Zero but not zilch **Finished**

[Zephyr91]

Good morning!

 

Just to show there is some actual modelling going on, albeit slowly, rather than just waffle ......

 

 

Still a WIP but not far from fuselage closure now.   Have added bits, but not much will be seen once the canopy is on - I've checked.  But I'm enjoying this bit really.   I've added masking tape seat belts and stretched sprue bits for the stick and seat height adjustment.  I'm sure Charlie @Johnson will do a lot better job when he gets around to doing his version of this kit.

 

The photo is a help.  I just noticed that I need to thin the walls of the exhaust pipes a bit.  I'm also trying to do a headrest, which seems noticeable in some photos.

 

Regarding the finish, I think I'll just go with the box scheme.  Thanks for all the helpful suggestions, but I feel I need to complete this fairly quickly.  Doing a more "realistic" scheme would mean I have to read up on it (based on all the wonderful info provided by everyone here, for which again thanks) and get some new paints (probably) to do it all justice.  AND it would take me far longer than I have just now.

 

 

Thanks for looking

 

Rob

[Zephyr91]

Hi.

 

Thinking about this finish, I have a few old tinlets of Airfix paint.  Two of these are the main colours indicated on the box.

 

These haven't been opened since 1984 at the latest!  So with some trepidation I eased the lids off expecting just solid lumps.  But no!

  

 

 

After stirring with cocktail sticks until my fingers were starting to cramp, I got a rather lumpy liquid in each tin.   Don't think I'll be trying that in the airbrush but I felt I had to try some hairy brushing of the paint to see how it looked.   The grey M13 would have looked better if I'd used a sensibly sized brush!   Promising.   The M17 seems very dark.  Still sorting seams on the fuse so little area free to try it, but the bit behind the seat was used.

 

They've still to dry out properly, but I may resort to using them as it fits exactly with the spirit of the GB in my view!   😁.  Must get a bigger brush!   Having moved to an airbrush I only have narrow bristle brushes for fine detail.  🖌️

 

Anyway, need to finish this fuselage......

 

Thanks for looking

 

Rob

[Troy Smith]

18 minutes ago, Zephyr91 said:

After stirring with cocktail sticks until my fingers were starting to cramp, I got a rather lumpy liquid in each tin.

Get a wire coathanger,  or similar wire,  cut off about 4 inches,  use pliers to bend the end to right angle the width of the tin opening, it will be a L shape.  this allows you to mash the pigment and get into the corner of the tin, one agitated you can twizzle between fingers. 

Worth rounding off the the cut ends with a file till smooth,     I was doing this in 1981.....   Avoid wood as the solvent soaks in. 

Try thinning with lighter fuel,  I have not as yet tried lighter fuel with vintage Airfix, but they have a very petrol smell.   I recently got some tins for 10p each, the one I tried stirring as per above came up wonderfully, if a bit thick.

I just a bought some more lighter fuel so will check.

 

Try a small FLAT brush, I use them for acrylic and they are a game changer.

Pics still not showing on laptop, but they showed on phone.

 

cheers

T

[Zephyr91]

@Mike sorry to bother you but some readers (not all)  are only seeing "spacer.png" instead of the photos in this thread.  I've tried the FAQs but not seen the problem and am at a bit of a loss.   I use Onedrive.

 

The link or whatever it's called looks like this

 

https://1drv.ms/i/c/517e109c029f9410/IQNWOV_-NSOAQLK--peo1LTSAS7LYU8CACnwDWFstOzvMUM?width=1024

 

I use the "insert image from URL" box as originally advised.  But I noticed when I just pasted the link above that the photo appeared.

 

Should i be doing anything different so that all readers can see?   I think @Troy Smith has been particularly affected by this.

 

cheers

 

Rob

 

 

[Mike]

2 minutes ago, Zephyr91 said:

@Mike sorry to bother you but some readers (not all)  are only seeing "spacer.png" instead of the photos in this thread.  I've tried the FAQs but not seen the problem and am at a bit of a loss.   I use Onedrive.

 

The link or whatever it's called looks like this

 

https://1drv.ms/i/c/517e109c029f9410/IQNWOV_-NSOAQLK--peo1LTSAS7LYU8CACnwDWFstOzvMUM?width=1024

 

 

 

You're doing everything right from what I can see, but there seems to be a bit of sloth on the site at the moment.  I'm not sure where it's coming from, but I think it's causing some of the photos to time-out.  I can't seem to download your last pic to test the file size, which might have something to do with it.  If the pic is over 250kb or so, it'll be slower to download, and if there's an extra lag at the moment, that's more likely to cause a time-out.  Keep an eye on things, and see how it goes

[Zephyr91]

1 minute ago, Mike said:

 

You're doing everything right from what I can see, but there seems to be a bit of sloth on the site at the moment.  I'm not sure where it's coming from, but I think it's causing some of the photos to time-out.  I can't seem to download your last pic to test the file size, which might have something to do with it.  If the pic is over 250kb or so, it'll be slower to download, and if there's an extra lag at the moment, that's more likely to cause a time-out.  Keep an eye on things, and see how it goes

Thanks Mike.   The size choices I get when doing the embed include 1024.  Should I use the next size down?

