The elusive 'Coronado Tan' (plus; was Khaki Green No.3 used on Grants?; Khaki Green and US OD compared, Pullman Green?, etc)

[thebig-bear]

On 22/11/2024 at 19:08, Kingsman said:

 

Here are the colour comparisons from above, Khaki Green on the left and OD on the right.  In my simple mind I visualised these being the other way around.

 

While I did think Khaki Green was the more brown of the two, I was under the impression it was the lighter colour - clearly, it isn't!

Edit: however, the KG seen here has a semi-gloss finish, which will make a difference.

 

On 22/11/2024 at 19:08, Kingsman said:

Here are the previously-posted large chips to base colour on Sherman Michael, with the usual caveat that it's been under other paint for nearly 83 years.  Much browner than either of the above, but more like KG than OD.

 

That's what I have been thinking, too.

On 22/11/2024 at 19:08, Kingsman said:

Here we have a return roller section that has avoided later painting.  Same thing but photo without (left) and with flash.  The brighter more vibrant green is the lower colour.  The darker green, which I believe to be a later overpaint and before the current "light stone", is quite like the OD swatch.  But the more vibrant green is quite unlike either of the swatches.

Interesting - especially as (if I remember what you said correctly) this was a vehicle which stayed in the UK.

 

Edited November 25, 2024 by thebig-bear

[thebig-bear]

On 21/11/2024 at 13:53, ColonelKrypton said:

 

However, I must ask - what colour was the surface ( table top or ? ) on which these images were taken?  Grey? White? Light Blue? Somewhere in between?   

 

@ColonelKrypton, I'm afraid I don't know the answer to that one. I'll try and remember to ask Mike.

[thebig-bear]

21 hours ago, Kingsman said:

I have several times used that M4A1 as a comparator for OD - which it seems might have been incorrect.

 

The darker of the 2 greens on the Grant is not a bad match for the OD swatch.  But is definitely an overpaint.  Potentially - even probably- the first overpaint.  Which begs the question whether the brighter green was PSC's first attempt at a "khaki green" which was not accepted and was then overpainted with OD.  Of course that paint could have been applied (much?) later in the UK.  But in 1941 one might expect Khaki Green, not OD.

 

I'm finding that brighter green in other deep nooks and crannies such as in the recesses of the side door protectoscopes.  Which again makes me wonder if it might be original.  But the backs of the turret gunner's and driver's seats are much closer to the Khaki Green swatch.

Once again, @Kingsman, thank you for bringing these 'on location' photos of these vehicles to us, and being able to have a good sniff around!

 

That's an interesting theory, and sounds fairly plausible to me. The only point being, why OD for the overpaint, as that should not have been in use at the time. Interesting that while some of the interior is a good match for Khaki Green, the exterior bits you are finding in the nooks and crannies are so much brighter and greener.

 

Complete speculation, I know, but I believe I read something about Australia's version of Khaki Green No.3 being very much greener than the British standard. Might the Canadian version (and thereby that most likely used in US production(?)) also have differed slightly? The Dewar papers say something about 'of which you have particulars', but to which particulars do they refer? We will likely never know, of course.

 

 

[thebig-bear]

On 23/11/2024 at 15:35, JackG said:

I too thought KG3 would be the greenish of the two.   In Mikes pamphlet series on British vehicle camouflage none of the four publications includes a physical olive drab swatch.   The KG3 looks on par with posted comparison here but quite dark - so the top edge looks near what is in his pamphlets.

 

Another comparison ~

 

Thank you, @JackG. That is a very useful comparison.

 

Yes, OD might in reality have been 'greener' when seen outside in real world conditions than how this M4A1 appears here (and I do personally think it was probably a little 'greener' (and perhaps a touch darker?), while still being technically a brown). However, to be fair to you @Kingsman, this shot of the tank was taken indoors under electric light, while the swatch was taken in daylight. Even were the paint on the tank absolutely 100% guaranteed to be accurate, or even genuine, original paint, it's likely it wouldn't match because of that. My model of a Sherman (using Mike's mix) that I'm currently looking at will change in a similar manner if I compare it when as viewed under my lamp to when standing at the window.

 

p.s. I never noticed before that this M4A1 has mis-matched road wheels.

