green that I uploaded) is ".. from US archives is an average of 3 1942 US official samples."

[thebig-bear]

With regard to Michael, I have just found photos which prove the road wheels are definitely not the originals. The photos from May 1942 at Horse Guards show wheels with holes through them (I don't know the correct technical name for these - sorry!) whereas the ones seen today are nearly entirely solid. Therefore, as to determining the colour in which Michael was originally delivered, the wheels may now be discounted, as we can now confirm that they must have come from something else and been exchanged later.

 

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftankmuseum.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2021%2F03%2FSherman-Michael-Trailer.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=99adc0acefa710bb387418fd21d364f2096f0c088370c563ec48f30e19c22445&ipo=images

 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205492233

 

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fcdn.landmarkscout.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2022%2F01%2FSherman-M4A1-Micheal-The-oldest-surviving-Sherman-Tank-2.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=186d646ea3fc2a7028e6190cfb975876b6c55fa6a1f98a6c94dca0ca03f45fba&ipo=images

Edited December 10, 2024 by thebig-bear

[Kingsman]

1 hour ago, thebig-bear said:

The difference in tone when compared to Michael may suggest the latter was painted OD, or it may not - probably no way to ever tell, just from the photos

Wait out on that one

1 hour ago, thebig-bear said:

ver, I do believe examples such as the areas you found inside the air cleaner boxes in the Grant's engine compartment (as shown on page 5 of the SCC2 Shermans thread) are a pretty good match for Khaki Green No.3, especially when compared with Mike's Vallejo paint mix for KG no3. That match is extremely close.

I would say those are OD again as they were another common part with the M3, like the driver and gunner seats.  They have also been exposed to considerable heat during running, both from the engine compartment itself and from the pepperpot style exhausts which are only a few inches away under the overhang.  We know the pepperpots heated the top of the engine compartment which is why Grants and Lees were field-modified with low-exit fishtail exhausts and eventually built with M4-style high-exit exhausts and external air cleaners.  This crossed over with T6/M4 development and only a handful of M4s were built with pepperpots.

 

I cannot explain the green but it does appear everywhere to be the next colour over the primer so I am sticking my neck out to say that it is original whether we recognise it as "correct" or not.   There is evidence that painting was hurried, presumably in order to meet a deadline to get it to the UK and not wanting to be beaten by Pullman, who provided the other 2 of the first 3 to come to the UK.  Under the rim of the stowage box is bare metal with visible primer under the green. Inside the 75mm gun mount elevation quadrant is not painted at all: just some white slopped on the lower few inches.  Painting appears to be brushed rather than sprayed.

 

As for Michael, yes the wheel change from open spoke to pressed spoke is pretty obvious.  Less obvious is that the idler on the left has also been changed to the pressed spoke type and the toothed rings on the right sprocket have been changed for a different pattern.  There is therfore no absolute guarantee that the original-looking suspension parts are still original either.  It would be illogical to need to change all the wheels, an idler and a sprocket but not the other idler and sprocket.  And the correct-pattern sprocket on the left shows no sign of hooking.  But the changed wheels exhibit the very brownish colour I have noted and posted before, which is a question in itself.

 

[Kingsman]

On the subject of possible mis-spellings or mis-namings, there are a number of obvious such errors in the files.  Whether in the original message - probably hand-written on a message pad - a transcription error in the coding (most telegrams were encoded) or by the telex operator cannot be determined.  For example, Boys anti-tank rifles are more than once called Boxers.  37mm guns are called 27mm or 47mm.  That sort of thing. 

 

Although there was at one point a clear interest in adopting the French 47mm L/50 SA37/39 in preference to both US 37mm and UK 2pdr.  France was looking to have that weapon made in the US along with S35 and Char B1 tanks.

[JackG]

Not sure if this has any bearing on the period b/w photos- a devils advocate sort of thing I suppose - but has it been ruled out that there is no chance a vehicle had been sent over to the UK in just primer?   Below is a screen shot from a Grant restoration video clip and it is interesting how the red primer behaves in b/lw film.