 

As an aside, thanks for all the hard work you chaps put in to keep BM going and on track.

 

cheers

 

Rob

[Zephyr91]

14 minutes ago, Mike said:

 

You're doing everything right from what I can see, but there seems to be a bit of sloth on the site at the moment.  I'm not sure where it's coming from, but I think it's causing some of the photos to time-out.  I can't seem to download your last pic to test the file size, which might have something to do with it.  If the pic is over 250kb or so, it'll be slower to download, and if there's an extra lag at the moment, that's more likely to cause a time-out.  Keep an eye on things, and see how it goes

Mike, I've just checked and the file size (after reducing to 1024 pixels) is 214kb.  So that shouldn't be an issue hopefully.

 

cheers

 

Rob

[Mike]

8 minutes ago, Zephyr91 said:

Mike, I've just checked and the file size (after reducing to 1024 pixels) is 214kb.  So that shouldn't be an issue hopefully.

 

cheers

 

Rob

Should be fine at that size, yeah.  I've experienced one or two of these slow-downs lately, and if they persist we'll have to get someone to look at it, but I'm hoping they'll just go away.

[PeterB]

JNAF Green was a dark blackish green with perhaps also a hint of blue, but that could just be my eyes. The paint scheme on the back of the box looks more like the JAAF sort of Olive Green to me - which at least would match their markings.😆 The black on the cowling, like the Xtracolour RAF Night, also had a slight hint of blue rather than being pure black, or at least that is the current common belief as I understand it

Edited August 16 by PeterB

[Zephyr91]

13 hours ago, PeterB said:

JNAF Green was a dark blackish green with perhaps also a hint of blue, but that could just be my eyes. The paint scheme on the back of the box looks more like the JAAF sort of Olive Green to me - which at least would match their markings.😆 The black on the cowling, like the Xtracolour RAF Night, also had a slight hint of blue rather than being pure black, or at least that is the current common belief as I understand it

Thanks Peter.  Another useful snippet there.

 

The photo has lightened the colours a bit, so I'll stick with  the Airfix M17 as it is very dark. 

 

Regarding the cowling "Night....... had a slight hint of blue" it is academic as far as the box scheme is concerned.   Despite almost every aircraft photo I've seen showing a black(ish) cowling the box doesn't!!    As I happen to have some "Night"  I'll deviate from the box scheme in that respect. 

 

I also gather that some of the internal colour can be a greeny-blue almost turquoise in some cases.  Whilst I don't want to open a    I notice that the box art shows the inside face of the udercarriage doors as something like that.  It calls it out as M8 which if my listing is correct was "Duck Egg Blue".    I don't have any M8 but do have an old Humbrol tin (90) of something similar.  If it's usable I'll use it.  

 

Seems strange to me that the old kit should pick out the internal colour (albeit not necessarily to the latest researched standards) but entirely miss the black/night cowling external colouring which seems so typical.   I wonder what their source was?

 

Anyway, to plastic mangling .....

 

 

A bit of assembly is underway.  The cowling is now on and main bits stuck.  Still to start on gap filling, but not too bad.  Worst thing to me was the look of both the carburettor intake on the cowling and the smaller intake directly behind it.   Just too big and out of proportion in both cases in my opinion - so I couldn't leave them.   The smaller aft intake is dry fitted here but still needs some shaping and carving.

 

This photo, supplied by @Fukuryu previously, shows what I am wittering on about .....  the kit parts were just too big to be ignored even for a nostalgia build

 

Trying to keep this simple, but it keeps teasing me into doing more than I'd intended.   Enjoying it really, and I suppose I'm getting full value for money out of the kit.     If all the parts were the right shape and fitted well it might be a bit boring ....... 

 

Thanks for looking

 

Cheers

 

Rob

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, Zephyr91 said:

I also gather that some of the internal colour can be a greeny-blue almost turquoise in some cases.  Whilst I don't want to open a

Depended on who built it for the cockpit.

