IWM Duxford

[Britman]

I received the latest Aeroplane magazine today. I have to say that from the report inside regarding changes to the displays suggest to me that lunatics are now in control of our priceless and irreplaceable gems. The Sunderland,York, Comet and Dove are to be rolled outside into the elements and certain serious deterioration. The reason apparently is to create space for a cold war collection ( Sunderland and York at the forefront in Berlin of course) including items from the doomed to close Land warfare museum at the other end of the airfield. Words fail me.

 

Keith 

[Julien]

Just seen that Duxford are looking to move the Sunderland and potentially other airframes outside so they can have a cold war display inside. Im all for remembering the Cold War but not at the expense to exhibits like the Sunderland.

 

Petition here to stop it, though I suspect it wont make a difference.

 

https://www.change.org/p/save-the-sunderland-and-other-airframes?recruiter=248569711&recruited_by_id=7b0fd550-c76f-11e4-a2a4-31ee55709a6f&utm_source=share_petition&utm_campaign=share_for_starters_page&utm_medium=copylink

[Smudge]

Signed. 

 

Thanks for bringing it to attention.

[hairystick]

Also signed.

 

The protection of artefacts such as this, is vital.

[stevehnz]

Signed & shared.

Steve.

[spruecutter96]

Signed. 

 

This is a DREADFUL idea. They might as well drag the Sunderland out and just scrap it on the spot - outside storage will result in the same situation. The British Winter will soon finish it off. 

 

It's a disgraceful way to destroy a genuine, rare piece of history - utter, utter madness. 

 

What Dunder-Head  came up with this idea?

 

Also, why a Cold War exhibition? Are they not aware of the excellent, purpose-built Cold War hangar at Cosford?  There is no way Duxford can put on anything to rival the Midlands display. 

 

Chris. 

[Paul821]

You could argue that the cold war is outside the IWM remit

 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/about

 

As it was a "war" of ideas rather than an armed conflict. If they want a new themed display then the Falklands would be more appropriate. As to the Sunderland, these played a major part in the Berlin Airlift so, along with the York, are key elements of the cold war story.

 

I have a feeling that the Sunderland is a Chinese whisper, nothing has been confirmed by the IWM and it might find a new home attack Duxford when the land warfare areais redeveloped. To me the loss of that collection is a bigger issue than the Sunderland.

[Fukuryu]

Signed.

[Julien]

9 hours ago, spruecutter96 said:

 

 

What Dunder-Head  came up with this idea?

 

Probably a Qualified museum manager with a degree in it but no real knowledge of what they are doing

[Sabrejet]

Large, rare aircraft should never be displayed outside if there is indoor space for them. With the warbird community gradually pillaging the world of historic airframes I trust museums to be the real custodians of our heritage. But this is a worrying development, which I hope is temporary.

[Jonny]

(copied from the post I inadvertently entered to duplicate this thead!)

 

I have finally got round to reading the October issue (618) of 'Aeroplane' magazine.

 

I was saddened to read that IWM Duxford's latest plans seem to be to move 3 '4 engined' aeroplanes out of the Airspace hangar - the Sunderland (which belongs to the IWM), and the Comet and York (which belong to the Duxford Aviation Society, DAS) - the Sunderland  to an outside location, namely between Hangars 3 an4, the Comet to join the other DAS airliners, and the York to somewhere between 'two of the other Hangars'..  The Tiger Moth currently suspended in Airspace is to be 'disposed of'.  The Sunderland's starboard float and wingtip are to swapped with Kermit Weeks's damaged Sunderland.  All aeroplanes currently suspended from the Airspace roof will be relocated and Airspace will become a 'Cold War' exhibition.

 

I can't help thinking of the awful state of the Victor before it was brought in from the cold and after years of work left in the end of Airspace - there were rumours that it would eventually be relocated next to the Vulcan!.    How long before the Comet, York and Sunderland suffer from the elements I wonder?