 

 

Panchromatic

 

Orthochromatic

 

 

[Kingsman]

That would seem to be a highly unlikely proposition.  There had already been criticism of rapid deterioration of paint finishes on trucks from Ford, Chevrolet and especially FWD, who seemed to have used no primer at all and just 1 coat.  T24195 was notified on 24 September 1941 as being prepared for shipping with apertures sealed with special tape and paint which could be removed with kerosene.  This was to be assessed on arrival as satisfactory, or not.  On the same day it was notified that the first 2 tanks from PSCC, T24190 and 24191, had sailed for the UK, as deck cargo.  Bare primer as deck cargo would seem to be a very bad move.  Paint specifications were notified as having been dispatched to the USA on 9 May 41, over 4 months earlier.  Noting that surface mail was taking 3-6 weeks but air mail was also being used.  I imagine that the 5 sets of paint specs requested from ICI were fairly hefty and may have gone in a "sea bag".

 

T24195 is noted as having arrived in very good condition.  One of the 2 Pullmans was noted as having water and cinders(!) in fighting and engine compartments with corrosion found on various engine and other parts.  All future deck cargo shipments are to be protected as per T24195.

Edited December 11, 2024 by Kingsman
Addition

[Kingsman]

OK, I think I'm about ready to take a swag at the Coronado Tan document timeline.

• 18/03/41 - SUPLY 1864 - Standardise paint for M3 Cruiser tanks with that in use in UK.  Specs and chips required. 
• 12/04/41 - SUPLY 2377 - UK paint specifications sent to US.  Paint chips to follow
• 09/05/41 - SUPLY 3095 - iaw SUPLY 1864 paint specs despatched to or via Ottowa.  Paint for Medium M3 tanks should be to our specification
• 09/10/41 – SUPLY 01472 - Not Found.  Is this a typo for 9472?
• 09/10/41 – SUPLY 9472 - All military type vehicles destined for ME on all existing and future demands to be camouflaged in ME colours.  Acknowledge and advise when can be made effective. (Note that this is 2 months prior to the same instruction to Canada, which only lasted a month there but reverted to a split between plain Khaki Green and Light Stone)
• 17/10/41 (sometimes quoted as date 16/10/41) - PLYSU 2527W - Have communicated request for camouflage painting on Middle East vehicles to US QMG and await reply. (no explicit reply found)
• 13/11/41 (sometimes quoted as date 11/11/41) – PLYSU4259W - Coronado Tanou use instituted re SUPLY 01472 09/10/41 (Note mis-spelling).  But this telegram also mentions a reference "Ord 9" and refers back to the request to US Ordnance of 16/17 October.  So I believe this is actually the US QMG response with a colour they could get and which was suitable.  We have noted already, many pages ago, that the "deserty" colours in the QM colour palette were not being used through the 1930s and so were not in stock or production.  Hence the choice of a commercial colour.  So the source of the colour name would seem to be US Ordnance.  Not that this helps us define it.  But if we didn't use it that doesn't matter.
• 01/12/41 – SUPLY 12145 - Agreed that BS colour of which you have particulars (from 02/41) will be suitable for ME, India and Australia
• 04/12/41 (sometimes quoted as date 03/12/41) – PLYSU 5754W - Tanks to be suitably painted for ME and India re SUPLY 12145 (Note that this is still 2 weeks before the same instruction to Canada)
• 06/12/41 – PLYSU 5929W - requesting clarification of return to UK colours re SUPLY 12145
• 13/12/41 – SUPLY 12829 - confirmation that the Coronado Tan instruction was an error re PLYSU 5929W
• 23/12/41 – PLYSU 7226W - order to return to Khaki Green for Grants once Coronado Tan exhausted

Canada was instructed to paint CMP trucks in Khaki Green "fully camouflaged" (in G4?) on 3 October 1940, re-confirmed on 14 December.  On 18 December this was changed to full camouflage for UK or Middle East.  That instruction was cancelled on 14 January 1941 in favour of continuing plain Khaki Green for the UK and Light Stone for the Middle East.  So while we might think that Dewar or others were conflating Coronado Tan with Light Stone, Coronado Tan was promulgated to the US and then rescinded some 2 months before Middle East colours were instructed to Canada.  But US Ordnance as the source makes sense as their response to the request to use a "deserty" colour.

[thebig-bear]

22 hours ago, Kingsman said:

Wait out on that one

 

Sounds most intriguing!