Wingnuts Wings 1/32 Bristol F.2b - Capt Ross Smith - T.E. Lawrence

[Peter Browne]

Looking intently at doing Capt. Ross Macpherson Smith's (MC and bar, DFC and two bars with 11 kills - Australian Flying Corps) Bristol F.2b serial B1146 of No. 1 Sqn AFC in Palestine 1918.  Smith was a pilot for T.E. Lawrence in Palestine during the Arab Revolt.

 

Smith won the Great Air Race in a Vimy in 1919 flying from Great Britain to Australia in less than 28 days.  One of Australia's heroes.

 

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C974712

 

I have the WnW F.2 B (not the post war version...) and now looking for decals.

 

I found Aussie Decals set for this very aircraft sold by Novascale on eBay:

 

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/303502331572

 

But have heard mixed reports of Aussie/Novascale Decals being thin and fragile. Is there anything else? Or are these decals OK?  I would only need to use the aircraft serial and the dedication of the aircraft (eg as shown for the other Ross F.2 B decal from the Aussie Decals sheet in the image at the bottom)

 

Or I could do apparently his other F.2 B in Palestine.

 

https://hfcscone.org.au/bristol-fighter-afc-b1229/

 

 

https://digital.collections.slsa.sa.gov.au/nodes/view/5330

 

[Duggy]

Some original colour photos taken by Frank Hurley of the 1st Australian Flying Corps, in Palestine in 1918 can be seen here --  http://axis-and-allies-paintworks.com/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?id=18688

[wmcgill]

Four WWI AFC Bristol Fighter photos here too 

 

http://www.wingnutwings.com/ww/productdetail?productid=4&cat=1

 

 

[Admiral Puff]

Novascale tends to be a bit of a variable feast, but if you're only using the serials and dedication they should be OK with a coat of Micro Decal Film.

[Peter Browne]

@Duggy @wmcgill @Admiral Puff

 

Thanks.  

 

The autochrome photos are interesting, esp on the WnW link.  Those photos show the cowling in a paler green, instead of the battleship grey as usually shown on the F.2 B.  The cowling 'band'also appears painted, and not in natural brass.

[Peter Browne]

Perhaps a more accurate colour photo taken by Hurley... 

 

The fuselage is PC10 ().  But the cowl, radiator and radiator band?  I suspect the cowl is PC10 + white.

 

 

[Paul Lucas]

I don't know if this is relevant, but for a very short period in 1916 the cowls of the RFC's tractor aeroplanes were to be painted in 'dull service colour', that is described as a "mixture of green and brown". The earliest reference I have to this is dated 24 April 1916.

 

Just over a fortnight later, on 15 May 1916 the RFC in the Field changed its mind about this, and requested that the colour in future be "a dull grey." The letter then continued "Aeroplanes that are now painted with the mixture of green and brown commonly known as Service Colour need not be changed."

 

While the February 1918 date of the photograph is nearly two years later than the correspondence quoted, the correspondence does show that at one point, such a practice as painting cowlings some sort of 'khaki' colour did exist. Perhaps the RFC in Palestine continued to do this under local authority for some reason?

 

I have never seen a Standard for 'dull service colour', so I can't say what hue it might actually have been.

[PeterR]

 

I presume you are aware that there are three different F2Bs being referenced here?

 

B1146, the presentation aircraft quoted as B1129 and the other aircraft, B1229 that you have posted a photo of? And that the NovaScale decals don't match (serial) with the SA Library reference?

[Peter Browne]

2 hours ago, PeterR said:

 

I presume you are aware that there are three different F2Bs being referenced here?

 

B1146, the presentation aircraft quoted as B1129 and the other aircraft, B1229 that you have posted a photo of? And that the NovaScale decals don't match (serial) with the SA Library reference?

 

Yes, quite right.  I am looking at modelling Smith's B1146, as depicted in that last colour photograph, with the serial and presentation inscription from NovaScale.

[Peter Browne]

2 hours ago, Paul Lucas said:

 

...