[PatG]

Signed & shared.

 

Pat.

[Britman]

On 9/30/2024 at 10:27 PM, Jonny said:

(copied from the post I inadvertently entered to duplicate this thead!)

 

I have finally got round to reading the October issue (618) of 'Aeroplane' magazine.

 

I was saddened to read that IWM Duxford's latest plans seem to be to move 3 '4 engined' aeroplanes out of the Airspace hangar - the Sunderland (which belongs to the IWM), and the Comet and York (which belong to the Duxford Aviation Society, DAS) - the Sunderland  to an outside location, namely between Hangars 3 an4, the Comet to join the other DAS airliners, and the York to somewhere between 'two of the other Hangars'..  The Tiger Moth currently suspended in Airspace is to be 'disposed of'.  The Sunderland's starboard float and wingtip are to swapped with Kermit Weeks's damaged Sunderland.  All aeroplanes currently suspended from the Airspace roof will be relocated and Airspace will become a 'Cold War' exhibition.

 

I can't help thinking of the awful state of the Victor before it was brought in from the cold and after years of work left in the end of Airspace - there were rumours that it would eventually be relocated next to the Vulcan!.    How long before the Comet, York and Sunderland suffer from the elements I wonder?

The display in the super hanger at present is one of the best in the country and does not require or need such a violation as apparently proposed. I was at the RAF Museum at Hendon yesterday and although a good "experience" lacked direction as to photographic requirements and a lot of wasted space that could either allow better display of the aircraft or get some of the exhibits off the ceiling. Of our group of four, not one of us noticed the Mew Gull hanging above the main hall entrance until I casually looked up after we had passed under it for the second time!

 

Keith 

[Flt Sgt FishCat]

I've seen so many pictures of rare historical aircraft like these totally ruined by outdoor storage within weeks. I had no idea they were doing this but I agree with everyone else here - they should either be stored properly at Duxford or moved to another facility where they can be treated correctly.

[Julien]

From the British Airliner Collection facebook page

 

Quote

AIRLINER MOVES

Earlier this week #IWM publicly announced their plans for the upcoming work to change the layout of the #Airspace hangar at #Duxford into a Cold War and contemporary conflict exhibit. Full details are on their website IWM.org.uk. The project will run from 24th February until 6 June with Airspace remaining open for most of that time so members of the public can view the work in progress. However, the statement gave no indication as to which aircraft would be moving out of the hangar.

 

I am now in a position to be able to share with you what is planned. We cannot comment on the IWM aircraft moves, but the project will see our #Concorde and #Hermes remain in the hangar and open to visitors during the works. The aircraft will only be closed on the days Airspace is closed for H&S reasons, check our regular weekend posts for when this will be. Our #Dove, #Comet and #York will all leave the hangar for display outside. We have been in discussion with IWM over the past 5 years regarding these moves. Whilst understanding and co-operating with this project, #DAS has made it clear that it does not agree with these three aircraft going outside as it will make the continuing preservation of these historically iconic aircraft challenging. DAS is absolutely committed to conserving the British Airliner Collection and has a robust care and conservation plan. The airliners outside require a significant amount of volunteer labour and money to keep them in the condition they are . An additional three aircraft is a challenge but one DAS is determined to meet .

 

The York is the only original RAF one in existence and actually operated in the Berlin Airlift at the start of the Cold War, flying the 100,000th ton of UK supplies into the city. DAS has on several occasions offered to repaint her back into the original RAF Cold War colour scheme.

The Comet started the international jet age as the actual aircraft that operated the first scheduled passenger jet service across the Atlantic non-stop.

As an Accredited Museum Duxford Aviation Society is mindful of the requirement to preserve the aircraft in its care and will continue to use all possible means available to safeguard these historic aircraft.

Sad to see aircraft going outside, but for a cold war exhibition surely the York qualifies for this? 

