RAAF Mustang IIIs with one bomb and one drop tank.

[Karearea]

I’m currently wrapping up a 3 Sqn. RAAF Mustang III. I would like to present it as it would have been set up for my Great Uncle’s final mission of WWII. From the ORB (I.H. Roediger is my uncle):

 

 

note that down the bottom it states that of 11 aircraft to return, 11 x 500lb bombs were dropped and 11 x 62 gal tanks were jettisoned. Presumably this means all aircraft had one of each- so which was likely on what side of the aircraft?

 

I’ve seen photos of a P-51B or C set up this way but just can’t find it or recall where I’ve seen it- it could well have been 3 Sqn. at Fano as I do recall it looking very rough. I also don’t recall the layout.

 

Thanks for any help!

[Kari Lumppio]

Hi!

 

If nothing else comes up, some pure speculation.

 

It is easier for pilot to exert stick force to forehand direction i.e. left. Assuming steering with right hand.

Drop tank side will get lighter during fligjht, bomb not.

Based on this speculation I would hang bomb under right wing.

Photo would be best evidence.

 

Cheets,

Kari

Edited September 12 by Kari Lumppio

[Karearea]

25 minutes ago, Kari Lumppio said:

Hi!

 

If nothing else comes up, some pure speculation.

 

It is easier for pilot to exert stick force to forehand direction i.e. left. Assuming steering with right hand.

Drop tank side will get lighter during fligjht, bomb not.

Based on this speculation I would hang bomb under right wing.

Photo would be best evidence.

 

Cheets,

Kari

Thanks very much- that makes a lot of sense. I’ll keep trying to hunt down a photo!

 

[Jure Miljevic]

Hello

Similarly, Hurricanes from 6 Sqn. BAF carried drop tank and R/P. Note the aircraft in the background with four R/Ps under starbord and drop tank under port wing:

Photo, found on World war photos webpage, was taken on Prkos near Zadar. Date is not given, but it must have been March 1945 or later. ORBs of 2. lovska eskadrilja NOVJ (351(Y) Sqn.) also indicate this practice. Unfortunately, I have not seen a photo of Yugoslav squadron Hurricane in such configuration yet. Cheers

Jure

 

P. S.: This was found in Pilot's notes for Hurricane II, but something similar probably applies for Mustang, too:

 

If fitted with R.P. and a drop tank or R.P. and a bomb, the aircraft should be trimmed carefully to relieve stick load. The recommended aileron tab setting is neutral at full load. Then with a drop tank fitted under the port wing, changes in load will cause the following alternations in trim:
Tank empty: Slightly right wing low
Tank empty and R.P. fired: Trim satisfactory
Tank jettisoned and R.P. fired: Slightly right wing low
Tank jettisoned, R.P. not fired: Right wing low

 

 

Edited September 12 by Jure Miljevic
P. S. added

[Duggy]

 

Hawker Hurricane Mark IV of No. 6 Squadron RAF being serviced at Foggia, Italy, prior to a sortie over the Adriatic. Note the asymmetric wing loading on the aircraft, consisting of a 44-gallon long-range fuel tank under the port wing, and four 3-inch rocket projectiles under the starboard

[FinnAndersen]

6 hours ago, Karearea said:

I’m currently wrapping up a 3 Sqn. RAAF Mustang III. I would like to present it as it would have been set up for my Great Uncle’s final mission of WWII. From the ORB (I.H. Roediger is my uncle):

 

note that down the bottom it states that of 11 aircraft to return, 11 x 500lb bombs were dropped and 11 x 62 gal tanks were jettisoned. Presumably this means all aircraft had one of each- so which was likely on what side of the aircraft?

 

I’ve seen photos of a P-51B or C set up this way but just can’t find it or recall where I’ve seen it- it could well have been 3 Sqn. at Fano as I do recall it looking very rough. I also don’t recall the layout.

 

Thanks for any help!

Do you know anything else about KH615, e.g. codes, special marking, anything interesting?

 

/Finn

[Karearea]

3 hours ago, Jure Miljevic said:

P. S.: This was found in Pilot's notes for Hurricane II, but something similar probably applies for Mustang, too:

 

22 minutes ago, Duggy said:

Note the asymmetric wing loading on the aircraft, consisting of a 44-gallon long-range fuel tank under the port wing, and four 3-inch rocket projectiles under the starboard

Thanks very much to both of you- it’s clear from the above that the standard operating procedure was drop tank port, ordnance starboard so I’ll work to that assumption.

 

24 minutes ago, FinnAndersen said:

Do you know anything else about KH615, e.g. codes, special marking, anything interesting?

 

/Finn

Not a great deal- I think in December ‘44 the 3 Sqn Mustangs were rotating around pilots quite a lot so I didn’t see any evidence of personal markings- not to say that none were applied.

 

I do know that the code was CV-B, via this link. As the C/N and USAAF serials were one ahead of KH616, I’ve been basing the general appearance off the plethora of KH616 photos I’ve found, as well as the excellent Red Roo guide from their detail-added Arma P-51C.

 

KH615 was tragically lost in action in January ‘45.

