Designing PE parts?

[Bozothenutter]

Hi,

 

Not quite 3D, but there is some overlap in the principles used.

Does anybody know of a good tutorial to design PE?

I can find my way around in Fusion and Gimp.

Can sheetmetal in Fusion produce files for etching, or does that still require 'hand' drawing?

I was thinking that Sheetmetal would help with virtually folding parts to check viability for example. 

[PeteH1969]

You can design PE in Fusion but not with the sheet metal tools as it will not work with thin metals.

 

You will need to model all of the parts the PE will be fitted to so you only design it once and it fits.

 

To be honest designing it is the easy part it's producing it that is the hard part when trying to do it at home.

 

It is more cost effective to diy the design and have it properly produced I ca recommend PPD for small numbers it's cost effective.

 

They have lots of info on how to design everything on there website.

 

Pete

[Bozothenutter]

On 7/13/2024 at 10:22 PM, PeteH1969 said:

You can design PE in Fusion but not with the sheet metal tools as it will not work with thin metals.

 

You will need to model all of the parts the PE will be fitted to so you only design it once and it fits.

 

To be honest designing it is the easy part it's producing it that is the hard part when trying to do it at home.

 

It is more cost effective to diy the design and have it properly produced I ca recommend PPD for small numbers it's cost effective.

 

They have lots of info on how to design everything on there website.

 

Pete

Thanks for the head up, before I keep trykng to do something that won't work.

I have found several PE producers, and they impart useful advice about tolerances with metal thicknesses. 

I'm more looking for info on how to spec things like etch depth etc, and of course what are the pitfalls of designing PE details.

[gunzo]

7 hours ago, Bozothenutter said:

I'm more looking for info on how to spec things like etch depth etc,

Generally speaking you have the two options of half or full etch, or in other words half the metal thickness or full removal. That said, the etcher can tweak etching bath immersion times to get less than half which can be useful for very fine detail or even three level etches, and the only way to explore that is to communicate with them directly to explore the options. Most are more than happy to help and advise in accord with their own practices.

[gunzo]

On 7/13/2024 at 12:04 PM, Bozothenutter said:

Does anybody know of a good tutorial to design PE?

The pretty comprehensive 'tutorial papers' of the now defunct Hollywood Foundry can still be found on the link below, but bear in mind these are a few years old and things do progress;

 

https://www.missendenrailwaymodellers.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Metal-Etching-Principles-and-Rules.pdf

 

The PPD suggestion has already been made.

[Niall]

I've used PPD to make PE for me. I used Serif's DrawPlus for the design, unfortunately they will not use that software. so I had to send a PDF of the overall design and separate PDF's for front and rear etched parts. They will do 1/4 etched parts so you can have detail on both sides of the PE.

 

Serif do a new vector drawing software to replace DrawPlus but I've not used it and don't know if PPD use it.

 

Photo of 1 of my designs for the Revell 1/72nd scale Flower Class kit that PPD make for me -

[Ben Brown]

If you don’t want to pay for vector software, Inkscape is a great freeware. You can export your designs in pdf if you want.
 

Ben

[Niall]

I've heard of Inkscape but I have not used it.

 

The way I did my designs was to do the entire design with not etched parts in black, front etched in red and rear etched in light blue. I copied this to 2 layers and made the unneeded parts changed to white, so I had a full pdf, 1 red parts pdf and 1 light blue parts pdf.

[TheBaron]

On 16/07/2024 at 13:13, Niall said:

I've used PPD to make PE for me.

Likewise. I worked with them on the PE for my Sea Vixen kit and they are great people to work with, plus there is excellent (illustrated) info on their sight about producing full and half etch, along with the tolerances for different thicknesses of metals.

On 13/07/2024 at 12:04, Bozothenutter said:

I was thinking that Sheetmetal would help with virtually folding parts to check viability for example. 

Exactly right - you just need to make sure that you have the thickness of the metal sheet in Fusion set to match the thickness of the metal sheet youll be using for the PE so that the folds will be accurate. Once unfolded to generate a flat pattern for the part in Fusion, export as a .dxf file to a vector graphics program like Illustrator which can read such files in order to produce the etch layouts. I found the tutorials on PPD's site invaluable for that stage of the process.

