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P-51B "Miss Lace"


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I will soon start the painting of an Arma Hobby P-51B, but I'm not sure how I will paint the section in front of the windscreen. In most profile pictures and paintings of this aircraft, the cowling itself is ow course blue, part the part next to the windscreen is depicted as being olive drab. Foxbot tells you to paint in olive drab as well. The only period photo I can find is this: https://www.starduststudios.com/don-mckibben.html

There is maybe a slight different between the sections, but I am a bit sceptical why would it be in olive drab, if all other fighters in 352nd fighter group seem to have totally blue cowlings. What do you think? Are there any blue nosed mustangs that you know with olive drab sections?

 

I would also appreciate if someone who has built many Arma Hobby 1/72 Mustangs could help me with some advice how to improve the fit of the tail section. I'm now doing a double build, and have previously built one, and in all of the three builds the fit of  tail parts is not that good, there are steps and gaps. I know that there is some imperfections in the moulds that cause some of the issues. But if someone has managed to get the parts to fit as well as the rest of the kit, please could you share what you have done. I hope their P-51D is better in this area, and also has finer sprue gates like the new 1/48 P-39. And less of them.

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Looking at the Black & white photo at the bottom of your link. My bet would be the way the paint was reflecting light caused someone to misdiagnose the color ? If I was betting $ Im going to say it’s all blue. Or a 2nd choice would be that the panel around the windscreen was not painted yet or it was a replacement. 

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1 hour ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Or a 2nd choice would be that the panel around the windscreen was not painted yet or it was a replacement. 

I was also thinking that as a possibility. But even in that case it would have been repainted in blue. My guess is that the origin of the olive drab interpretation is a profile drawing in some modelling book. 

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Initially the 352FG had only blue nose and nose band, which shortly after was pulled back to the cockpit in the well known fashion. It may well be that the supposed green area just in front of the cockpit was left green as in the original antiglare stripe. 

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1 hour ago, Boman said:

Initially the 352FG had only blue nose and nose band, which shortly after was pulled back to the cockpit in the well known fashion. It may well be that the supposed green area just in front of the cockpit was left green as in the original antiglare stripe. 

Correct, here's P-51 Mustang (PZ-S, serial number 43-6500) of the 486th Fighter Squadron, 352nd Fighter Group parked at a dispersal area at Bodney airbase.

P-51_Mustang_(PZ-S_serial_number_43-6500

 

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3 hours ago, Duggy said:

Correct, here's P-51 Mustang (PZ-S, serial number 43-6500) of the 486th Fighter Squadron, 352nd Fighter Group parked at a dispersal area at Bodney airbase.

Here the contrast between anti-glare olive drab and blue is really stark. When I compare to other 486th Squadron P-51B I found, The Flying Scot II, Ellie and Texas Bluebonnet, there's absolutely no contrast in them. PZ-S maybe has a lighter shade of blue than the others, or it's really faded. I don't know anything about B&W photograph, would it be possible that olive drab and blue look almost identical?

Here's one photo where the contrast between blue and the olive drab of the fuselage is discernible

.https://www.americanairmuseum.com/archive/aircraft/43-6506 If it's true what I've read this earlier Bodney blue is lighter than the later.

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Posted (edited)

But here's something that puzzles me. on this forum ww2aircraft.net  someone implies that there was "Terry and the Pirates" written (or maybe nose art) on the left side.

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/reference-thread-352nd-fg-the-blue-nose-sweethearts-of-bodney.23248/page-3

If I understand correctly. Was Miss Lace one of the characters in Terry and the Pirates comic strip? Does there exist a photo of a PZ-Y port side? In any case Foxbot doesn't have anything expect the pin-up. 

 

Edited by TheKinksFan
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Yes,

Miss Lace was a Milton Caniff character drawn for the cartoon strip Terry and the Pirates, Airfix’s original B-17G from the ‘60s featured her as well.

 

Added: for some reason your last link keeps taking me back to the beginning of this topic.

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40 minutes ago, Chuck1945 said:

Yes,

Miss Lace was a Milton Caniff character drawn for the cartoon strip Terry and the Pirates, Airfix’s original B-17G from the ‘60s featured her as well.

 

Added: for some reason your last link keeps taking me back to the beginning of this topic.

Thank you for the confirmation. Isn't it so that the the new Airfix B-17G has the wrong waist gunner positions for Miss Lace? 

 

I don't know what went wrong with the link, now it's working. 

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Miss Lace wasn't a character in Terry and the Pirates, but in another Caniff-drawn comic strip, Male Call, which he drew for distribution to newspapers issued for US forces. He had started out doing a version of Terry and the Pirates for these newspapers featuring one of the regular female characters from the strip called Burma, but the company that syndicated the Terry strip got complaints from local newspapers in the USA that they had exclusive rights to the strip in their areas. Caniff started Male Call to replace the forces version of Terry, and introduced Lace as a replacement for Burma.