[SteveBrooking]

There is a photo at the Imperial War Museum CNA 4901 in which I believe the third aircraft is CVB/KH615. There is a photo of a 112Sqn Mustang III which has the mixed load and the tank is under starboard wing.

Steve

Edit apologies I don't seem to be able to post a url.

[Karearea]

16 minutes ago, SteveBrooking said:

There is a photo at the Imperial War Museum CNA 4901 in which I believe the third aircraft is CVB/KH615. There is a photo of a 112Sqn Mustang III which has the mixed load and the tank is under starboard wing.

Steve

Edit apologies I don't seem to be able to post a url.

I think you’re right!

 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205212551

 

 

I can’t fully convey how happy this has made me- I’ve never actually seen a photo of KH615 until now. Thank you!

Edited September 12 by Karearea

[Karearea]

25 minutes ago, SteveBrooking said:

mixed load and the tank is under starboard wing.

Interestingly, in photo CNA 4901 there’s a bomb visible under each port wing. Sure, there might be another under the starboard wing.

 

However, across the tarmac facing the camera, right on the very left of the image, there’s another Mustang. There’s a drop tank visible on the starboard wing, is it possible to make out a bomb on the port side?

 

Here’s a cropped view:

 

 

[Dave Swindell]

3 hours ago, SteveBrooking said:

There is a photo at the Imperial War Museum CNA 4901 in which I believe the third aircraft is CVB/KH615. There is a photo of a 112Sqn Mustang III which has the mixed load and the tank is under starboard wing.

Steve

Edit apologies I don't seem to be able to post a url.

 

3 hours ago, Karearea said:

I think you’re right!

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205212551

The IWM site has a specific method of posting (most of) their images on other sites like Britmodeller legally without needing a commercial licence

Find your image, below it on the right hand side is a "use Image" red button, click on this and copy the bbcode they give into your post on Britmodeller, you will get a small image (so folks can see what you're talking about)and a title with a source and copyright label which also links to the image on the IWM site, so your reader can see the full image, zoom in on it, and download it for their own personal use if required.

ROYAL AIR FORCE: ITALY, THE BALKANS AND SOUTH EAST EUROPE, 1942-1945.. Image: IWM (CNA 4901) IWM Non Commercial License

 

[tempestfan]

5 hours ago, Karearea said:

Interestingly, in photo CNA 4901 there’s a bomb visible under each port wing. Sure, there might be another under the starboard wing.

 

However, across the tarmac facing the camera, right on the very left of the image, there’s another Mustang. There’s a drop tank visible on the starboard wing, is it possible to make out a bomb on the port side?

 

Here’s a cropped view:

 

 

Looks to me like the machines on the opposite site are not bombed up - port pylons empty what I can see, but at least two with a tank starboard.

[Phoenix44]

6 hours ago, Karearea said:

Interestingly, in photo CNA 4901 there’s a bomb visible under each port wing. Sure, there might be another under the starboard wing.

 

However, across the tarmac facing the camera, right on the very left of the image, there’s another Mustang. There’s a drop tank visible on the starboard wing, is it possible to make out a bomb on the port side?

 

Here’s a cropped view:

 

 

The two aircraft on the other side might have drop tanks on the starboard wing.

[Boman]

Not sure how you make out CV-B, but definately found this thread interesting. 

For information, Novascale did CV-B KH845 in their sheet N-48051a
P-51K Mustang - RAAF - 3 Sqn., Novascale N-48051a (scalemates.com)

 

Quote

 

 

[Karearea]

1 hour ago, Boman said:

Not sure how you make out CV-B, but definately found this thread interesting. 

For information, Novascale did CV-B KH845 in their sheet N-48051a
P-51K Mustang - RAAF - 3 Sqn., Novascale N-48051a (scalemates.com)

 

 

The tail plane bisects the code letter so it could conceivably be CV-E or CV-C, but I’m happy to believe. CV-<> is visible next along, so maybe they liked parking KH616 and KH615 in order 😉

Thanks everyone!

[Jay Gee]

I got myself the Arma kit with the Red Roo decals a few weeks ago and have been trawling through the 3SQN records on the National Archives of Australia website, but didn't notice the mixed bomb/long range tank load before.

 

It looks like the first mission with this load was on 29 Nov 1944 and was quite common through to Jan 45, along with a mission on 21 Dec 44 with 'Special Cannisters' for "Special friends behind enemy lines". In Jan 45 it mentions fuel tanks filled with 100 octane fuel which was to be dropped with bombs. Towards the end of January it looks like the more common load was for 2 bombs each. Perhaps they didn't need the extra fuel to reach their targets? Also it mentions a few missions where the bombs and tanks were jettisoned into the sea when returning to base due to bad weather. Maybe they were dropped together with fuel still in the tanks?

 

I had a look through my copy of Southern Cross Mustangs, but couldn't find any photos with a mixed load. It does show a slightly different angle of the above picture with a few more aircraft aircraft with tanks under the right wing so it would be a good guess to go with that. 