Edited November 25, 2024 by thebig-bear

[thebig-bear]

While on the subject of US OD no.9, has anyone ever seen this little beauty?

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205383822

 

Due entirely to the location where the photo was taken, it's currently hidden away under United States Army Air Forces in Britain, 1942-1945 (?!)

No date, sadly. The only info given is; 'Into Mt Farm for new engine. Boys looking over M1 [M4] tank.'

Note the ring around the Allied star on the transmission housing - is that likely to be the gas detector paint, as seen on the bonnet of jeeps headed for NWE, for example? If so, I haven't seen that so clearly depicted on a US AFV before.

Edited November 25, 2024 by thebig-bear

[JackG]

I suppose too when comparing paint swatches consideration must be given to their age, so that composite image with Mike swatches laid over top I had posted may not be useful.  Don't know the source of the paint used on that Sherman in the building setting - whether it is based on original specifications or matched to aged paint.

[Kingsman]

That IWM photo, like many of the era, is clearly very over-saturated with blue.  You would need to dial that back a lot to have a truer idea of the colour.

[Kingsman]

I believe the M4A1 76 paint was supposed to be an OD No9 match.  It is only about 3 yrs old. 

 

Yes it has mixed wheels but this was common practice. You had to use what you had. Those types both have the later enlarged hubs introduced in 1944.  Something the pressed-spoke Chrysler pattern never received AFAIK.  Strange perhaps that the spoked design, now with closed spokes, continued to the end of production despite being the most laborious to make: all hand welded.

[thebig-bear]

1 hour ago, Kingsman said:

That IWM photo, like many of the era, is clearly very over-saturated with blue.  You would need to dial that back a lot to have a truer idea of the colour.

Agreed - but that doesn't take away from it still being a great, well-defined shot of the subject - you couldn't ask for a clearer photo! - and it's one that I don't believe has done the rounds before. Plus, there are a few pointers that might help someone be able to tweak it a bit ( @JackG, would you be willing to have a crack at it, please?), such as the colour of the OD tunic worn by the man standing in the hull gunner's hatch, for example.

 

I thought it was also good at illustrating different examples of wear and tear, as well as shading. For example, note the darker sprocket wheel - is that freshly painted? Also, parts where hands and feet tend to touch more frequently, and where petrol might have spilled.

 

47 minutes ago, Kingsman said:

I believe the M4A1 76 paint was supposed to be an OD No9 match.  It is only about 3 yrs old. 

It would be good to know what they used as the source.

 

47 minutes ago, Kingsman said:

  Strange perhaps that the spoked design, now with closed spokes, continued to the end of production despite being the most laborious to make: all hand welded.

Interesting stuff. Yes, that does seem odd, but then I'm getting quite used to that when it comes to Second World War vehicles!!

Edited November 25, 2024 by thebig-bear

[evilbobthebob]

That IWM photo took me down a bit of a rabbit hole looking at that photographer's all-colour photos. There is an even clearer shot of possibly the same tank:

 

AIRCRAFT OF THE 7TH PHOTOGRAPHIC GROUP, 8TH UNITED STATES ARMY AIR FORCE BASED AT MOUNT FARM, OXFORDSHIRE 1943-1945.. Image: IWM (COL 495) IWM Non Commercial License

[thebig-bear]

6 minutes ago, evilbobthebob said:

That IWM photo took me down a bit of a rabbit hole looking at that photographer's all-colour photos. There is an even clearer shot of possibly the same tank:

 

AIRCRAFT OF THE 7TH PHOTOGRAPHIC GROUP, 8TH UNITED STATES ARMY AIR FORCE BASED AT MOUNT FARM, OXFORDSHIRE 1943-1945.. Image: IWM (COL 495) IWM Non Commercial License

Fantastic! Thank you for that. I had been thinking about doing something similar, but you beat me to it!

I would say it could possibly be the same vehicle - it's certainly the same location, namely Mount Farm airbase.