 

The greeny blue is a clear protective varnish, Aotake,  it look like a metallic as it's applied over bare metal

http://www.aviationofjapan.com/2010/02/aotake-part-one.html

http://www.aviationofjapan.com/2010/02/aotake-part-2.html

 

the metallic blue greeny bit on the wing stub is Aotake, this is 'as is'

 

restored

 

from

https://www.igluemodels.com/post/aotake

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Zephyr91 said:

   I notice that the box art shows the inside face of the udercarriage doors as something like that.  It calls it out as M8 which if my listing is correct was "Duck Egg Blue".    I don't have any M8 but do have an old Humbrol tin (90) of something similar.  If it's usable I'll use it.  

Airfix M8 is a light blue-green,  the nearest Humbrol was Matt 23 duck egg blue, H90 is meant to be 'Sky' and the nearest Airfix is M16, which is what the called out for Sky.

 

1 hour ago, Zephyr91 said:

Seems strange to me that the old kit should pick out the internal colour (albeit not necessarily to the latest researched standards) but entirely miss the black/night cowling external colouring which seems so typical.   I wonder what their source was?

well, it's a very old kit.

Info on Japanese colours was very patchy and frequently inaccurate, the first serious studies are the book by Donald Thorpe in the late 60 and early 70's  and they were about it

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/book-search/isbn/9780816865871/

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/book-search/isbn/9780816865796/

 

see also

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/78621-donald-thorpes-japanese-army-air-force-camouflage-and-markings-wwii/#elControls_862828_menu

 

 

 

 

I'd suggest the addition to use M8 for the inside of the UC doors may have come from a Tamiya instruction sheet,  as they specified Tamiya  X13 metallic blue or from the A6M5 fuselage section that was on display at the IWM for many years,  it was there in the late 70's when I went.

 

Be interesting to know when this was first suggested on the instructions.

 

Again, pics show on phone but not on here, likely a browser compatibility issue.

 

HTH

[Zephyr91]

25 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

 

https://www.igluemodels.com/post/aotake

 

Thanks Troy.   I particularly liked this link as the article didn't take itself too seriously whilst seeming to clearly set down the problem.

 

As usual, I really apprecatiate the time and effort you put in to try and educate we lesser mortals.  Thanks for sharing.

 

Rob

[PeterB]

Over the last few decades more information has become available about Japanese planes and their markings/colours but as always there are differences between sources. Back in 2000 Scale Aircraft Modelling International magazine ran a serious of 6 articles on Japanese aircraft colours and markings which, assuming it is reasonably accurate, is quite useful. They say that the "blue green" colour so beloved by Japanese manufacturers of kits, was a protective phenolic lacquer painted over bare metal as Troy says, and actually varied in colour between a strong blue to a "lettuce green". They also say that in areas where it would be more visible from the outside, like the cockpit, some arears were overpainted and that colours reported to have been used were "a non descript grey green, olive green, Khaki-ish green, and that an ochre like colour has also been mentioned". I am guessing that like the Germans, this painting was probably minimal near the end of the war, but as you are modelling an early Zero it is more likely to have been given the full treatment. The article goes on to say that the IP could be the same colour as the cockpit or even the exterior black-green, but could also be black or red/brown. The preserved A6M5 in the Smithsonian Museum looks like this apparently and is said to be accurate.

 

Of course this is a much later plane than yours.

 

Pete

[Zephyr91]

On 15/08/2024 at 11:41, tempestfan said:

If you want to go fully-nostalgic, you could look for the Aircam on the Zero

Apologies.  Just noticed this contribution, for which thanks.  I found this

 

https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Aircam-Aviation-Series/Mitsubishi-A6M1-2--2N-Zero-Sen/16-Mitsubishi-A6M-Zero-Sen-01-960

 

Interesting.  Again, useful to a "new starter" on things Zero.

 

I'm still continuing with the box scheme, but I might just have to try a more modern kit of this fascinating fighter at some stage.

 

 

Started on the canopy framing and got a coat of M13 applied on the undersides - seems I need to do some more with some of the seams . 

 

Regarding all those wonderful rivets, rather than remove them completely I have chosen to "de-emphasise" them and reduce them to a point where you cannot now file your nails on them .   In truth I think they wouldn't be there at all in 1/72 as the use of flush rivetting was one of the features of the finish of this (at the time) advanced aircraft.

 

Slightly off-piste but an interesting perspective I thought - one of my daughters noted this item available on Netflix

 

https://www.netflix.com/search?q=the wind rises  **

 

Apologies if you've seen it before.  A synopsis is included here

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wind_Rises

 

Thanks for looking

 

Rob

 

** - My wife enjoyed it but it's a bit of a tear-jerker at times.  Best to keep a box of tissues handy for your "other half" if they watch it with you

Edited August 20 by Zephyr91
adding extra info

[Zephyr91]

Wow!   Time flying by.  I haven't forgotten this build, just got distracted by other things like weather and worrying about various members of the family that went off camping at various festivals when storm Lilian hit!!    All OK thankfully and didn't experience the Leeds festival "flying tent" phenomenon .  