 

While the February 1918 date of the photograph is nearly two years later than the correspondence quoted, the correspondence does show that at one point, such a practice as painting cowlings some sort of 'khaki' colour did exist. Perhaps the RFC in Palestine continued to do this under local authority for some reason?

 

I have never seen a Standard for 'dull service colour', so I can't say what hue it might actually have been.

 

Interesting.  Do you have a reference?

 

This is what ChatGPT 4.0 thinks:
 

Quote

 

Thank you for sharing the photograph. Based on the image, it looks like the engine cowl of the Bristol F.2B Fighter (also known as the "Brisfit") appears to be a lighter color compared to the rest of the aircraft. This is likely due to a few factors:

 

Natural Metal or Aluminum Dope: The lighter color of the engine cowl could be the result of it being left in its natural metal finish or painted with aluminum dope, which was commonly used to protect metal surfaces from corrosion. This would give it a lighter, more metallic appearance compared to the darker PC10 used on the fabric-covered parts of the aircraft.

 

Wear and Weathering: The conditions in the Middle East, such as intense sunlight and sand, could have caused the cowl to appear lighter over time. The photograph could be showing a weathered or worn version of the standard color.

Photographic Process: The photograph is noted to be a color Paget process by Frank Hurley, which might affect how colors are represented. Early color photographic techniques could sometimes distort or alter the appearance of colors, making them look different from their true shades.

 

Given these factors, the lighter color of the engine cowl in the photograph is likely due to it being in its natural metal state or painted with aluminum dope, which was a standard practice and part of the overall aircraft's finish. The rest of the aircraft follows the typical British WWI color scheme, with the upper surfaces in PC10 and the undersurfaces in a lighter shade, likely clear-doped linen (CDL).

...

 

The distinct and linear pattern on the engine cowl, as observed in the photograph, does indeed suggest the possibility of aluminum dope. Aluminum dope was used extensively during World War I to protect fabric-covered surfaces and metal parts of aircraft from the elements. It had a silvery, reflective appearance and was often applied to metal parts like engine cowls and struts.

 

Here are a few reasons why aluminum dope might have been used:

 

Corrosion Protection: Aluminum dope provided a layer of protection against corrosion, which was particularly important for metal parts exposed to the elements.

 

Heat Reflection: The reflective properties of aluminum dope helped to reflect sunlight, reducing the heat absorbed by the metal parts, which could be beneficial in hot climates like Palestine.

 

Durability: Aluminum dope was durable and provided a smooth finish that was easier to clean and maintain compared to fabric surfaces.

 

Given the distinct linear pattern and the context, it is very likely that the engine cowl was finished with aluminum dope. This would have been a standard practice and would explain the lighter, metallic appearance compared to the rest of the aircraft covered in PC10 and clear-doped linen.

 

I don't think it's from using aluminium dope on the cowl....I would imagine that might cause a fire on an engine cowl.

This is an example in the Shuttleworth Collection in the UK which has the same khaki cowl:

[Peter Browne]

The other question is aircraft in hotter climates I understand were painted in PC12, which was a reddish brown.  So is 1146 in PC10 or PC12?

 

I also note that the struts on  B1146 appear to be painted.  Any ideas?

 

[Paul Lucas]

@Peter Browne, the letter of 24 April 1916 is referenced as 'CRFC 2133Q' to Nos. 1, 2, 3, 4 Brigades and No.1 & 2 Aircraft Depots from DA & QMG in the Field. Enclosed within UK National Archives Piece No. AIR 1/867/204/5/523.

 

The letter of 15 May was sent from the same entity to the same list of recipients with the addition of No.9 Wing. Ibid.

 

Also on 15 May 1916, DA & QMG RFC on the Field also wrote to the Director of Aircraft Equipment at the War Office.

"It is requested that the cowls of all tractor machines and the nacelles of pusher machines may be sent out here painted a dull grey colour.

