Bf109K-4 'black 12' questions/discussion

[Werdna]

Hi all - I've just started on a Hasegawa 1/32 K-4, which I'm planning to finish as 'Black 12' - pictured below, but also discussed within a previous K-4 thread on BM, which also contains a few more pics from one of the JaPo books (courtesy of @SafetyDad), including a colour image taken from the front.

 

 

 

 

 

Colour call out on the from JaPo is dark green (referred to as '83') and RLM 75 over 76, but the pics show an unusually 'plain' tail assembly which is also thought to be 75, but with a contrasting 'flash' at the top. So I guess there are two questions from that:

 

1. Are there any other examples of 'plain' K-4 (or even G-10 etc) tails?  Most, as far as I'm aware, were supplied as pre-painted (mottled) sub-assemblies so rarely matched the colours or pattern on the rest of the fuselage.  This one, however, has either been over-painted, or co-incidentally supplied in a finish that happens to match the rest of the a/c.

2. The 'flash' colour is given by JaPo as dark green, but realistically it could be a number of different colours. In the pic above, it appears (to me) as marginally darker than the 'supposed' dark green on the fuselage.  As an attempt at camo, it doesn't seem to achieve much, so I'm wondering whether it might be some kind of recognition marking instead?  If that's the case, then different colours (eg red, blue, etc) might become relevant.  Alternatively, is anyone aware of any similar tail markings on other a/c?

 

Thanks for reading - looking forward to any replies  

 

 

 

 

 

[Jens]

The supposedly dark green area on the rudder *could* be shade cast from a wing of another aircraft. It would take pictures of the area to rule out that option.
I don't think I have seen that on other fins/rudders, not does it make any sense. 

 

Jens

[GiampieroSilvestri]

It may be silly but I think that the"flash"is the rudder of the aircraft inclined to the left.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

Edited May 19 by GiampieroSilvestri

[Werdna]

1 hour ago, Jens said:

The supposedly dark green area on the rudder *could* be shade cast from a wing of another aircraft. It would take pictures of the area to rule out that option.
I don't think I have seen that on other fins/rudders, not does it make any sense. 

 

Jens

 

1 hour ago, GiampieroSilvestri said:

It may be silly but I think that the"flash"is the rudder of the aircraft inclined to the left.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

 

If you scroll down into the other thread I linked to, you can see there are pictures taken from a different perspective and presumably at a different time, with the 'flash' in precisely the same position.  I imagine JaPo would have considered this too - and dismissed it for the same reason.

[Super Aereo]

Poruba changed his interpretation of colours in the later book "Messerschmitt Bf 109s of KG(J) 6" proposing that the camouflage might have been 74/75 with undersurfaces in 76 (see pages 151-155)

[Werdna]

4 hours ago, Super Aereo said:

Poruba changed his interpretation of colours in the later book "Messerschmitt Bf 109s of KG(J) 6" proposing that the camouflage might have been 74/75 with undersurfaces in 76 (see pages 151-155)

 

I don't have the reference unfortunately, but it's interesting that the opinion of the colours is less certain, given that there is also a colour pic of black 12 in the earlier book (taken from the front) from which JaPo 'confirmed' the colours of green/grey.  Interesting stuff.. 

[Mike Starmer]

That fin/rudder sub-assembly might be overall RLM 77 which was used more than generally believed.  The dark band looks to me to be rather too neat for a shadow. It may be a coloured band applied as a markings of the day.   Not black, red or blue most likely.  

[Super Aereo]

2 hours ago, Werdna said:

 

I don't have the reference unfortunately, but it's interesting that the opinion of the colours is less certain, given that there is also a colour pic of black 12 in the earlier book (taken from the front) from which JaPo 'confirmed' the colours of green/grey.  Interesting stuff.. 

 

I think Poruba eventually realised that 74 (which could have a greenish tinge) might have been kept in use even after its official removal from the list of approved colours. Poruba's research is great, but in the end a lot of it can only be guesswork, given the lack of official documents...

[GiampieroSilvestri]

2 hours ago, Mike Starmer said:

That fin/rudder sub-assembly might be overall RLM 77 which was used more than generally believed.  The dark band looks to me to be rather too neat for a shadow. It may be a coloured band applied as a markings of the day.   Not black, red or blue most likely.  

