Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-10 or K-4 painted in white allover?

[dov]

Hallo

 

@Werdna, you are correct, the Sonderkommando Elbe was no suicide operation.

This part, exactly is, what Hajo Hermann checked all before in fully detail.

The book: Bewegtes Leben

It is further interesting to get a glimpse on the purpose and consideration of the effect of such an attack.

The consideration was, with some operation like this, to rise the loss rate of the USAAF to a real harsh limit.

To undermine the fighting spirit to the outmost. With a threefold attack of 100 aircraft each, this was the goal.

@Milos Gazdic, you maybe correct, it make sense to use overall RLM 76 for top cover units.

Is there any proof?

 

Happy modelling

[SafetyDad]

I think it's the Bf 109K prototype, built by Erla. WNF. I'm away from my books, but I'll look for confirmation.

 

Or a repaired late G being tested at Erla - they used overall very light primer on completion of repairs'

 

SD

[Super Aereo]

Merrick mentions monochrome Bf 109's in the escort role on page 163 of volume 1 of "Luftwaffe Camouflage and Markings 1933-1945"

[GiampieroSilvestri]

Here is a picture of a Messerschmitt Bf 109 painted in RLM 76 allover.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 22 by GiampieroSilvestri

[Milos Gazdic]

It doesn't look way too different in colour from what we see on the previous page. Please note that this photo posted now is shot under an overcast day with the soft shadows while the other two shots are under more harsh light rendering even same tones "brighter" in general.

[SafetyDad]

Mystery solved!

 

 

From Messerschmitt Bf 109 At War. A chapter called 'Repairing the Bf 109' covering the activites of the Erla repair shop

 

 

The aircraft were painted in overall 76, with the initial of the surname of the test pilot roughly chalked onto the fuselage behind the Balkenkreuz. The first photo is overexposed, preventing us from seeing the initial, but here is another shot with the F for Hans Fay as the pilot

 

 

 

HTH

 

SD

[Phoenix44]

32 minutes ago, SafetyDad said:

Mystery solved!

 

 

From Messerschmitt Bf 109 At War. A chapter called 'Repairing the Bf 109' covering the activites of the Erla repair shop

 

 

The aircraft were painted in overall 76, with the initial of the surname of the test pilot roughly chalked onto the fuselage behind the Balkenkreuz. The first photo is overexposed, preventing us from seeing the initial, but here is another shot with the F for Hans Fay as the pilot

 

 

 

HTH

 

SD

That's good stuff but that wing isn't in RLM76!

[Jochen Barett]

On 21/05/2024 at 11:31, Jochen Barett said:

I'd call the vehicle a "Somua MCG5 missing the frontal external fuel drum or something like that" until being disproven.

The book mentions a Citroën-Kégresse, so maybe we need the help of an expert to decide on "Somua or Citroën-Kégresse Zgkw Ci 301 (f)".

 

Please check for yourself (it looks quite quaint!)

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citroën-Kégresse_P17

 

Von Klaus Nahr from Germany - ICCCR 2012 Harrogate 1350 Citroen Kegresse, CC BY-SA 2.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=34617623

[GiampieroSilvestri]

The light blue used by Erla but not photograhed at the factory in Leipzig but at a Reparaturwerk in Belgium.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

[GiampieroSilvestri]

9 minutes ago, Jochen Barett said:

The book mentions a Citroën-Kégresse, so maybe we need the help of an expert to decide on "Somua or Citroën-Kégresse Zgkw Ci 301 (f)".

 

Please check for yourself (it looks quite quaint!)

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citroën-Kégresse_P17

 

Von Klaus Nahr from Germany - ICCCR 2012 Harrogate 1350 Citroen Kegresse, CC BY-SA 2.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=34617623

Eher ein Somua als der oben abgebildete Citroen.Das Schleppfahrzeug ist Kastenförmiger.

 

More a Somua than the Citroen pictured above.

 

Gruss

 

Giampiero

Edited May 22 by GiampieroSilvestri

[SafetyDad]

32 minutes ago, Phoenix44 said:

That's good stuff but that wing isn't in RLM76!

 

I'll certainly give you that.

 

I wondered if the fuselage was 02, rather than 76, but I was simply summarising the captions offered in the book.

 

SD

[Tigerausfb]

Can't really tell from the first photo but the MCG or Zugkraftwagen S 307(f) has a much larger front sprocket compared to the idler and the track slopes down front to rear. The P17s sprocket and idler are roughly the same size. I have got Every Boys Wonder Book of Der Beute Rad und Halbkettenfahrzeuge somewhere....but yeah, can't find it. Likely the ex-Mrs took it.

 

Andrew

[Shorty84]

1 hour ago, Phoenix44 said:

That's good stuff but that wing isn't in RLM76!

That photo is must be from the early war period as this is for sure a Bf 109E. Look at the full length landing flaps, wing root and nose/prop and style of the crosses. So it is possible that there were different rules at that time for certain components.

