Phantom FGR2 alternate recovery fields post-nuclear attack

[TheyJammedKenny!]

Does anyone know where the UK's air defense interceptors, those that managed to scramble in time, were expected to recover following a Soviet IRBM strike on the UK?  Were they mostly at ex Bomber Command sites in Scotland?

[Duncan B]

We didn't expect them to come back and if they did we didn't expect to be there for them!

The only 3 RAF bases in Scotland capable of operating Phantoms were all front line operational bases therefore viable targets so would most likely have all been hit on the same strike. Kinloss and Lossiemouth are only a few miles apart so could have gone with a single hit, Leuchars is less than 100 miles away (as the crow or warhead flies) so they could all have been taken out by a single, multiple warhead missile. I guess that they might have tried civil airfields like Wick (an ex RAF WW2 base) to the north or some other more out of the way place like Stornaway in the Western Isles but whether there would have been any ground support for them would be another question? (I can't be sure but I have a nagging thought that on some exercises they did divert to Stornaway, maybe one of the ex aircrew members can tell us?)

 

Duncan B

[TheyJammedKenny!]

I would assume this strike would take place after "other options" for political resolution were exhausted, which would have given ample time to disperse GSE and ground crews, but if you weren't expecting to receive the Phantoms, much less refuel and rearm them, it sounds like this was not given serious consideration.

[Max Headroom]

Vague memory of a half forgotten conversation in my Merseyside Aviation Society days, suggests Woodvale by Formby was considered. Suitably obscure and not far from large conurbations, railway nearby and on the coast (re supply from the sea in an emergency perhaps?)

One did land there for gate guard duties.

 

Trevor

[Duncan B]

20 hours ago, TheyJammedKenny! said:

I would assume this strike would take place after "other options" for political resolution were exhausted, which would have given ample time to disperse GSE and ground crews, but if you weren't expecting to receive the Phantoms, much less refuel and rearm them, it sounds like this was not given serious consideration.

Our exercises were 3 day affairs (held every second week with a call out type exercise on the other weeks) with the scenario being the build up to a conflict on the first day, a conventional conflict including air and ground attacks on the second day and then it all going nuclear on the third day. It may have been that some of the aircraft did go to dispersal but the bulk of them continued to operate on base to the end and if there was a plan to disperse in the event of a slow build up we were never privy to it and certainly didn't practice for it.

 

Duncan B

[TheyJammedKenny!]

4 hours ago, Duncan B said:

we were never privy to it and certainly didn't practice for it

If you didn't practice for it, then the plan likely didn't exist.  My experience in my own Air Force is that if you don't practice it, you won't just magically "figure it out" in wartime.  We did practice post-attack recovery during OREs and ORIs, and though the scenarios did not envision nuclear weapons use, there's no reason we couldn't have applied many of the same practices for safeguarding air and ground crew (MOPP) to continue offensive air operations after a nearby nu-det.  We did not, however, practice dispersal either, so we were a big target.

 

On the other hand, what happens to the pilots/navigators who manage to get off the ground?  Did they expect to just circle around the UK looking for a place to land that didn't have black oily smoke rising from it?

 

Frankly I'm surprised the RAF, with all its V-bomber experience, did not have a dispersal and recovery plan for its home defense interceptors against IRBM and nuke-tipped ASM attacks.  

[Phone Phixer]

Whether there was a plan tucked away in the darkest recesses of the MOD, it was never disseminated down to the active units and practised. That might have been so not to give a big clue to the Soviets where to target in any follow up strikes!

There were some publicity demonstrations of using stretches of motorway for operations, but that was using the likes of Jaguars with their rough terrain capability. Phantoms or Tornadoes were never used.

 

11 Sqn Tornado F3's at Leeming had a FOB role at Stornaway. That is why they operated off a conventional flight line, whereas the other 2 Leeming squadrons operated out of HAS sites.

