zotz Posted August 14 Share Posted August 14 Dear Gents, Were these Spitfires finished in desert camo or left Gray/Green? https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.asisbiz.com%2Fil2%2FSpitfire%2FRAF-352Sqn%2Fpages%2FSpitfire-MkVcTrop-RAF-352Sqn-G-MH592-Hinko-Sonic-Yugoslavia-1944-03.html%3Ffbclid%3DIwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR0Ofrl4JY30ZCgEhf0DgTOsV_P1-VbdE3uVqs5D-aXfZDd_I2owUm2iYpY_aem_AeZ568bLtxl1xNN2O2BdHw&h=AT3K11VECgkrFf_HhnDDe_I85QumQgv7GY-4w66y8-VD9cT3i3tf8cU-zl1-3Dj77IAUY19lPAe0r9BroBlEJV92IVFK3b85XOBsOWYudhRkOH7ooU0iq2_NT0ZtiHz33DE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted August 14 Share Posted August 14 352 Sq operating with the Balkan AF were in green and grey. They may have had desert-camouflaged Spitfires when working up elsewhere in the Middle East, but the data of 1944 seems early for operations. I do have a book on the subject, I'll try to look it up tonight to check the early use. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted August 14 Share Posted August 14 1 hour ago, zotz said: Dear Gents, Were these Spitfires finished in desert camo or left Gray/Green? https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.asisbiz.com%2Fil2%2FSpitfire%2FRAF-352Sqn%2Fpages%2FSpitfire-MkVcTrop-RAF-352Sqn-G-MH592-Hinko-Sonic-Yugoslavia-1944-03.html%3Ffbclid%3DIwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR0Ofrl4JY30ZCgEhf0DgTOsV_P1-VbdE3uVqs5D-aXfZDd_I2owUm2iYpY_aem_AeZ568bLtxl1xNN2O2BdHw&h=AT3K11VECgkrFf_HhnDDe_I85QumQgv7GY-4w66y8-VD9cT3i3tf8cU-zl1-3Dj77IAUY19lPAe0r9BroBlEJV92IVFK3b85XOBsOWYudhRkOH7ooU0iq2_NT0ZtiHz33DE rather than route through farcebook,,, https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Spitfire/RAF-352Sqn.html Most of the images show a Sky fuselage band and spinner, which was factory applied for the Day Fighter Scheme. the one exception I spotted Given this has MH592 has an Aboukir filter, and the serial is on a light patch, this maybe a desert scheme which has had the Middle Stone overpainted in Dark Green. This did happen. This is a Hurricane in this scheme Hurrican HW189 B front by losethekibble, on Flickr This image, taken on film which makes the yellow look black, and the red dark, has darkish underside, Azure Blue is a purple blue http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/p064.html MH592 VcT CBAF M55 6MU 14-8-43 47MU 5-9-43 'Ocean Rider' 23-9-43 Casablanca 10-10-43 NAfricanASC 31-10-43 352Sq Yugoslav AF as '9487' 'G' 18-5-45 (Belgrade Museum initially confused with JK808) Apparently this still exits I'll @dragonlanceHR @Supercuber who maybe able to add more on this, I presume these photos are mostly from a book? Perhaps this is the book @Graham Boak mentions? HTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zotz Posted August 14 Author Share Posted August 14 Thanks so much. They were taken from the web while looking for rare schemes while producing a Vc decal sheet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zotz Posted August 14 Author Share Posted August 14 12 minutes ago, zotz said: Thanks so much. They were taken from the web while looking for rare schemes while producing a Vc decal sheet. 41 minutes ago, Troy Smith said: rather than route through farcebook,,, https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Spitfire/RAF-352Sqn.html Most of the images show a Sky fuselage band and spinner, which was factory applied for the Day Fighter Scheme. the one exception I spotted Given this has MH592 has an Aboukir filter, and the serial is on a light patch, this maybe a desert scheme which has had the Middle Stone overpainted in Dark Green. This did happen. This is a Hurricane in this scheme Hurrican HW189 B front by losethekibble, on Flickr This image, taken on film which makes the yellow look black, and the red dark, has darkish underside, Azure Blue is a purple blue http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/p064.html MH592 VcT CBAF M55 6MU 14-8-43 47MU 5-9-43 'Ocean Rider' 23-9-43 Casablanca 10-10-43 NAfricanASC 31-10-43 352Sq Yugoslav AF as '9487' 'G' 18-5-45 (Belgrade Museum initially confused with JK808) Apparently this still exits I'll @dragonlanceHR @Supercuber who maybe able to add more on this, I presume these photos are mostly from a book? Perhaps this is the book @Graham Boak mentions? HTH Troy: Would the bottoms be finished in Azure blue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted August 14 Share Posted August 14 1 minute ago, zotz said: Troy: Would the bottoms be finished in Azure blue? the only 352 Sq Spitfire Vc in the link which may have Azure Blue is MH592. Repainting the upper surface into Temperate Land Scheme (Dark Green/Dark Earth) has been documented in Tunisia, and Italy, but was far more common in SEAC when they received Desert Scheme finished aircraft. All the others in the linked Asisbiz page look to be Day Fighter Scheme, Dark Green/Ocean Grey over Medium Sea Grey, with Sky spinners and fuselage bands. (note capitalisation, these are the actual paint names) If you have not seen this scanned here https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Camouflage-Markings/Supermarine-Spitfire this is still one of the best introductory guides, while it only cover North West Europe, the markings were factory applied, and the camouflage pattern is the same for any colour scheme, as well as the roundel and fin flash sizes. You may find this of use as well https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Camouflage-Markings/British-Aircraft-in-USAAF-Service the whole series are in the link. They also have the old profile series and Aircam books, which will show