 

Cheers

Markus

[dov]

Hallo

With the words from @SafetyDad, I can now conclude, that aircrafts, Bf-109, for special operations were quickly collected. From Ausbesserungswerke, overhaul companies,  since the German burocratic procedure at these days was qicker. In opposition to the brand new from the assembling factory. So  this could be the reason why the a/c for Elbe, many looked like RLM 76 painted.

Thank you for this imput.

Happ, modelling 

 

 

 

[Jochen Barett]

1 hour ago, Tigerausfb said:

Can't really tell from the first photo but the MCG or Zugkraftwagen S 307(f) has a much larger front sprocket compared to the idler and the track slopes down front to rear. The P17s sprocket and idler are roughly the same size. I have got Every Boys Wonder Book of Der Beute Rad und Halbkettenfahrzeuge somewhere....but yeah, can't find it. Likely the ex-Mrs took it.

 

Andrew

I'm not sure what I see, and the Wikipedia text for https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/SOMUA_MCG suggests "Hierbei wurde das Kettenlaufwerk des Citroën-Kégresse P14 mutatis mutandis übernommen und in ein eigenes Fahrgestell mit stärkerem Motor eingebaut." google translates that into "The track drive from the Citroën-Kégresse P14 was adopted mutatis mutandis and installed in its own chassis with a more powerful engine." (and I googled "mutatis mutandis" to mean "'all necessary changes having been made' or 'with the necessary changes'".

 

I don't insist on being right with my Somua shot from the hip, the book may be right too.

 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d1/1933_Citroën_P17_Kégresse_(fr).jpg

 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/Somua_MCG_with_PaK_40_in_north_italy.jpg

 

Let's just agree upon "some French halft track" and fight harder over RLM 76, "white", "off white primer", "night fighter white", "accidentally used Schnellboot-Weiß". "Belgium paint looted", "my co-workers son in law's haircutter's friend used to know a ...  in ... who had a book/photograph of a 109 in ... / worked at ...", "maybe it was taken on orthochromatic film", and so on.

 

Some of the 109s in the book shown above have "regular" "G6 style" MG131 bulges and the one with the "F" is showing a hint of a rectangular 109E air intake and 109E4 canopy framing.

 

The "Here is a picture of a Messerschmitt Bf 109 painted in RLM 76 allover." 109 has canopy framing in 76 (not 66) and a spiral on the spinner. 109-Experts should comment on the oil cooler and fuel and oli filler and ring antenna position and the absence of chin bulges.

[SafetyDad]

1 hour ago, Jochen Barett said:

 

Let's just agree upon "some French halft track" and fight harder over RLM 76, "white", "off white primer", "night fighter white", "accidentally used Schnellboot-Weiß". "Belgium paint looted", "my co-workers son in law's haircutter's friend used to know a ...  in ... who had a book/photograph of a 109 in ... / worked at ...", "maybe it was taken on orthochromatic film", and so on.

 

 

Thanks Jochen. You made me smile with that 

 

SD

[Milos Gazdic]

9 hours ago, Phoenix44 said:

That's good stuff but that wing isn't in RLM76!

Maybe they didn't do any repairs on the wings?

 

Quote

 

From Messerschmitt Bf 109 At War. A chapter called 'Repairing the Bf 109' covering the activites of the Erla repair shop

 

 

One by: Armand Van Ishoven?

[SafetyDad]

2 hours ago, Milos Gazdic said:

One by: Armand Van Ishoven?

 

Yes Milos, this one

 

 

And my apologies to Armand, I should have cited my reference source more completely than I did.

 

SD

[MDriskill]

23 hours ago, Milos Gazdic said:

It doesn't look way too different in colour from what we see on the previous page. Please note that this photo posted now is shot under an overcast day with the soft shadows while the other two shots are under more harsh light rendering even same tones "brighter" in general.

And I would add, Jerry Crandall's books convincingly show that 76 became significantly lighter in tone late in the war. Combined with the exposure of the photo in the original post, that may explain the very low contrast with the white parts of the fuselage cross, also the "disappearance" of white upper wing crosses.

Edited May 23 by MDriskill

[Jochen Barett]

On 21/05/2024 at 16:13, GiampieroSilvestri said:

A internet search for Messerschmitt Bf 109 K-4 came up with this picture.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

I'm no 109 expert, but as far as I have heard and read, the K's fuel filler position was one "Spant" (fuseage frame / panel) further forward than on the G, so the ring antenna (when mounted) was mounted one "Spant" further back.

[Mycapt65]

5 hours ago, Jochen Barett said:

I'm no 109 expert, but as far as I have heard and read, the K's fuel filler position was one "Spant" (fuseage frame / panel) further forward than on the G, so the ring antenna (when mounted) was mounted one "Spant" further back.

That's true. I tried to point that out a page ago. Its not a K.

 

Also for the others. Wings came prepainted from subcontractors as did tails, rudders, stabilizers and a myriad of other parts. If that light colored fuselage airframe had to be rebuilt with new wings they'd come painted.