[spitfire]

Absolute madness putting large airframes outside in the British weather, on our last visit to Duxford we were so impressed with the Land Warfare hall it's a shame its closing.

 

Cheers

 

Dennis

[Britman]

Utter madness close on vandalism.

 

Keith 

[IanC]

It may not be as bad as you think. Sadly though, difficult decisions have to be made, and all audiences have to be considered, not just those with an attachment to certain airframes or exhibits. Staying relevant in a changing world is vital. That's how national museums, fighting for an ever decreasing share of the financial pot, can hope to survive in this day and age.

 

[Paul821]

I have followed this story since it first broke and in my mind the only issue is that the IWM's communications about this have been extremely poor, Words such as

 

On 9/21/2024 at 9:32 AM, spruecutter96 said:

What Dunder-Head  came up with this idea?

 

On 9/21/2024 at 7:09 PM, Julien said:

Probably a Qualified museum manager with a degree in it but no real knowledge of what they are doing

and 

11 minutes ago, Britman said:

Utter madness close on vandalism.

 

are rather subjective.

 

The original purpose or Airspace building was to showcase UK and Commonwealth aviation "Quite simply, The Air Space will tell the story of British aviation in what we are sure will be the most exciting and inspiring display of British and Commonwealth aircraft in the world. It will be a beacon project, a national resource where visitors will be able to celebrate the development of aviation. We expect that our current 400,000 visitors every year will increase to at least 450,000 with the addition of this facility." (From the IWM website of October 2001).

 

At that point we were only 56 years from the end of WW2 and I visited Duxford a number of times with veterans from that conflict. Now, nearly 25 years on, the IWM needs to find the space to tell the stories of other, more recent conflicts: Korea, Falklands, Gulf war 1 & 2, Afghanistan and Northern Ireland. There is no other space within the IWM estate that can accommodate those stories. Too many people are fixating on the "cold war" element of the changes but that is a minor part. These stories need to be told to meet the aims of the IWM "the advancement of the education of the public in the nature, perception, history and impact of modern war and people's experience of war; and - the arts, culture, and heritage related to war and war-time experience." (Charity Commission Web site). 

 

As to the care for exhibits, as a registered museum the IWM has a duty of care regarding the exhibits, The land warfare museum is not allowing them to care for the items held there. The cost of repairing the building is too high so if the museum can bring in monies, an improve its facilities, by partnership with external bodies, then it need to take that opportunity. Long term it cannot just leave times to rot. Once issue is the DAS collection which is a separate debate.

 

As someone who has attended Duxford since the early 1970's I feel we ned to take the long term view and reserve judgement on these changes for at least five years. If by then the Sunderland is still outside and deteriorating then yes the enthusiast community of today will prove to have been right. However if not and the Duxford site has improved facilities and greater visitor numbers then the opposite situation will stand.

 

Around 20 years ago I started preparing for retirement and was looking for a post retirement role. I thus became a "a Qualified museum manager with a degree". My retirement was advanced when I had the opportunity to take redundancy. As part of the package I was allowed time off to look at "alternative employment" and I did this through some hands on museum training in East Anglia during which I met various professionals, those I met from Duxford could not be said to " [have] no real knowledge of what they are doing". Over the last 15 I have continued to work in the museum sector and keep up to date with the museum world.

 

Lastly I would say the IWM is guilty of one thing, and that is the poor communication about the overall Duxford project. I am a IWM member, visit Duxford regularly and also read various museum Journals and websites, very little have been said by the IWM about this project. This has allowed rumours to spread. It may be that for 90%+ of visitors to Duxford the changes do not matter, but for the enthusiast community, who are very vocal on the matter, it is of great interest, So let's have more openness about the project.

[Paul821]

48 minutes ago, IanC said:

It may not be as bad as you think. Sadly though, difficult decisions have to be made, and all audiences have to be considered, not just those with an attachment to certain airframes or exhibits. Staying relevant in a changing world is vital. That's how national museums, fighting for an ever decreasing share of the financial pot, can hope to survive in this day and age.