what photos have been around for a long time, the actual profiles vary in usefulness/accuracy HTH 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zotz Posted August 14 Author Share Posted August 14 40 minutes ago, Troy Smith said: the only 352 Sq Spitfire Vc in the link which may have Azure Blue is MH592. Repainting the upper surface into Temperate Land Scheme (Dark Green/Dark Earth) has been documented in Tunisia, and Italy, but was far more common in SEAC when they received Desert Scheme finished aircraft. All the others in the linked Asisbiz page look to be Day Fighter Scheme, Dark Green/Ocean Grey over Medium Sea Grey, with Sky spinners and fuselage bands. (note capitalisation, these are the actual paint names) If you have not seen this scanned here https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Camouflage-Markings/Supermarine-Spitfire this is still one of the best introductory guides, while it only cover North West Europe, the markings were factory applied, and the camouflage pattern is the same for any colour scheme, as well as the roundel and fin flash sizes. You may find this of use as well https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Camouflage-Markings/British-Aircraft-in-USAAF-Service the whole series are in the link. They also have the old profile series and Aircam books, which will show what photos have been around for a long time, the actual profiles vary in usefulness/accuracy HTH How would you finish MH592? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted August 14 Share Posted August 14 Sorry, I can't find the Yugoslavian-published booklet. I think it was simply called 352 (Yugoslavian) Squadron, or similar. It isn't in either of the two places it could legitimately have been, so must have been misfiled. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jure Miljevic Posted August 14 Share Posted August 14 Hello, it is excepted as fact that Hinko Sojic's Spitfire had been painted in desert colours. This is not correct, though. There is a colour (not colourised) footage in IWM, collection, taken on Vis in 1944/45, which includes 352(Y) Sq. mission briefing and take-off of aircraft. It clearly shows MH592 in Dark Green/Ocean Grey/Sea Gray Medium camouflage. The footage was debated two or three years ago on this forum, but I could not find the topic at the moment. The video also shows, that MH592 had clipped wings. Cheers Jure 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zotz Posted August 14 Author Share Posted August 14 25 minutes ago, Jure Miljevic said: Hello, it is excepted as fact that Hinko Sojic's Spitfire had been painted in desert colours. This is not correct, though. There is a colour (not colourised) footage in IWM, collection, taken on Vis in 1944/45, which includes 352(Y) Sq. mission briefing and take-off of aircraft. It clearly shows MH592 in Dark Green/Ocean Grey/Sea Gray Medium camouflage. The footage was debated two or three years ago on this forum, but I could not find the topic at the moment. The video also shows, that MH592 had clipped wings. Cheers Jure Thanking you for this information! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted August 14 Share Posted August 14 58 minutes ago, Jure Miljevic said: The footage was debated two or three years ago on this forum, but I could not find the topic at the moment. Thanks Jure I was having a recollection of some film.... @zotz Link to time of G https://youtu.be/jzxa9KcoSUo?t=495 Interestingly they appear to have light blue spinners, this is D, passing camera, and the Sky band looks near white, while spinner is light blue https://youtu.be/jzxa9KcoSUo?t=497 HTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonlanceHR Posted August 15 Share Posted August 15 8 hours ago, Jure Miljevic said: Hello, it is excepted as fact that Hinko Sojic's Spitfire had been painted in desert colours. This is not correct, though. There is a colour (not colourised) footage in IWM, collection, taken on Vis in 1944/45, which includes 352(Y) Sq. mission briefing and take-off of aircraft. It clearly shows MH592 in Dark Green/Ocean Grey/Sea Gray Medium camouflage. The footage was debated two or three years ago on this forum, but I could not find the topic at the moment. The video also shows, that MH592 had clipped wings. Cheers Jure What he said. That colour footage is priceless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonlanceHR Posted August 15 Share Posted August 15 See, @Graham Boak this is the danger of old, surpassed books (re: the VVS discussion). Overall, the No.352 (Y) squadron book was good overall, esp. for that time, but it spreads some inaccuracies that the average modeller may not recognize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted August 15 Share Posted August 15 (edited) The KP kit has late look of roundels on the top of the wings. Initially the red stars were taking whole diameter of B roundel without any white left Later the insignia on the top of wing became with white indeed, but I am not when it was. Here https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Spitfire/RAF-352Sqn/pages/Spitfire-MkVcTrop-RAF-352Sqn-D-BR130-Yugoslavia-Oct-1944-02.html it is seen on a take dated for October 1944 and also on other said to origin in March 1945, but initially they looked differently. Also the fin flash sometimes is revered (blue-white-red). Does anybody know the rules here? Regards J-W Edited August 15 by JWM 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted August 15 Share Posted August 15 @dragonlanceHR, this is also the danger of old age. Old publication? Surely not! I bought the book when it appeared in the