 

I have done a bit more despite distractions

 

 

The canopy framing is almost done .     I completed the main airframe colours using a flat brush as suggested by @Troy Smith which worked a lot better than my previous daubings.  Thanks for that.

 

Part way through doing the yellow leading edge strips. I'd forgotten these so faced the prospect of applying umpteen coats over the dark green.  But I think I've got away with 2 after trying Mr Finishing Surfacer 1500 PINK as a primer.

 

I applied a varnish coat and was rather surprised how dark the M17 Dark Green became.  It really does look a "black-green" and in some lights barely distinguishable from the cowling which is Xtracolour X012 Night Black!!

 

Will try and include a photo next time, but pleased with the experimental "Aotake" I've achieved in the wheel wells -  AK Metallic Dark Aluminium then, once dry, using kiddies felt pens green then blue.  As they are not "solid" colours the alu shows strongly through the patchy, turquoisey wash.    Well, I liked it . 

 

Back soon.  Thanks for looking.

 

Rob

[PeterB]

Looks good to me Rob.

 

I don't know if Airfix included decs for the stripes on the wheel doors?

 

 

Apparently these allowed the ground/deck crew to quickly check the loading of the plane before take-off. As the oleo extended/contracted it caused a "cursor" to move up and down against the "scale" painted on the upper wheel door which was fixed in position relative to the lower portion of the leg/door, thus allowing them to see if the plane was overloaded with fuel or whatever apparently, which could be a serious problem on a carrier, particularly one without a catapult. Not at all essential to your kit but adds a nice touch of detail/colour if you feel so inclined. I believe some planes had a simplified version of just red and blue and others just red.

 

Pete

Edited August 28 by PeterB

[Zephyr91]

2 hours ago, PeterB said:

I don't know if Airfix included decs for the stripes on the wheel doors?

Er......no.  And not on the paint scheme either.  Neither do they show warning stripes on the prop ......... but I've been looking at those.

 

Thanks for the info.  I love the simple presentation  of what can be quite complex engineering issues.  But the deck crew only need to know  "Green - Go", "Red - No Go", "Orange - Umpire's Call"  or whatever.  

 

I still take an interest in such things because, in my early aero career, I spent a year or more simulating and calculating undercarriage loads trying to take into account all the various factors and variables involved - then sifting it down to relatively simple flight clearance recommendations.   Happy days.

 

cheers

 

Rob

[PeterB]

3 hours ago, Zephyr91 said:

Er......no.  And not on the paint scheme either.  Neither do they show warning stripes on the prop ......... but I've been looking at those.

 

 

Hi Rob,

 

I can't guarantee that this is totally accurate but according to my sources here is the gen on props. Initially they were natural metal although the rear faces of the blades were painted black to reduce glare. There were two narrow red bands near the tip as shown below.

 

 

When the green top colour was introduced the two red bands seem to have been replaced by a single thicker one. In around 1944, the front of the prop blades and often the spinner was painted in "propeller colour" aka "tea colour", a sort of reddish brown and the single stripe became yellow. This is actually a preserved Shiden-Kai and to my eye the prop is not quite the right colour, but there are so few preserved Japanese planes, and nearly all have been refurbished/patched together from wrecks. I have seen pics of a preserved Ki-100 with black blades but suspect that is wrong.

 

 

Some planes like the Ki-84 had  greenish grey blades but most late IJNAF and IJAAF were in "tea colour". In some cases the yellow band was extended all the way to the tip as on Western planes - the RAF Museum Ki-46 Dinah has that type though again it is in a museum and may well have been repainted incorrectly.

 

Given the period your A6M2 is likely to have existed, I would suggest natural metal front and black rear of the blades, probably with a single thick red stripe of around the same appearance and in the same position as the yellow one above. Not sure about the spinner - possibly NMF or maybe black-green.

 

Incidentally, it may not be totally accurate but this site is quite useful.

https://www.ipmsstockholm.se/home/urbans-color-reference-charts-part-i/urbans-colour-reference-charts-japan/

 

Pete

Edited August 28 by PeterB

[Zephyr91]

Thanks again for all the useful info.   Hoarded for possible future use.

 

Regarding the prop, I've done the silver front / black rear blades with the 2 red stripes near the tip.   Working out whether I can get away with that or not as they are not the neatest stripes in the world.   Yellow spinner as per box for a bit more colour.

