dalea Posted February 24 Posted February 24 Since I have the plastic in front of me, I can assure you that all the wingtips appear to be square-cut. (Add your own indentations if desired.) Was not the British (hem-hem) rebuild connected with the H.M.S. Fidelity fiasco?
Ed Russell Posted February 24 Posted February 24 4 hours ago, dalea said: H.M.S. Fidelity had Kingfishers. I nearly modelled one but went for HMS Cilicia's instead. https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234998616-hms-cilicias-kingfisher/
New Tool Posted February 24 Posted February 24 20 hours ago, matford said: Unfortunately (as mentioned above) that is the only surviving photo. The nose art is Donald Duck getting angry trying to catch a butterfly with a net. from FlyPast april or june 2007? https://www.key.aero/forum/historic-aviation/146018-digging-up-an-old-query-mystery-floatplane-that-might-be-a-besson-mb411 That was definitely not easy to see. So how do you know that it was depicting Donald Duck trying to catch a butterfly with a net? Or was it an inspired guess? 1
Dave Fleming Posted February 27 Posted February 27 On 23/02/2025 at 23:00, Ed Russell said: It does seem odd that what looks like a considerable UK rebuild effort (upper fairing, new tail, possibly different wingtips - but they look the same as HS 73 picture to me) would be put into modifying such a one-off aircraft. The cited link brings up the possibilites of Photoshop but it seems too elaborate for that. Mysteries! Edit - Most photos show square wing tips but HS 73 picture are rounded. https://www.passionair1940.fr/Aeronavale-1939-40/Aeronavale/Appareils/Hydravions-Embarques/Besson-MB411/EN-Besson-MB411.htm The box-art picture has a bit each way and seems to show the starboard curved wing tip but the port wingtip seems to be removed in flight! I don’t think HS73 had rounded wingtips. I think that’s just the angle of the photo making the wing camber look like a curved tip. 2
Graham Boak Posted February 27 Posted February 27 Agreed. Not sure "fiasco" was the right word above.
Ed Russell Posted February 27 Posted February 27 9 hours ago, Dave Fleming said: I think that’s just the angle of the photo making the wing camber look like a curved tip. I think you are right. That explains the RN one too. If so, the roundels are painted at the very end of the wing.
matford Posted February 27 Posted February 27 The RN one definitely has altered wings with hand holds and lights added. Will scan the photo in FlyPast to see if it looks any clearer.
oggy4u Posted February 28 Posted February 28 I think the British, also added, a working rudder to the main float.
Dave Fleming Posted February 28 Posted February 28 I corresponded with the owner of the original photo, and he sent me a hi-res scan of it, but I cannot find it and fear it has been lost in the various machine moves over the years
JWM Posted February 28 Posted February 28 (edited) On 2/27/2025 at 2:43 PM, Dave Fleming said: I think that’s just the angle of the photo making the wing camber look like a curved tip. Then the other wing wingtip would be just straight and it is not, I am sorry to say... Edited February 28 by JWM
Dave Fleming Posted March 3 Posted March 3 On 28/02/2025 at 21:43, JWM said: Then the other wing wingtip would be just straight and it is not, I am sorry to say... Was talking about tis picture, which I think is the one Ed was referring to. There is no doubt in my mind the rebuilt one had curved wing tips I have seen it claimed this photo was taken in the UK, but I'm not sure that's English on the sign behind 1
Graham Boak Posted March 3 Posted March 3 Defense de fumer. Definitely not English. The grab handles are visible on one of the photos with Aeronavale markings, so not added by the British. I cannot see rounded wingtips just that thick aerofoil, but the far wingtip does appear to have something very short sticking up - possibly the grab handle? However what is more convincing is to ask why the British would take that much effort over someone else's aircraft with no spares and no future. 1
JWM Posted March 3 Posted March 3 I agree with you about the rebuild. I have found once that airplane (or both of them?) was (were?) send back to factory in 1936 (from what I recall by heart) and returned with some adments... The straight wingtip cut off was producing a lot of air drag so adding a small additions curving it is very possible. J-W
Graham Boak Posted March 3 Posted March 3 So there was a French rebuild not a British one. That makes much more sense, but photographic evidence showing it in French service after this would be helpful. There may have been more in an old Avions issue which sadly I've just thrown out. Extending the wingtips in any way would have produced problems in storage, as presumably they had been designed to take the maximum advantage in the first place.