 

All the air defence MOB's in the 80's had HAS sites built, so the plan may have been to survive as long as possible at those locations.

In RAF Germany, although we followed the same exercise timeline. We also were of the opinion that we would only see off the jets. Not so much of the possible nuclear strike, but the sheer number of Soviet armour coming over the German plains shutting down the base and the survivability of our jets numerical wise. 

[Duncan B]

On 8/24/2024 at 3:50 PM, TheyJammedKenny! said:

 

On the other hand, what happens to the pilots/navigators who manage to get off the ground?  Did they expect to just circle around the UK looking for a place to land that didn't have black oily smoke rising from it?

 

Frankly I'm surprised the RAF, with all its V-bomber experience, did not have a dispersal and recovery plan for its home defense interceptors against IRBM and nuke-tipped ASM attacks.  

 

They would continue to operate from Leuchars until it was put out of operation so we did expect to see some of them back until the base was nuked. At that point it was assumed that there were big mushroom clouds over all the bases and cities so I guess they would then look (or be directed but by whom?) to any available location. By that stage though there would be nothing to actually defend if ICBMs have done their job. Part of 43 Sqn's brief was to provide air cover for the Royal Navy in the GIUK gap so it is possible they would have looked to go north to Iceland if it was still viable.

 

 

12 hours ago, Phone Phixer said:

Whether there was a plan tucked away in the darkest recesses of the MOD, it was never disseminated down to the active units and practised. That might have been so not to give a big clue to the Soviets where to target in any follow up strikes!

There were some publicity demonstrations of using stretches of motorway for operations, but that was using the likes of Jaguars with their rough terrain capability. Phantoms or Tornadoes were never used.

 

11 Sqn Tornado F3's at Leeming had a FOB role at Stornaway. That is why they operated off a conventional flight line, whereas the other 2 Leeming squadrons operated out of HAS sites.

 

All the air defence MOB's in the 80's had HAS sites built, so the plan may have been to survive as long as possible at those locations.

In RAF Germany, although we followed the same exercise timeline. We also were of the opinion that we would only see off the jets. Not so much of the possible nuclear strike, but the sheer number of Soviet armour coming over the German plains shutting down the base and the survivability of our jets numerical wise. 

 

Stornaway does ring a distant bell in my memory as I mentioned before. Leuchars started building HAS sites towards the end of the Phantom era in time for the F3s arrival. By that stage we also had an Army engineering detachment (TA if I remember correctly) that would have been capable of repairing the runways from conventional bomb damage (to me it seems doubtful that we would ever have seen conventional bombers overhead, cruise missiles and standoff weapons were probably more likely. Once Germany had been overrun NATO would have gone nuclear anyway and that would have been the end of it). We considered the threat of Russian Special Forces attacking us as a serious and credible initial threat and trained hard at defending the airfield infrastructure from those kind of attacks. Ironically the RAF Regiment Squadron would up sticks and leave us at the first sign of trouble to set up their Rapiers off base and leave us penguins to do the fighting with the Spetnaz (so long as they both arrived on the same scooter we would have been fine!).

 

Duncan B

 

[Black Knight]

The military had nuclear proof bunkers near Portadown and Bishopscourt

They were still off-limits, Section D of the Official Secrets Act, and maintained for immediate use into the early part of the 1990s. Officially de-commissioned about 1998-99

I assume the command would move into these bunkers

Some old WW2 airfields were still maintained by the RAF until about 1994

Kirkistown airfield had become a motor racing track but their lease said they would have to move out without notice, if the RAF needed the airfield

[FalkeEins]

... currently read is Annie Jacobsen's 'Nuclear War', a minute-by-minute account of a preemptive strike on the US. Spoiler alert... nuclear war only lasts one hour, then there's nothing left. No 'plan' for any survivors has ever been published... 

[tempestfan]

On 8/26/2024 at 11:37 AM, Duncan B said:

Once Germany had been overrun NATO would have gone nuclear anyway and that would have been the end of it). 