RLM 77 was only used as removable colour for codes on nightfighters until 1943.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

 

 

Edited May 20 by GiampieroSilvestri

[Graham Boak]

This aircraft however postdates 1943, I believe?

 

Just what grey was used for light grey codes by a Stuka Geschwader in France 1940 if not 77?   Given that it predates the  7t4/75/76 colours, this is a more interesting question than I thought when I started it.

[Mycapt65]

I'm of the opinion it could be almost anything so do it as you like. If I had to guess I'd start with the wings in 74&75  because that's the new socially acceptable wing colors. With that in mind the light upper fuselage color is lighter than the 75 on the wing. Pick any light grey you like for that.

 

Theres two darker fuselage colors. The one close to the planes number looks close to the 74 on the wing. The other on the tailplane and sprayed near the cowling and under the windscreen is significantly darker. Pick your poison there. 70? 71? 81? Or the color formally known as 83?

The truth is until a GOOD color photo appears theres no way to be sure of anything. So build it as you like and enjoy it. 

Edited May 20 by Mycapt65
Grammar

[Werdna]

Thanks for the replies so far, people.

 

Just to be clear, I'm open to several combinations of colours for the main body of the aircraft, but my question here relates more directly to the tail; whether anyone is aware of any other such 'plain' late tails and whether potentially the 'flash' near the top might have been something other than a camo colour..  

 

 

[GiampieroSilvestri]

1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

This aircraft however postdates 1943, I believe?

 

Just what grey was used for light grey codes by a Stuka Geschwader in France 1940 if not 77?   Given that it predates the  7t4/75/76 colours, this is a more interesting question than I thought when I started it.

Only nightfighter painted in RLM 22 schwarz allover had codes painted in RLM 77 hellgrau and only until 1943.Stukas in 1940 had codes in RLM 22 schwarz with the letter of the gruppe painted in yellow/white/red/blue or green.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

Edited May 20 by GiampieroSilvestri

[Mycapt65]

1 hour ago, Werdna said:

Thanks for the replies so far, people.

 

Just to be clear, I'm open to several combinations of colours for the main body of the aircraft, but my question here relates more directly to the tail; whether anyone is aware of any other such 'plain' late tails and whether potentially the 'flash' near the top might have been something other than a camo colour..  

 

 

The dark hard edged area of the tail is definitely paint it's not a shadow. There's photos of other late war aircraft with straight lined high contrast anglular camouflage. Very reminiscent of early war splinter camouflage. I'll see if I can locate the photos. I know theres photos of at least one JG7 262 in such splinter style camo.

[Mycapt65]

Theres a rear quartering view  of Black 12s left side on page 67 of the JaPo 109K camouflage and marking book. I'm not sure if I can post it regarding copyright management. It's clearly painted on the tail. 

[Werdna]

Yes, the other pic is on the other thread I linked to in my first post.  I'm already working on the assumption/acceptance that it's paint and not a shadow - but my questions are more relating to the possibility of a 'non-camo' colour for the 'flash' itself, and whether there is other evidence of similar markings and indeed other similar 'plain' tall tails..

[Graham Boak]

19 hours ago, GiampieroSilvestri said:

.Stukas in 1940 had codes in RLM 22 schwarz with the letter of the gruppe painted in yellow/white/red/blue or green.

 

That was the normal arrangement, except for one unit which had codes in a very light colour 

 

Gruppe Stab II/StG 1, a/c 6G+AD. BD. and CD, actually Battle Of Britain.   See Alain Fleuret's revised Vol 1 Luftwaffe Camouflage for Kookaburra.P126.  This is probably the photo I remember, but the caption suggests either light blue, grey or green.  Not blue (see contrast with underside but being Stab could be green.  

[SafetyDad]

On 20/05/2024 at 23:48, Mycapt65 said:

Theres a rear quartering view  of Black 12s left side on page 67 of the JaPo 109K camouflage and marking book. I'm not sure if I can post it regarding copyright management. It's clearly painted on the tail. 

 

This picture at the foot of this capture?

 

 

Source is JaPo Bf 109K Vol 2 - my usual distortion to discourage further replication, and posted for the purpose of research/discussion.