Edited November 25, 2024 by thebig-bear

[evilbobthebob]

And in the continuing saga of US 3066310:

 

AIRCRAFT OF THE 7TH PHOTOGRAPHIC GROUP, 8TH UNITED STATES ARMY AIR FORCE BASED AT MOUNT FARM, OXFORDSHIRE 1943-1945.. Image: IWM (COL 494) IWM Non Commercial License

 

Interesting things to me are the exhaust baffle and the extra star on the left rear.

Edited November 25, 2024 by evilbobthebob

[thebig-bear]

5 minutes ago, evilbobthebob said:

And in the continuing saga of US 3066310:

 

AIRCRAFT OF THE 7TH PHOTOGRAPHIC GROUP, 8TH UNITED STATES ARMY AIR FORCE BASED AT MOUNT FARM, OXFORDSHIRE 1943-1945.. Image: IWM (COL 494) IWM Non Commercial License

Excellent! With the serial no., it's clearly the same vehicle in all three.

 

Edit: Looking at other pics taken at the same location, a possible date is 22nd April, 1944.

Edited November 25, 2024 by thebig-bear

[thebig-bear]

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205226696

 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205226695

Some more OD vehicles, in varying shades. Taken at Mount Farm, on 22/4/44.

Edited November 25, 2024 by thebig-bear

[evilbobthebob]

The major points of interest regarding paint colour on the tank are around the turret where there are clear examples of patch painting under the star and behind the gun mantlet. The gun mantlet light spot is also an odd shape, seeming to follow the contours of the gun mounting around the main pintle. The turret patch painting seems to have a darker edge with a much lighter centre compared to the rest of the turret.

 

Also I think this thread is proof that all colour discussions eventually converge on "but what is OD No9 anyway?". See also relevant threads here

 

 

Edited November 25, 2024 by evilbobthebob

[thebig-bear]

11 minutes ago, evilbobthebob said:

The major points of interest regarding paint colour on the tank are around the turret where there are clear examples of patch painting under the star and behind the gun mantlet. The gun mantlet light spot is also an odd shape, seeming to follow the contours of the gun mounting around the main pintle. The turret patch painting seems to have a darker edge with a much lighter centre compared to the rest of the turret.

I don't think that's patch painting, but rather the remains of where sealant was used as part of the water-proofing applied before shipping across the Atlantic. This secured all likely points of entry against water ingress, such as around the mantlet, hatches, where the bottom of the turret met the hull, etc. I've seen similar on some other examples.

Edited November 25, 2024 by thebig-bear

[Kingsman]

36 minutes ago, thebig-bear said:

It would be good to know what they used as the source.

Whichever colour matching company they bought the paint from. There are many offering matched period colours, with varying degrees of accuracy.  It was previously a very dark green from its days as a gate guard somewhere.

[Kingsman]

25 minutes ago, evilbobthebob said:

Interesting things to me are the exhaust baffle

It is the bottom part of a wading trunk in preparation for D Day. So the discolouration noted earlier is more likely to be wading sealant for D Day than shipping sealant from the US.

[thebig-bear]

2 hours ago, Kingsman said:

It is the bottom part of a wading trunk in preparation for D Day. So the discolouration noted earlier is more likely to be wading sealant for D Day than shipping sealant from the US.

 

I believe the location and style of the sealing process was applied somewhat differently in those two instances, at least from what I have seen - that direct from the US seemingly being somewhat more thorough.

 

Edit: for example, have a look at this section of film from the movie "Western Approaches" (1944) - look from approx 6 mins 50 secs, and most particularly at 7:02. The areas with the sealant (and whatever material it was that was used with it) match almost exactly with those seen above, even down to the more blurred edge around the top edge of the turret.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Bc64p7nX_s

 

p.s. that appears, to me, as too pale and insipid for normal US OD no.9, unless of course, it is just the usual colour bias on the film, as ever. However, the derrick appears to be the same colour -  would that be likely to have been OD no.9?

Edited November 25, 2024 by thebig-bear

[thebig-bear]

On 21/11/2024 at 13:53, ColonelKrypton said:

However, I must ask - what colour was the surface ( table top or ? ) on which these images were taken?  Grey? White? Light Blue? Somewhere in between?   

 

 

@ColonelKrypton, I've had an answer back from Mike, and he says it was a near neutral grey, the best he could find at short notice. Hope that helps.