 

Meanwhile I decided to try the decals.  The first 2 went on ok

 

 

They've settled down ok amongst the rivets   although I notice a hint of yellowing around the edges in the photo .

 

OK.  Then came the disaster with the fuselage stripe.  It resisted strongly for ages my attempts to get it to sit in the right place.  When I eventually got the placement correct there was a slight nick on part of it that was near the top so very noticeable.  Fiddled and bodged it to what seemed an ok state.  I used plenty of Decalfix, which usually works for me, and left it over night.  Not good.  Still wrinkles not settled and the nick had become worse and started lifting.

 

So it had to go.  I've done D-Day stripes before.  I can paint these.   Good plan except when trying to remove the decal.   The bits that are stuck are so stuck I was almost ready to file them off 😱but resisted the temptation.  I was trying to preserve the paintwork underneath so started with water and decalfix.  Then moved on to IPA, but fearing to use anything stronger in case I took a load of paint off as well.

 

Hmmphh!  I ended up with this .....

 

 

I always wondered how people achieved the "extreme weathering" look.  Despite my efforts I've still managed to mess up most of the varnish on the rear fuse and tail, as well as remove some paint where the stripe was.  Curses!     This was supposed to be a quick build, especially as I now have a Spitfire to do and wanted to get this off the bench.

 

Walk away for an hour and take stock.

 

Thanks for looking.

 

Rob

[PeterB]

The green on Japanese Navy planes seems to have weathered very badly. Sources suggest a number of reasons - poor quality paint, poor application, poor preparation and so on, particularly nearer the end of the war when paint was probably in short supply. A few years back I did another Hasegawa Kate based on a photo of a plane taking part in the Indian Ocean raid not long after Pearl Harbor-

 

 I have never been sure if this was a deliberate partial repaint or just extreme weathering of a hasty and poor application of the green. Of course the maritime environment is particularly hard on paint. I have some of the Xtradecal coloured stripe dec sheets and may well have used them for the lines on the prop - I certainly used them for the yellow stripes on later planes. Bit fiddly but the end result is far better than attempts at painting them with my shaky hands! Incidentally, the green is from the old White Ensign Colourcoats range when they had different greens for different manufacturers - this is their take on "Nakajima Green". More recently it has been argued that the apparent variation in colour of the green was either just a figment of somebodies imagination or simply down to slight variations in batches of the normal green, perhaps from different paint manufacturers, in the same way that some claim the various shades of "Giallo and Verde Mimetico" on Italian planes was due to each plane manufacturer using a different paint supplier. Arguments about paint are as old as the hobby of modelling itself and will probably never be totally resolved in my lifetime.

 

Pete

[Zephyr91]

7 minutes ago, PeterB said:

Arguments about paint are as old as the hobby of modelling itself and will probably never be totally resolved!  in my lifetime.

Thanks Pete.   Brought a smile back to my face, but felt I needed to correct your sentence above

 

Rob

[Johnson]

On 8/20/2024 at 9:45 PM, Zephyr91 said:

got a coat of M13 applied on the undersides

 

Hi Rob,

Apologies for backtracking a bit - but what is the M13 paint you used for the underside? I'm embarking on a 'holiday build' Airfix Zero (the later one) and your colour looks good.

 

Charlie

[Troy Smith]

10 minutes ago, Johnson said:

but what is the M13 paint you used for the underside?

ancient Airfix Enamel.   M13 was light grey

 

 

[Johnson]

5 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

ancient Airfix Enamel.

 

Of course! 

 

Thanks Troy.

 

I'll have to find something else.

[Zephyr91]

On 31/08/2024 at 19:42, Johnson said:

 

Of course! 

 

Thanks Troy.

 

I'll have to find something else.

Apologies Charlie, I would have replied sooner but I was fixing a small "travel case" for when I went with the IPMS Lancs crew to yesterday's Stoke IPMS show at Stafford.   Thanks Troy @Troy Smith for answering.

 

 

Artist's foam board off-cuts, hot glued into the crate.  Very stable - just hope I can reconfigure for a different set .....

A modest contribution, but felt I needed to try and help the aircraft guys balance out the display with its myriad AFVs which took centre stage on the IPMS Lancs tables.  [Some wag suggested the club should be renamed IPMS Tanks ].   I'm newish to these shows, so still very much on a learning curve.  Mine are clearly not competition standard but didn't look totally out of place and I was well pleased when some chap from elsewhere took a while to photograph the D-Day pair.

 

Anyway, back to buisness.  I'm just masking and painting the fuselage stripe but no pics yet.  Hopefully later.

 

Thanks for looking.

 

Rob