Edited September 13 by Jay Gee

[NZTyphoon]

Mainly for interest, two books well worth having are David Muir's Southern Cross Mustangs ( mentioned by Jay Gee) and Cam Care's The 'Stang:  The former deals with both RAAF and RNZAF Mustangs in great technical detail, as well as describing their colour schemes and markings: it's expensive, but worth it. The latter book concentrates on RAAF Mustangs, with an emphasis on describing their operational service, from Italy, through the Pacific, post-war and civilian service. For instance, on page 31 the book mentions the December 6 1944 strike operation, led by a Flt Lt Ian Roediger. There is also technical section that describes the CAC built Mustangs.

[Paul Lucas]

7 hours ago, Jay Gee said:

. In Jan 45 it mentions fuel tanks filled with 100 octane fuel which was to be dropped with bombs. Towards the end of January it looks like the more common load was for 2 bombs each. Perhaps they didn't need the extra fuel to reach their targets? Also it mentions a few missions where the bombs and tanks were jettisoned into the sea when returning to base due to bad weather. Maybe they were dropped together with fuel still in the tanks?

Perhaps the intention was to use the fuel tank as a crude form of fire bomb, hence dropping it in conjunction with the HE bomb?

[Karearea]

7 hours ago, Jay Gee said:

It does show a slightly different angle of the above picture with a few more aircraft aircraft with tanks under the right wing so it would be a good guess to go with that. 

Thanks for having a look, much appreciated- I’ll go ahead with this setup. If you haven’t built the Arma Mustang before you’re in for a treat, it really is a lovely kit.
 

39 minutes ago, NZTyphoon said:

Mainly for interest, two books well worth having are David Muir's Southern Cross Mustangs ( mentioned by Jay Gee) and Cam Care's The 'Stang:  The former deals with both RAAF and RNZAF Mustangs in great technical detail, as well as describing their colour schemes and markings: it's expensive, but worth it. The latter book concentrates on RAAF Mustangs, with an emphasis on describing their operational service, from Italy, through the Pacific, post-war and civilian service. For instance, on page 31 the book mentions the December 6 1944 strike operation, led by a Flt Lt Ian Roediger. There is also technical section that describes the CAC built Mustangs.

Thank you for the recommendations, and for the reference to Ian Roediger in The ‘Stang- I’ve had Southern Cross Mustangs on my wishlist for quite a while, particularly as there are quite a few other RAAF and RNZAF TAF aircraft I’d like to build. I think I’ll need to order a copy soon.

 

30 minutes ago, Paul Lucas said:

Perhaps the intention was to use the fuel tank as a crude form of fire bomb, hence dropping it in conjunction with the HE bomb?

It does sound like that, interestingly.

[Jay Gee]

1 hour ago, Paul Lucas said:

Perhaps the intention was to use the fuel tank as a crude form of fire bomb, hence dropping it in conjunction with the HE bomb?

Just to clarify, I had another look at the squadron records. In the case of the mission with fuel tanks carrying 100 octane fuel, on 2/1/45:

 

" 12 aircraft, 6 carrying 2 500lb bombs each, with the remaining 6 carrying 2 long range tanks filled with incendiary material (specially treated 100 octane fuel). The bombs were dropped first and then the incendiary carrying aircraft went on a shallow dive and dropped their load on the same target.... results were quite good"

 

I didn't pick up that it wasn't a mixed load on each aircraft (was watching a good football game on TV at the time). However they may have tried something earlier with the mixed load. 

[Boman]

Sounds like they were dropping napalm. The USAAF 325FG introduced this to the MTO during 44/45. 

[Ed Russell]

On 9/13/2024 at 4:11 AM, Boman said:

Novascale did CV-B KH845 in their sheet N-48051a

Research before purchase highly recommended.

[EwenS]

There is an alternative explanation for the mixed load - range.

 

The Dec 1944 extracts from the ORB show the mission was over Bosnia-Herzegovina & Crotia (formerly Yugoslavia) on the other side of the Adriatic from their base in Italy. Check out the place names. At this time a number of units based in Italy were regularly flying missions over Yugoslavia in support of the Partisans against the retreating Germans who had just pulled out of Greece. That was as well as operating in support of Allied forces on the front line in Italy.

 

Where was the Jan 1945 mission flown to?

[Jay Gee]

2 hours ago, EwenS said:

There is an alternative explanation for the mixed load - range.

 

The Dec 1944 extracts from the ORB show the mission was over Bosnia-Herzegovina & Crotia (formerly Yugoslavia) on the other side of the Adriatic from their base in Italy. Check out the place names. At this time a number of units based in Italy were regularly flying missions over Yugoslavia in support of the Partisans against the retreating Germans who had just pulled out of Greece. That was as well as operating in support of Allied forces on the front line in Italy.

 

Where was the Jan 1945 mission flown to?

Mission on 2 Jan 45 was to a hamlet N.E. of Alfonsine in Italy. So approximately 150km from the airfields as the Mustang flies. 

Edited September 15 by Jay Gee

[EwenS]

3 hours ago, Jay Gee said:

Mission on 2 Jan 45 was to a hamlet N.E. of Alfonsine in Italy. So approximately 150km from the airfields as the Mustang flies. 

150km = 93 miles

 

Fano to Brod (as noted in the ORB at top of page) = 421km = 262 miles