 

I'm confident that the tail marking is not a shadow. It is a bit of a puzzle though - the best explanation I can provide is that it's part of the hard-edged camouflage visible 

on the remainder of the fuselage

 

JaPo also provide artwork (which I won't upload for Copyright reasons), but these two pictures, plus the frontal colour shot in the linked thread) are pretty comprehensive coverage of such a late-war machine. Older viewers may recall the text in the Monogram Close-Up on the Bf 109K, where Thomas Hitchcock was pretty sure that his slim volume contained all the existing pictures of the Bf 109K. What a lot we've learned since! (And I still treasure my Close-Ups!).

 

SD

[Super Aereo]

Wrong thread, apologies

Edited May 22 by Super Aereo
Wrong thread

[Werdna]

2 hours ago, SafetyDad said:

I'm confident that the tail marking is not a shadow. It is a bit of a puzzle though - the best explanation I can provide is that it's part of the hard-edged camouflage visible 

on the remainder of the fuselage

 

That's probably the best explanation I have too, although the tone appears slightly different to the dark colour on the fuselage.  Given that this is thought to be a KG(J) 6 aircraft, I did wonder if it might be a red flash, given that red (along with black) formed a main part of the old KG 6 badge.  But I can't see any evidence of such a flash on any other KG 6 aircraft.

 

The other oddity is how the tail colours 'blend in' to the rest of the fuselage camo, at a time when the tail units were being delivered pre-painted/mottled often in a completely different set of colours to the rest of the airframe?

[SafetyDad]

48 minutes ago, Werdna said:

Given that this is thought to be a KG(J) 6 aircraft, I did wonder if it might be a red flash, given that red (along with black) formed a main part of the old KG 6 badge.  But I can't see any evidence of such a flash on any other KG 6 aircraft.

 

 

Sorry, misread your post

 

SD

[Wayne Bull]

Japo ,have changed their interation but for that to work it means Messerschmitt Regensburg had 3or 4 months of 74 in stock when they were told in August to stop using it and to trade away with other suppliers or use it up . I just dont see them having that larger stock pile that would very unsual at the time of the war to have so much . They also acknowldege 81/82 was used on the later production batches . Given this ones paint job marks it as a later batch produced some time after the get rid of 74 order i would look at other options such as 82 /71 which was allowed or 81 /70 or 75 /82 or 70/75 which is well documented as a used scheme {see smithsonian fw 190 f/8}  and then there is 81/82 thinnly applied  which wont show as dark or conentratated . Id do a simple thing  get a paint mule and spray the pairings of the knowm colors and see which pair matchs the contrast between the two colors best and see which looks closest to the picture . It really is only a matter of sorting out the suspects and seeing which one's fit , there are only a handful of colors to choose from that were in use . For me due to the color shift in verious reproductions of this picture  i'd lean towards  75 /81 the green version {used to be 83} or 81/82   . Untill some finds the stock room files for the paint department we will always be guessing ,but with a bit of trial and logic i think we can get fairly close . Have fun Wayne

Edited May 25 by Wayne Bull

[GiampieroSilvestri]

I am sorry for the correction but it is Regensburg because the town is on the river Regen in the Oberpfalz in Bavaria.🙂

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

[Wayne Bull]

No worries ,  i just fixed it , my spelling has always been a bit dodgey 😂

[Troy Smith]

On 25/05/2024 at 07:03, Wayne Bull said:

Japo ,have changed their interation but for that to work it means Messerschmitt Regensburg had 3or 4 months of 74 in stock when they were told in August to stop using it and to trade away with other suppliers or use it up . I just dont see them having that larger stock pile that would very unsual at the time of the war to have so much . They also acknowldege 81/82 was used on the later production batches . Given this ones paint job marks it as a later batch produced some time after the get rid of 74 order i would look at other options such as 82 /71 which was allowed or 81 /70 or 75 /82 or 70/75 which is well documented as a used scheme {see smithsonian fw 190 f/8}  and then there is 81/82 thinnly applied  which wont show as dark or conentratated . Id do a simple thing  get a paint mule and spray the pairings of the knowm colors and see which pair matchs the contrast between the two colors best and see which looks closest to the picture . It really is only a matter of sorting out the suspects and seeing which one's fit , there are only a handful of colors to choose from that were in use . For me due to the color shift in verious reproductions of this picture  i'd lean towards  75 /81 the green version {used to be 83} or 81/82   . Untill some finds the stock room files for the paint department we will always be guessing ,but with a bit of trial and logic i think we can get fairly close . Have fun Wayne

yes and no Wayne.