 

Not sure if that would have happened so quickly - back then, we had a functioning and well-trained army, with plenty of the best tanks in the world. And anti-tank units trained for T72 turret shedding. The Soviets may have had a giant armada of MBTs, but their logistics would have more than struggled to resupply them in particular with fuel (still in evidence in the current war). They were actually supposed to refuel at German commercial petrol stations... well, had they found any not blown up.

 

Kirkwall looks like a nice place to go, not the largest of runways but doesn't look much smaller than Stornoway. Good Whisky too - a bit like On the Beach without a Sub...

[Duncan B]

18 hours ago, tempestfan said:

Not sure if that would have happened so quickly - back then, we had a functioning and well-trained army, with plenty of the best tanks in the world. And anti-tank units trained for T72 turret shedding. The Soviets may have had a giant armada of MBTs, but their logistics would have more than struggled to resupply them in particular with fuel (still in evidence in the current war). They were actually supposed to refuel at German commercial petrol stations... well, had they found any not blown up.

 

Kirkwall looks like a nice place to go, not the largest of runways but doesn't look much smaller than Stornoway. Good Whisky too - a bit like On the Beach without a Sub...

It was assumed (if not advertised) that NATO would be forced to go nuclear first with tactical nukes to slow the Russian advance as the estimated timescale for the Russians reaching Paris from crossing the border was 2 weeks without it. Maybe that was just posturing from NATO's POV suggesting that we would have sacrificed West Germany. Thankfully we are able to sit here debating whether that would have been accurate or not, I certainly wouldn't like to find out for sure!

 

I think Stornaway was probable because there was (might still be?) a small RAF presence there supporting a tracking station IIRC. Sumburgh in Shetland might have been another possibility?

 

Duncan B

 

 

[iainpeden]

I think Stornaway was likely, purely on the basis that XV422 was retired there - at least proving the runway could take one. XV422/J was the Phantom which shot down the Jaguar.

[PLC1966]

Soviet Doctrine was always to use battlefield Nukes in the event they piled forward which would have left a mess on the North German Plains and in the Fulda Gap that's for sure.  Too late for posturing then!!!  Link battlefield nukes, with atomic demolition munitions, atomic landmines, Nuclear depth charges and Nuclear tipped torpedoes, it would not have taken long for world to have been finished.

 

Duncan B, as for Russian forces in Scotland on the big day, there was a plan to drop a Russian Airbornse/Spetnaz Brigade in Scotland to go for the Airfields and Centres of Government.  So it would have been Cooks, Admin, Stackers and Techies toe to toe with the nasty Ivans had it gone wrong, not a nice thought.  Although I believe the Army had a TA Brigade that was tasked with catching the baddies to be based in Central Scotland..

 

Nuke wise I think I read that the plan was for two warheads per RAF Airfield in the UK.  Don't know about RAFG, maybe the Germany fields would not have been nuked as they could then have been used to base their own jets on when advancing through Europe. 

 

As to the initial question, there must have been emergency airfields for jets to land at in the event of a Warsaw Pact taking out RAF Bases.  I would think Civi Airports would have been requisitioned during the Transition To War.  Maybe Edinburgh, Newcastle, Stansted, Manston, LHR, Gatwick.  While not practiced there would have been Transition To War plans deep in the vaults of the various Sqns. 

 

To be fair, Nukes kind of never worried me, if they were on the menu all bets were off.  The Warsaw Pact dropping non-permanent Nerve and Blood agents were the ones that I really didn't fancy.  Despite all the NBC kit, Forced air shelters, PBF's etc they would have been awful.  I think COVID showed how poor we were dealing with nasties as people when we have time to think about what we were doing, dealing with products that kill through inhalation, absorbsion or ingestion would have been horrible during or post an air raid would not have been good.  