 

 

 

 

@IanC your post arrived while I was typing mine and I could not agree more.

[Gerald the Gorilla]

The only aircraft that are going outside are the 146 and Comet. There is going to be a massive reorganisation of the museum to try and make it all make sense to the general public. While aircraft fans don't generally mind a bit of a haphazard layout, it does confuse people who know very little and who are bringing their children for a day out. It is expensive to come to Duxford and most people don't even know it's there. When they come they love to see real aircraft flying, which is why the airshows do so well, but surprisingly some people only come for the museum! The land warfare museum will be empty by the summer, with almost all the exhibits distributed about the site, with some of the exhibits going into airspace near the airborne assault museum. It's a big project and it would be great to keep the airliners at Duxford because I think they add a lot to the experience. 

[IanC]

12 hours ago, Paul821 said:

@IanC your post arrived while I was typing mine and I could not agree more.

 

Thanks Paul. I too have some experience in the job, having recently retired after many years at IWM London. 

 

[Britman]

15 hours ago, IanC said:

It may not be as bad as you think. Sadly though, difficult decisions have to be made, and all audiences have to be considered, not just those with an attachment to certain airframes or exhibits. Staying relevant in a changing world is vital. That's how national museums, fighting for an ever decreasing share of the financial pot, can hope to survive in this day and age.

 

So we can return the Elgin marbles because they have been there for years and someone has to justify their salary and position? Just a flippant thought, however when an exhibition hall is full of gems one doesn't remove them to the elements just to make room for some new goodies. I have ventured this idea before and I would have more respect for IWM if between them DAS and the local council and government could come up with a purpose built hall for the priceless aircraft looked after by DAS. After all the collection is unlikely to grow substantially in the future as the UK haven't produced a commercial airliner for years, this is it!  And lastly, spare a thought for the magnificent team trying to preserve the last Beverley, when it's gone it's gone and future generations will never be able to stand beneath it or a VC10 and think wow!

 

Keith 

[Paul821]

1 hour ago, Britman said:

So we can return the Elgin marbles because they have been there for years and someone has to justify their salary and position? Just a flippant thought, however when an exhibition hall is full of gems one doesn't remove them to the elements just to make room for some new goodies. I have ventured this idea before and I would have more respect for IWM if between them DAS and the local council and government could come up with a purpose built hall for the priceless aircraft looked after by DAS. After all the collection is unlikely to grow substantially in the future as the UK haven't produced a commercial airliner for years, this is it!  And lastly, spare a thought for the magnificent team trying to preserve the last Beverley, when it's gone it's gone and future generations will never be able to stand beneath it or a VC10 and think wow!

 

Keith 

You obviously read @IanC 's post as you quoted it, so just three questions:

 

Do you have any idea how much such a hall would cost?: (as a clue the American Air Museum cost £11m in 1997)

What would be the source of that money, without hitting other heritage spending?

Where would you build it without impacting on Duxford role as an active airfield and site for air displays?

[Britman]

5 hours ago, Paul821 said:

You obviously read @IanC 's post as you quoted it, so just three questions:

 

Do you have any idea how much such a hall would cost?: (as a clue the American Air Museum cost £11m in 1997)

What would be the source of that money, without hitting other heritage spending?

Where would you build it without impacting on Duxford role as an active airfield and site for air displays?

I have no illusions as to the cost . What I am desperately trying to point out is that a situation putting irreplaceable aviation heritage in danger of a slow death by exposure to the elements is a real possibility. Whilst talking of the value of Duxford as a centre of aviation preservation and display how did Duxford ever get it come about that serious consideration was / is for Marshalls to move in? As for the wonderful American museum I would suggest it wasn't the cheapest option. I mean no disrespect to any opinions in this thread as this is definitely an important subject. 

 

Keith