 

Hth,

Tony

 

 

 

[Bozothenutter]

PFFFFFFF.....turns out dimensions are buggy in Inkscape, and as it's not CAD software, working with them is not intuitive.

Anybody aware of any tutorials specifically for the creation of PE?

Having no experience in graphic design, I'm having a bit of trouble translating YT vids to something I can use.

 

#hobbyinception 😒

[theskits62]

I did my first custom PE sheet recently and used SVG-edit which is browser based (so no install). I got 4Dmodels to create the sheet for me. They have lots of info re thicknesses and tolerances etc on their webpage and most importantly they will check your design and flag issues before you commit to the actual process. Having gone through the process i will definitely  be using them for for all my future builds although i might try inkscape next time for the actual design.

 

https://modelshop.co.uk/Static/Workshop/Photo-Etching

 

 

 

 

[Bozothenutter]

Just tried Freecad, another disappointment...

It works on a coordinate system, not a problem, as most do. But.....it has no way of drawing a shape  like a rectangle with specified dimensions (as in Fusion sketch).

As I understand it,  it starts everything at origin, and then the next origin is wherevyou left off.....😵‍💫.

My brain is broken enough as it is.....

 

Next up QCad, which to me seems more intuitive....

If only Fusion sketch had layers.... (if it has, I can't find them)

[dnl42]

31 minutes ago, Bozothenutter said:

If only Fusion sketch had layers.... (if it has, I can't find them)

Couldn't you use sketches as layers in Fusion? I've edited sketches, too many times, and have started to deliberately edit sketches as I develop parts.

 

On 7/28/2024 at 1:30 AM, TheBaron said:

Exactly right - you just need to make sure that you have the thickness of the metal sheet in Fusion set to match the thickness of the metal sheet youll be using for the PE so that the folds will be accurate. Once unfolded to generate a flat pattern for the part in Fusion

Ooh, I need to try that!

[Noel Smith]

From what I have read so far it appears that many have been trying to use 3D design programs to draw up stuff for photo etched parts where a program for drawing in 2D would probably be much more suaitable.

There is a program named 2D Design made by a company named Techsoft that is quite easy to learn and use. I'm fact many of not most schools in the UK use it as part of their D&T curriculum. Their website is quite interesting to see what tech is being developed for schools. Also, maybe a son or daughter using it might have a copy of 2D Design on one of their devices.

Also, there is Autocad 2D that has been a standard industry used product for as long as I can remember. There may be free to use versions available. It is made by Autodesk who actually produce the Fusion 3D design program.I

 

The metal used for photo etched parts is so thin that there is no real need to use a 3D design program. Regardless of which is used, you the designer would have to decide where the bends would be in any case. The stretch of the metal whilst bending becomes irrelevant on such thin material, unlike thicker metals where bend allowances have to be subtracted from each bend in the calculation to allow for the stretching of the metal at each bend.

[Graham Boak]

There are many PE sheets which rely upon reduced depth at bend points and which work very well.  I would hate to attempt the bends in (say) a POL frame under WW2 lorries without their help.  I can see a large number of failed attempts or wonky results.  Trying to rebend errors inevitably results in broken PE.

[Noel Smith]

The reduced depth at bend points that Graham is referring to will probably be lines etched into the parts at those points to facilitate accurate angular bending. Bending radii has to be approached a bit differently and done over some sort of round former.

 

Although PE parts are normally either brass, nickel silver or stainless steel and quite resilient, trying to re bend parts incorrectly done eventually will result in metal fatigue breakage as Graham has already mentioned.

 

Nesting PE parts for maximum utilisation in the flat on a sheet is quite complex as all the parts with all the little cut off nibs for the user to remove the parts has to be designed into the layout for the chemical milling as it is also referred to take place. Drawing the individual parts in 3D will need each to be developed out into the flat in the program in order for each to be imported to nest on a sheet for photo etching and the cut off nibs added. There may possibly be a nesting program for producing sheets of PE parts to facilitate this process.

Edited November 29, 2024 by Noel Smith