Steel undercarriages should also be painted the same colour, but not wooden ones like that of the Martinsyde."  Ibid.

 

On 20 May 1916 the reply to GOC RFC in the Field stated:

"With reference to your memo dated 15 May 1916, I am directed to inform you that instructions are being issued to all contractors, Royal Aircraft Factory and Chief Inspector, Aeronautical Inspection Dept. to have  the cowls of all tractor machines and the nacelles of all pusher machines, required for active service painted a dull grey colour in place of a dull service colour. Instructions have been issued for all steel undercarriages to be painted a dull grey colour." Ibid.

 

This dull grey colour eventually became known as 'Oil and Petrol Resisting Battleship Grey Paint' to BESA Specification X2 by late 1918.

In terms of modern colour, it corresponds to BS 381C No.632 Dark Admiralty Grey.

 

This is the colour that you see on the cowling of the Shuttleworth aircraft in the photo above, not 'service colour'.

 

Assuming that the colours in that photo have reproduced something like accurately, in my opinion it looks as though B1146 was finished in PC10.

[Peter Browne]

18 hours ago, Paul Lucas said:

@Peter Browne, the letter of 24 April 1916 is referenced as 'CRFC 2133Q' to Nos. 1, 2, 3, 4 Brigades and No.1 & 2 Aircraft Depots from DA & QMG in the Field. Enclosed within UK National Archives Piece No. AIR 1/867/204/5/523.

 

The letter of 15 May was sent from the same entity to the same list of recipients with the addition of No.9 Wing. Ibid.

 

Also on 15 May 1916, DA & QMG RFC on the Field also wrote to the Director of Aircraft Equipment at the War Office.

"It is requested that the cowls of all tractor machines and the nacelles of pusher machines may be sent out here painted a dull grey colour.

Steel undercarriages should also be painted the same colour, but not wooden ones like that of the Martinsyde."  Ibid.

 

On 20 May 1916 the reply to GOC RFC in the Field stated:

"With reference to your memo dated 15 May 1916, I am directed to inform you that instructions are being issued to all contractors, Royal Aircraft Factory and Chief Inspector, Aeronautical Inspection Dept. to have  the cowls of all tractor machines and the nacelles of all pusher machines, required for active service painted a dull grey colour in place of a dull service colour. Instructions have been issued for all steel undercarriages to be painted a dull grey colour." Ibid.

 

This dull grey colour eventually became known as 'Oil and Petrol Resisting Battleship Grey Paint' to BESA Specification X2 by late 1918.

In terms of modern colour, it corresponds to BS 381C No.632 Dark Admiralty Grey.

 

This is the colour that you see on the cowling of the Shuttleworth aircraft in the photo above, not 'service colour'.

 

Assuming that the colours in that photo have reproduced something like accurately, in my opinion it looks as though B1146 was finished in PC10.

 

I don't understand.  The colour of the cowls of the Shuttleworth and B1146 aren't grey, but a khaki type colour.

[Peter Browne]

Mmm, looks like the Shuttleworth cowling is grey:

 

 

 

[Peter Browne]

Another shot of B1146

[Paul Lucas]

@Peter Browne, the cowling of the Shuttleworth aircraft is grey. Try looking for other photos of it and see how the colour of the cowling varies from one photo to another. This is why I was careful to state both the 1918 Standard and modern equivalent of the design colour that was used for this purpose.

 

With regard to B1146, I think that the 'khaki' appearance of the cowling is due to the photographic reproduction process. I had to go away and look up the Paget Process because I was not familiar with it. It seems that its greatest drawback was that it was considered to have poor colour fidelity. Bearing this on mind and having spent more time looking at the photo of B1146, I think that the cowling was actually Battleship Grey, and the Paget Process did not capture the hue particularly well.

 

There is also the problem that in the case of the image posted here, we are looking at a copy that is probably several times removed from the original, and with each copy, the visible colours might shift ever further away from those originally captured.