 

@Phone Phixer I don't know what HAS you would have been in had it gone off on 19(F), I would have been in HES27 fairly smashing down the emergency supply of Hereforder 10 Packs we kept stashed away, in the expectation the bad guys would take us out one or we would be getting marched out to guard a bridge or man a gun pit somewhere fairly soon after the start of proceedings.

[TheyJammedKenny!]

3 hours ago, PLC1966 said:

Hereforder 10 Packs

What?  You didn't have 6- and 24-packs like we did?  I had no idea England went metric!

[Mr T]

I once read that the Soviets were going to largely leave the UK alone, at least in terms of tactical nukes, as they realised that any sort of nuke on UK soil could provoke a strategic response. In the early eighties the Soviets were paranoid about NATO attacking them, which strikes me as having a Crsis in confidence in their own abilities, possibly bought about by what was happening in Afghanistan. 

There are seemed to be some concerns in the WarPac states that using tactical nukes against NATO would mean that the DDR, Western Poland and bits of Czechoslovkia would be irradiated even if NATO did not respond, due to the prevailing winds. 

Apparently there was a change in Soviet military doctrine after Chernobyl, when they realised how difficult it would be to operate on a nuclear battlefield. There are some interesting photos of the amount of military kit that had to be abandoned in the area due to irradiation. This included some helicopters like Mil6s that had been used to dump stuff into the reactor. Manpower losses never seem to worry the Russians, but you do wonder if there was a limit. 

[TheyJammedKenny!]

Indeed, I acknowledge that after 1985 especially the risks of a crisis developing into a NATO-WP clash were slight, though the effects of such a clash would have been grave to "extremely grave."  Nonetheless, every military makes plans, even if the plans do not reach fruition.  Plans and exercises that test the plans are means for enhancing deterrence.  Contrary to some others' opinions, I have always considered post-clash survival and recovery plans to be essential to deterrence, not provocative of military solutions.  If an adversary is persuaded that an enemy's military is likely to continue operating after a first strike, even at reduced capacity, and to deliver "effects" on the battle-space, it decreases the likelihood that he will perceive benefits from a military solution to begin with.  A friend of mine and retired naval surface warfare officer told me he expected his ships could survive low-yield nuclear detonations at relatively close range (due to the inaccuracy of intelligence data available to the Soviets) and even be ready to continue fighting afterward.  It helps to have lots of metal around you!

[tempestfan]

4 hours ago, PLC1966 said:

Hereforder 10 Packs

Hereforder or Herforder?

[PLC1966]

 

5 hours ago, tempestfan said:

Hereforder or Herforder?

Herforder........Herfy Handbags, 10 x 330cl bottles, standard currency and life saver through out BFG. 

 

Somebody did you a favour, one or two packs. going round somebodies for lunch, take a pack, an afternoon set building in the theatre club, take a couple of packs.......

 

 

[PLC1966]

5 hours ago, Mr T said:

Apparently there was a change in Soviet military doctrine after Chernobyl, when they realised how difficult it would be to operate on a nuclear battlefield. There are some interesting photos of the amount of military kit that had to be abandoned in the area due to irradiation. This included some helicopters like Mil6s that had been used to dump stuff into the reactor. Manpower losses never seem to worry the Russians, but you do wonder if there was a limit. 

Those Soviet helicopter pilots over Chernobyl, brave boys working over the Power Station knowing they were literally working themselves to death.

[PLC1966]

6 hours ago, TheyJammedKenny! said:

What?  You didn't have 6- and 24-packs like we did?  I had no idea England went metric!

I worked on a US, well Turkish airfield, Incirlik for four months, we went big on Becks kegs, four or five litre kegs.  We went through enough kegs to build an inner wall running alongside the wall of the accommodation.  It was a lot of kegs.  My other memory from there was I would go to the BX and buy two pork chops, a litre bottle of vodka, a litre bottle of bloody mary mix, mix the drinks up, refill the bottles then head up to the girls tent-line for a BBQ.  