The ever evolving fractal of late war Luftwaffe paint variants show both a desire to follow orders, and need to finish airframes with what was available,*  note that the K-4 had many subcontracted parts,  finished by the sub contractors.

 

this from Lynn Ritger

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/hyperscale/question-about-109-k-4-colors-t542759-s20.html#p2948499

"Y'all, don't take my old stuff for gospel - there's been a LOT more research published since 2007.  For what it's worth, I trust Janda/Poruba's evaluation on colors, and I think Eduard used them as a reference for their color callouts on their new K-4 kit.  Also, not all the parts for the airframe were made in the same location - I'm almost 100% certain the wings came from one of the suppliers which was providing G wings, thus explaining the prevalence of 74/75.  We know there were multiple subcontractors providing tail assemblies, and the fuselages came from KZ Gusen (WNr 330xxx), Cham/Bodenwöhr (WNr 335xxx batch, for certain) and KZ Flossenbürg (WNr 331xxx, 332xxx, possibly 333/334xxx) - each has their own distinctive camo application on the fuselage which helps identify the point of origin.  The color photo above is of a Bodenwöhr produced fuselage - the giveaway is the big snaky stripe of 76 down the lower fuselage sides."

 

 

This is the colour pic referred to

 

and B/W from the same place

 

one of the few K-4 colur pics, note the variations from parts from subcontractors, as in the tail, cowl panels and wings

 

note the subcontractor finish here

 

from here 

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109K/Bf-109K.html 

which has useful K-4 images

 

 

*not a K,  but this image has this discussion

 

An Erla G-10, note that late on it seems they ended up using up stocks of 74/75,  but note the undercowl.

from the post on the group, by

Michael Ullmann

Thank you Marc for sharing These photos with us. This is the rare opportunity to compare a b/w-photo and a color phot of the same Object under different Light conditions.

The b/w hast a more glossy appearance and how bright the colours looks like when you have the Sun behind you.

The colour photo showing a standard 74/75/76 camo. Very intersting for a late war aircraft. Because this is a sign that enough Stock of These absolete colours is around, therefore no need to change to the New colours. The inside of the engineering Cover left unpainted, showing that the ribs were made from a different Aluminium and how dark german made Aluminium could be.

 

these are post by Lynn Ritger (note 109 buff) and Micheal Ullamn (Luftwaffe colour researcher/author)

Lynn Ritger

Look at the blue on the lower cowling! It's almost the same shade as that very well known of fuselages under production at Erla in late 43, and it's clearly different from the 76 on the fuselage.

To say this is a surprise would be an understatement!

 

Michael Ullmann

Lynn Ritger absolute correct. This is again an evidence that the in my books published RLM Statements are correct, that there are Problems to deliver the correct shade of paint and there is no reason to not Accept These discoloured paint!!!!

These have to use them!

 

Lynn Ritger

Michael Thanks for that confirmation - so, there has been quite a bit of conversation about that odd blue color, do you have an idea what it may be? At first I thought it might have been Farbton 78, but there seems to be too much violet in the color for that to be right.

 

Michael Ullmann

Lynn Ritger sorry for the Late answer. Your question is 50% of the Story. RLM-Doktrin was always Never waste raw Material. Is obsolete Material like RLM 78 in 1943 (No longer a Need To produce Tropical Aircraft) available they Must used up the RLM 78 Stock before they can Order News paints. Documents That these deviations describes are Not discovered until now. The other 50% are the raw Material shortages. Everything what was available was used. To extend low Stocks I am realy shure that they Mixed paints To produce paints To fulfill there deliberiert obligations .

Under this circumstances it is possible that the Color photo showing Parts of the Aircraft painted in 79

 

Regarding the tail of Black 12

 

I don't recall another image showing the diagonal fin stripe

 

while most of the K-4 images I know of show that distictive mottle pattern on fin and rudder, there are ones that don't

 

 

 

there were over 700 K-4 built,  and there are photos of bits of 50-70,  so a variation by a subcontractor could easily not be documented.

 

HTH