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Hello,

there is a photo of P-51 B Miss Lace in Larry Davis' book P-51 Mustang (squadron/signal). The panel in front of windshield is clearly in different, slightly darker colour. Cheers

Jure

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2 hours ago, Jure Miljevic said:

Hello,

there is a photo of P-51 B Miss Lace in Larry Davis' book P-51 Mustang (squadron/signal). The panel in front of windshield is clearly in different, slightly darker colour. Cheers

Jure

Thank you very much, with your help I found that photo too, on page 35. Like you say it's very clear it's darker. From another angle it's not obvious at all. It's interesting how some aircraft in 352nd FG have all blue cowlings and some not. 

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On 6/8/2024 at 11:40 PM, TheKinksFan said:

Thank you very much, with your help I found that photo too, on page 35. Like you say it's very clear it's darker. From another angle it's not obvious at all. It's interesting how some aircraft in 352nd FG have all blue cowlings and some not. 

Hello just a comment: the dark area is not uniform and many parts of it seem to be the same blue as the cowling. I'd suggest that the dark area is just dirty or retouched

spacer.png

Edited by steh2o
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12 minutes ago, steh2o said:

Hello just a comment: the dark area is not uniform and many parts of it seem to be the same blue as the cowling. I'd suggest that the dark area is just dirty or retouched

Knowing that some aircraft in the 352nd FG have this panel left in olive drab, I tend to think it's quite obvious it's olive drab. It just has faded and worn patches. There's a noticeable difference between the two sections, along the panel line where the edge of blue and OD is, so in this case there's no doubt it being OD. Another thing is, if that panel later was repainted in blue.

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Hello again,

hope to provide you some more information and help in your choice!

Here the same photograph of Miss Lace with comments, coming from the two reference books The Bluenosed Bast...s of Bodney and Bluenoser Tales

  1. I added for comparison a photograph of WILLIAMS VILLAIN the only 352nd machine that I can suspect having a residual green antiglare in front of the windscreen and a full length blue cowling (other photographs being rather ambiguous)spacer.png

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WILLIAMS VILLIAN - note contrast of Light Blue and OD antiglare

 

spacer.png

 

Troy White choose a discoloured blue antiglare with green nuance visible- a possibility, even if known cases of discolouring shows more often flaking of the paint.

spacer.png

 

Last info (coming from Bluenoser Tales): Miss Lace and Terry and the Pirates references are both for the right side: Miss Lace comes from Caniff's strip "Male Call", while the Dragon Lady comes from Caniff's "Terry and the pirates". According to McKibben, the a/c was always parked with Bodney's wood on the left side, so artwork was painted only on the right side facing the airdrome!

 

 

Edited by steh2o
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14103066_590674807783735_113235576684648

 

Another interesting photograph: there are at least two photographs showing PZ-S at Debden, in the same time frame as the pic above, and sincerely I can't see a clear evidence of a green anti-glare as suggested above. As usual, could have been so, but evidence is scarce

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Thanks for the photos @steh2o, I received the email notification just now on Friday 🤨, the notification system is working worse and worse. In the meantime I have already done the painting, I chose OD, but you are right it's possible know for certainty. But I find the OD most likely. What would otherwise explain the difference in shade, why would that one panel be different, not in just one aircraft, but several. And I don't think we should interpret the BW photos so that we expect all Olive Drabs to look look as dark, or all blues as light in every photograph. OD could look quite dark in one photo and much lighter in another. IMHO what counts is the difference in shade between that panel and the rest of the cowling. There's a photo of PZ-S earlier on this thread, and there is quite a big contrast, if in other photos there isn't that could of course mean that the final bit is over sprayed with blue.

 

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Hello! Really it's up to you because no color photographs of that particular plane emerged 'til now (perhaps Sam Sox jr. has some hidden in his drawers!).

For the sake of historical accuracy tough, I just wanted to point out that an OD panel would have been a rarity for 352nd ships with full-cowling Group marking and the photo of WILLIAMS VILLIAN above is the only clear occurrence of an anomaly to my knowledge. Why we see tonal variation in that area? We know that it houses the hydraulic fluid reservoir and is a maintenance-subject area; that in the -B it is touched by the exhaust plume; and that is one of the areas where crew members would lean on for f.a.e. assisting the pilot or cleaning the windscreen. Perhaps these are not the reasons behind discolouring but, as I said before, this is 80 years in the past now and possibly we'll never know the truth.

Nobody will criticize the OD panel there (even Osprey's profile in Aviation Elite n.8 depict it so 😄) it is really open to interpretation, but for sure it was not common practice

Ciao! Happy modelling!

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