JWM Posted March 3 Posted March 3 the history of airplane from Russian web page http://www.airwar.ru/enc/other1/mb411.html, Google translation: The Besson MB.411 reconnaissance floatplane was designed specifically for deployment on the submarine Surcouf. It inherited much from the previous aircraft of this type, the MB.35 Passe-Portu, also designed by Marcel Besson. An order for the prototype MB.410-01 was issued on August 24, 1932. This aircraft was equipped with a Salmson 9NC radial air-cooled engine with a power of 130 hp. However, the first prototype was destroyed in 1933 during official acceptance tests in Saint-Raphael. A second prototype was ordered, but due to the liquidation of Marcel Besson's company, the aircraft was built by ANF-Les Mureaux under the designation MB.411. The MB.411, which took off for the first time at Les Mureaux in June 1935, differed from the first model in that it had a Salmson 9ND engine with 175 hp and a mixed construction. The aircraft was designed for storage in a cylindrical hangar with a diameter of 2 m and a length of 7 m, located behind the conning tower of the submarine "Surcouf". At the same time, its rapid disassembly was envisaged. Assembly required only four minutes from the moment the MB.411 was removed from the hangar. The aircraft was launched into the water and lifted from it by crane. In August 1935, the MB.411 passed the official acceptance tests and was transferred to the Surcouf for trial operation. During the voyage on the Surcouf in the last months of 1935, it became clear that some changes were needed to the design. In early 1936, the floatplane was returned to the factory. Originally a single-seater, the MB.411 was redesigned to accommodate a crew of two. At the end of May, the aircraft was tested with a weight increased to 1,020 kg. After the tests, the aircraft was returned to Surcouf. On June 11, 1936, the French Admiralty requested a second MB.411. The order for it was issued on February 10, 1937. In July, when the first aircraft successfully completed all tests, it was under construction. One of the MB.411s was on board Surcouf when she sailed from Brest to Plymouth on 18 June 1940. The aircraft made a number of flights to the port of Poole in Dorset. It was later slightly damaged during a German air raid on Plymouth, where the floatplane had been stored after being unloaded from Surcouf. The aircraft was not on board when the boat left Plymouth on 10 May 1941. Surcouf was later sunk in a collision with an American merchantman in the Caribbean. One MB.411 remained in England with some modifications (a closed canopy was added), and in this form the aircraft served in 765 Squadron RNAS. The fate of the aircraft remaining in France is unknown List of reference given there: Aviation collection 10. Aviation in the Second World War. Airplanes of France Aviafrance. Un siècle d'aviation francaise. Besson MB-411 LSCasey,J.Batchelor. The Illustrated History of Seaplanes and Flying Boats K. Munson. Flying Boats and Seaplanes since 1910 Les ailes francaises. Marcel Besson MB411 Avions 83. Malcolm Passingham. Les Hydroavions Embarques sur Sous-marins Le Fana de l'Aviation 1996-01. Alain Marchand, Claude Huan. "Passe-Partout" l'avion du sous-marin L'Ala d'Italia 1934-03. Cronache aviatorie di tutto il mondo L+K 1989-10. Vaclav Nemecek. Besson MB-411 Any of above articles available? Regarrds J-W 1
JWM Posted March 3 Posted March 3 Googling I have found in net below photo which looks like taken from a journal/book? I am publishing it only for discussion: So if it is a photo from 1941 and here the wing tip looks rather like a sharp cut off (rectangle) but here With the same airplane it looks rounded (the anchor shows how the air foil curvature will curve the view end of wing, it is far more curved here). But here also tailplane (stabilizer) is rounded and in kit I think it is a rectangle looking from top. I have found a bit better quality take of FAA MB 411. 1
JWM Posted March 3 Posted March 3 (edited) I have found one more set of photos. http://ecole.nav.traditions.free.fr/pdf/camard_dossier.pdf Open this document and on page 5 there is another take of MB 411 on board of submarine, taken in UK in 1940 where the wing tip is clearly seen and it is straight, not trace of any curve!!! I am completely puzzled... Regards J-W Edited March 3 by JWM
JWM Posted March 3 Posted March 3 p.s. I have this book or rather booklet Inside there are drawings for MB 411 No 2 (HS.73) with rounded tailplane/stabilizers but rectangle wingtips... Regards J-W 3
matford Posted March 7 Posted March 7 (edited) April 2007 June 2007 https://i.imgur.com/VaDYxBS.jpeg from 1939: Edited March 7 by matford 1
Dave Fleming Posted March 10 Posted March 10 On 07/03/2025 at 14:44, matford said: April 2007 June 2007 Thanks! I think it was Chris who sent me a copy of the scan. April 2007 does correlate to my loss of sent emails
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