 

We are also looking at it on a screen, the colour settings of which will vary to some degree from one device to another. This means that it is likely that the hue that I see on my screen is different to some degree from what you are seeing on yours, and that's before we take our individual perception of colour into account.

 

To sum up, I think that the colour reproduction in that photo is not accurate and that the cowling was actually Battleship Grey. That is the colour that it was supposed to be and in the absence of any documentary evidence to the contrary, that is the colour I would expect it to be.

 

While I've been typing this, you have posted another two photos. The first of these, of the Shuttleworth aircraft, illustrates the point I made about colour reproduction between different photos.

[Peter Browne]

@Paul Lucas  Yes, I think you are correct.  I can't find any evidence to confirm otherwise, so 'Battleship Grey' it is!

[stevehnz]

On 7/19/2024 at 9:02 PM, Peter Browne said:

This is an example in the Shuttleworth Collection in the UK which has the same khaki cowl:

 

On 7/20/2024 at 6:35 PM, Paul Lucas said:

To sum up, I think that the colour reproduction in that photo is not accurate and that the cowling was actually Battleship Grey.

My first thought looking at that photo is it was most likely at one of Shuttleworth's evening shows & it is picking up some colouration from a low sun, the angle of the strut shadow would seem to bear that out too imho.

Steve.

[MikeC]

12 hours ago, Peter Browne said:

Mmm, looks like the Shuttleworth cowling is grey:

 

 

 

I don't know how old your photo is, but the Shuttleworth Brisfit underwent an ovehaul in about 2020 and now carries the markings of B1162/F of 22 Sqn. The cowling is grey and the band behind the radiator natural brass. I can say this with some authority as I was looking at it only today. But here's a photo anyway. https://www.flickr.com/photos/ajw1970/51156301533

 

[Peter Browne]

On 7/21/2024 at 2:24 AM, MikeC said:

I don't know how old your photo is, but the Shuttleworth Brisfit underwent an ovehaul in about 2020 and now carries the markings of B1162/F of 22 Sqn. The cowling is grey and the band behind the radiator natural brass. I can say this with some authority as I was looking at it only today. But here's a photo anyway. https://www.flickr.com/photos/ajw1970/51156301533

 

 

Great photo thanks Mike!

[MikeC]

3 hours ago, Peter Browne said:

 

Great photo thanks Mike!

My pleasure, but just to clarify I merely found it and posted the link, I didn't take it - credit due to the photographer as specified at the link.  

[Brandy]

On 7/19/2024 at 1:40 PM, Peter Browne said:

The other question is aircraft in hotter climates I understand were painted in PC12, which was a reddish brown.  So is 1146 in PC10 or PC12?

 

I also note that the struts on  B1146 appear to be painted.  Any ideas?

 

PC10 and PC12 were used on the Western front. PC12 is not the same as the red brown used in tropical climates.

 

Ian

[Peter Browne]

12 hours ago, Brandy said:

PC10 and PC12 were used on the Western front. PC12 is not the same as the red brown used in tropical climates.

 

Ian

 

What was used in the tropical climates, eg in Palestine?

 

[Paul Lucas]

16 hours ago, Brandy said:

PC10 and PC12 were used on the Western front. PC12 is not the same as the red brown used in tropical climates.

 

Ian

 

4 hours ago, Peter Browne said:

 

What was used in the tropical climates, eg in Palestine?

 

In addition to @Peter Browne's question, may I ask what your sources are please?

[Brandy]

PC12 was usually the RNAS preference, with PC10 as the RFC choice. The tropical protection was, as far as I know, referred to as AMAPDT (AMA Protective Dope Tropical) and was a much darker, redder colour as shown on the Shuttleworth Bristol M.1. 

I don't have any references that I'll be able to find quickly, but have never seen references to aircraft in Mediterranean or Middle East service as being PC12, only Tropical, so have to assume they were not the same. That would make sense as far more protection from the heat would be required for those aircraft 

 Having said that, at the end of the day, I don't think anyone can prove anything as most were made up on site and the colours varied anyway.

 

Ian