[TheyJammedKenny!]

40 minutes ago, PLC1966 said:

head up to the girls tent-line for a BBQ.  

Naughty, naughty!  We had separate tent lines in the Desert, and it was extremely difficult to enforce the separation, though senior female NCOs did patrol the area.  Of course, there was no alcohol, officially, on account of Order Number 1.  On a separate note, I am curious whether anyone assigned to the RAF detachment at Al Kharj, Saudi Arabia, can confirm the suspicion we (USAF) had that there was beer available at the RAF mess.  The RAF's food was better than ours, and it didn't help our morale to be told that the RAF's senior medical officer had condemned our food preparation as unsanitary, which is why the RAF had its own mess.

 

I hung out with 9th Squadron (B) while I was there, by the way.  Its intel officer was an RAFG hand, and was happy to have yanks over.

[junglierating]

Hmm reading all this makes me think that whilst I was jealous of the RAFG boys whilst in Decimomanu....in time of heightened alert sat on a CVS with 8+ SHARS was kinda quite preferable to Germany

[XV107]

On 8/28/2024 at 3:56 PM, Mr T said:

I once read that the Soviets were going to largely leave the UK alone, at least in terms of tactical nukes, as they realised that any sort of nuke on UK soil could provoke a strategic response. In the early eighties the Soviets were paranoid about NATO attacking them, which strikes me as having a Crsis in confidence in their own abilities, possibly bought about by what was happening in Afghanistan. 

There are seemed to be some concerns in the WarPac states that using tactical nukes against NATO would mean that the DDR, Western Poland and bits of Czechoslovkia would be irradiated even if NATO did not respond, due to the prevailing winds. 

Apparently there was a change in Soviet military doctrine after Chernobyl, when they realised how difficult it would be to operate on a nuclear battlefield. There are some interesting photos of the amount of military kit that had to be abandoned in the area due to irradiation. This included some helicopters like Mil6s that had been used to dump stuff into the reactor. Manpower losses never seem to worry the Russians, but you do wonder if there was a limit. 

 

A very good point - the Soviets were convinced (and they were probably right to be) that Jim Callaghan and Mrs Thatcher  - particularly the latter - would authorise a full-on 'the weather forecast today in the Moscow/Leningrad/Volgograd region is for temperatures of 1,000,000 degrees Celsius with occasional gusts of wind of up to 2,500mph: pack that factor 4550, comrades!' response to any nuclear attack on the UK (Callaghan was eventually persuaded to say that he would indeed have retaliated 'but would never have been able to live with myself had I survived'; nobody asked Thatcher, since it was just assumed that the answer to 'would you have...?' was blindingly obvious...).

 

There is one strand of opinion which holds that the Soviets  may well have conducted a couple of strikes on airfields or military facilities, but might very well have concluded that as long as GLCM wasn't being pinged at mother Russia from a field not that far from the A339, nuclear use against the UK should be confined to things like carrier groups, etc, etc, just to be on the safe side. This view is, of course, contested when measured against Soviet doctrine.

 

There were also concerns that the Poles might 'have views' on taking mild fallout, never mind being hit - I once met a retired Russian officer who confided that he was convinced that they'd find a Polish armoured division bearing down on the Kremlin to settle some 300 years of scores had the balloon gone up  - and the reliability of allies, apart from the East Germans, was always uncertain.

 

Anyway, Stornaway was a FOB; Phantoms deployed there in support of Ex OCEAN SAFARI in 1987, and Tornado F3s were there in 1989.

 

 

And because Mr Putin is being a bit of a nuisance, some Typhoons have visited more recently...

Edited August 30, 2024 by XV107

[junglierating]

Ex OCEAN SAFARI....in 87 ? Surely Purple Warrior?....or was one the prelude to the other....had 800 ,1 Squadron ourselves 801 and a det from filthy pingers 826 on board ARK for that...kinda tight