UK, which was only a few years back... it seems. Of course this may not have been the first appearance of the information at home. However I don't think any more modern information has appeared in the UK - this is the value of an international board such as this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jure Miljevic Posted August 15 Share Posted August 15 Hello! Amen to that, dragonlanceHR! J-W, photos you posted were publicity material and had been taken at Canne airbase in time of the squadron's first combat mission on 18th August 1944. (Interestingly, in Цпитфајер booklet Aleksandar Kolo and Bojan Dimitrijevic suggest that one of the participating aircraft (EP439, K) had lower surfaces repainted in Azure Blue.) It seems that initially white was indeed omitted from roundels on wing's top surface, but reappeared later. However, there is no firm rule about it as roundels varied in size. The same goes for the red stars, which more often than not also got a bit "chunky". Colours of Yugoslav flag on tailfin had been occasionally reversed, and two of the photos from Vis shows one of the Spitfires (MH5xx, P) still with RAF fin flash. Also, in March 1945 at least one replacement aircraft (JL168, P) arrived with dark, probably black spinner. As usually, the best practice is to find as many photos as possible of one's modelling subject. Cheers Jure 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonlanceHR Posted August 15 Share Posted August 15 2 hours ago, Graham Boak said: @dragonlanceHR, this is also the danger of old age. Old publication? Surely not! I bought the book when it appeared in the UK, which was only a few years back... it seems. Of course this may not have been the first appearance of the information at home. However I don't think any more modern information has appeared in the UK - this is the value of an international board such as this one. Tino Jelavic book is from 2003. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted August 15 Share Posted August 15 Some photos also suggest that machine were overpainted from previous brighter scheme (desert one). Look here on ) in serial 12 hours ago, Troy Smith said: And the whole background of serial here: 18 hours ago, Troy Smith said: This photo is done most likely on ortho film (or using filter): 18 hours ago, Troy Smith said: the yellow outline and star red star are very dark but not the camo, what confirms a lack of yellow or red pigments in camo paints The "chunk" stars are when (as on above on right and top)) the arms of two sided does not form a straight line... Regards J-W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supercuber Posted August 15 Share Posted August 15 You should check Avions magazine # 219-220 for latest PARTISAN RAF PT1 & 2 articles, photos .profiles, schemes ,listings and stories , explain a lot about both Spitfires and Hurricanes in Yugoslav AF service. Also, Lift Here allready covered almost all Spitfires in all scales in various decals set , still available . RGDS Nenad/Supercuber 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Aereo Posted August 15 Share Posted August 15 22 hours ago, Jure Miljevic said: Hello, it is excepted as fact that Hinko Sojic's Spitfire had been painted in desert colours. This is not correct, though. There is a colour (not colourised) footage in IWM, collection, taken on Vis in 1944/45, which includes 352(Y) Sq. mission briefing and take-off of aircraft. It clearly shows MH592 in Dark Green/Ocean Grey/Sea Gray Medium camouflage. The footage was debated two or three years ago on this forum, but I could not find the topic at the moment. The video also shows, that MH592 had clipped wings. Cheers Jure I think it might have been this thread: https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235084659-raf-day-fighter-use-of-yellow-leading-edge-in-the-mediterranean-352-sqdn-spitfire/#comment-3916704 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jure Miljevic Posted August 20 Share Posted August 20 Yes, that is the one, thanks Super Aereo. Cheers Jure 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modelldoc Posted August 20 Share Posted August 20 Long time ago, Smer offer a Spitfire in these markings: https://www.flickr.com/photos/21603181@N08/49183888253/in/dateposted/ modelldoc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jure Miljevic Posted August 20 Share Posted August 20 Hello Nice model, modelldoc. Smer, however, repacked the old Heller Spitfire Vb kit, but with Vc markings. I built several of those Heller kits as a teenager, but even then there were better kits available. I much prefered the old Airfix Spitfire Vb with Zumbach's RF-D and USAAF Lima Challenger decals, which appeared at about the same time. Cheers Jure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jovapad Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 Would this one be in the desert scheme? Since there is no Sky band and the undersides look rather dark (possibly Azzure blue?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jure Miljevic Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 Hello jovapad In Tino Jelavic's book there is a colour profile of JL235 in Dark Earth/Mid Stone however the caption says she was probably painted in faded daylight fighter scheme. In first few post-war decades (and in some cases, much longer) when photos for publications had been sourced from official archives one got photo of the photo. When the same photos were reproduced from the books their quality declined with even further. Cheers Jure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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