[Mike Starmer]

I sent both comparison images so that members might see the difference when the swatches were photographed within minutes of each other at different distances.  I had to crop both to obtain decent sizes to send. It would be possible to photograph Khaki Green and Olive Drab alongside SCC2 and another with SCC 15 but not all on the same image since the standards are on different pages.  For these I need a bright cloudy day and the chap who did the first batch.   I came across a single mention of Mr. Dewar when sorting through large file of material about 1940 period RAF colours and Canada.  He had a hand in getting colour samples to Canada but no mention of his capacity.  I suspect the British Purchasing Commission.

[Kingsman]

And now for what I believe might be the clincher, circling back to the original question of the colour of Grants.

 

Underneath oily greasy muck and filth inside the sprocket is this.  Top photo is with flash, lower one under bright white torchlight.  Going by the prepared colour swatches, to my eye this is much closer to Khaki Green than OD - but is not the same as either: greener again.  I am certain these are the original sprocket rings and that this area is unlikely to have been repainted.  They are the correct pattern, although these were used on Shermans, and are very hooked - as can be seen - implying a deal of mileage.

 

 

 

 

This is turret gunner's seat back.  Again, top with flash and bottom with torch.  Looks a bit like KG with flash and more like OD under torchlight.  But I imagine these were common parts with M3s and are therefore very likely to be OD

 

 

More examples of the brighter green in nooks and crannies.  Which I am very much leaning towards being the original colour applied by PSC and their attempt at Khaki Green.

 

 

 

[evilbobthebob]

An interesting colour. Definitely not either of the official KG3 or OD9. The chair back is definitely closest to OD9 to my eyes. Thanks for the excellent photos!

[thebig-bear]

11 hours ago, Kingsman said:

And now for what I believe might be the clincher, circling back to the original question of the colour of Grants.

 

Underneath oily greasy muck and filth inside the sprocket is this.  Top photo is with flash, lower one under bright white torchlight.  Going by the prepared colour swatches, to my eye this is much closer to Khaki Green than OD - but is not the same as either: greener again.  I am certain these are the original sprocket rings and that this area is unlikely to have been repainted.  They are the correct pattern, although these were used on Shermans, and are very hooked - as can be seen - implying a deal of mileage.

 

 

 

 

This is turret gunner's seat back.  Again, top with flash and bottom with torch.  Looks a bit like KG with flash and more like OD under torchlight.  But I imagine these were common parts with M3s and are therefore very likely to be OD

 

 

More examples of the brighter green in nooks and crannies.  Which I am very much leaning towards being the original colour applied by PSC and their attempt at Khaki Green.

 

 

 

Once again, @Kingsman, thank you for supplying these great photos.

 

I have to agree that, whatever that green paint is, it surely has to be the most likely candidate for being the original finish, doesn't it? However, as to what it is, I don't know! The interior bits, in particular, are pretty green, and much more of a true green at that. To me, it appears to be something different from anything we have seen so far. As you say, it really does make you wonder if it was their attempt to comply with the order by trying to reproduce a colour they didn't have, or whether it was just something else altogether? It's certainly very interesting.

 

As for the seat, I think you could be right. I suspect that would have been a standard M3 part (there was no reason for it not to have been a common part, was there, or even a later replacement?) and therefore it could well be OD. It looks quite a good match for Mike's swatch of the latter.

 

Just to clarify, I'm right in saying that this is the vehicle that stayed in the UK, and definitely never went to either the MTO or CBI theatres?

 

Edit: having had a sudden brain wave, you don't think it could be one of the Bronze Greens, do you? In some places, a few of these bits in the nooks and crannies look a very good, near-perfect match for Middle Bronze Green in particular, minus a gloss finish. Might they have used that if this was always intended as a UK-based test vehicle? See what you think - I know on the face of it, that it seems highly unlikely, but what are the chances of such a close match being just a coincidence?

 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2024 by thebig-bear

[thebig-bear]

It's even not a bad match for that found behind the sprocket, allowing for dirt, oil, age, etc.

 

https://nbrworks.com/you-shouldve-seen-the-green-on-my-face/

 

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=BMC+engine+green&t=ffab&iar=images&iax=images&ia=images

Edited November 27, 2024 by thebig-bear