Italian co-belligerent air force Spitfire MkVb/c pictures needed

[StrawLegacy]

Hello, since I'm starting a new project I,m looking here for some reference pictures because I can find very little on the internet.

I need any availabe picture of the Spitfires MkV B/C trop in service with the italian co-belligerent air force in 1944 and early 1945 (so only war time material, not post armistice), in particular the planes flown by the 20th group of the 51st Stormo, the one with the insignia of a black cat.

I managed to put my hands on a decal sheet in 1/48 for the spit ''20-1 yellow'' (should be a MkV c trop) and that's my priority, but even 20-2 and 20-12 would be nice , or every other Mk V of that group flying war missions in the balcans at the time.

Thanks for everyone able to help me, have a nice weekend!

[JWM]

only drawings of 20-4 so far: 

after a while two photos here 

https://forum.warthunder.com/t/spitfire-mk-vb-trop-wing-type-2-the-new-start-of-italian-airforce/67993

And a past thread

Cheers

J-W

 

Edited May 13 by JWM

[Giorgio N]

There used to be a website with several pictures,  eaf51.org

Unfortunately the site does not seem to exist anymore. The people behind it, a "virtual" 51 Stormo, have a Facebook page  but I don't know if they have posted the pictures there.

There is a video in the IWM collection with colour footage of Italian Mk.Vs in action, don't have the link at hand but uf you search for "Italian spitfire" in the forum it should be linked in a couple of threads.

Of course there's the option of finding the book published by the Air Force history section...

[StrawLegacy]

3 hours ago, JWM said:

only drawings of 20-4 so far: 

after w while two photos here 

https://forum.warthunder.com/t/spitfire-mk-vb-trop-wing-type-2-the-new-start-of-italian-airforce/67993

And a past thread

Cheers

J-W

 

Thanks, I've found this drawing too but sadly there is a big lack of pictures for this subject

 

1 hour ago, Giorgio N said:

There used to be a website with several pictures,  eaf51.org

Unfortunately the site does not seem to exist anymore. The people behind it, a "virtual" 51 Stormo, have a Facebook page  but I don't know if they have posted the pictures there.

There is a video in the IWM collection with colour footage of Italian Mk.Vs in action, don't have the link at hand but uf you search for "Italian spitfire" in the forum it should be linked in a couple of threads.

Of course there's the option of finding the book published by the Air Force history section...

I had their page about the ICAF saved but sadly I've found that the site is down this week. Thevideo on the IWM site appears to have been deleted too, only a short clips of 4 seconds f taxi is visible online on youtube now sadly.

The book you are referring to is ''Spitfire italiani'' by Gregory Alegi? If yes I've already ordered it and it should arrive me next week

[Ger Darkly]

6 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

There used to be a website with several pictures,  eaf51.org

Unfortunately the site does not seem to exist anymore. The people behind it, a "virtual" 51 Stormo, have a Facebook page  but I don't know if they have posted the pictures there.

There is a video in the IWM collection with colour footage of Italian Mk.Vs in action, don't have the link at hand but uf you search for "Italian spitfire" in the forum it should be linked in a couple of threads.

Of course there's the option of finding the book published by the Air Force history section...

The Internet Archive Wayback Machine has a snapshot of the relevant page from May 2022:

https://web.archive.org/web/20220528002005/http://www.eaf51.org/Photo_03_51_ICAF_Spit.htm

 

Edited May 11 by Ger Darkly

[Giorgio N]

17 hours ago, StrawLegacy said:

Thanks, I've found this drawing too but sadly there is a big lack of pictures for this subject

 

I had their page about the ICAF saved but sadly I've found that the site is down this week. Thevideo on the IWM site appears to have been deleted too, only a short clips of 4 seconds f taxi is visible online on youtube now sadly.

The book you are referring to is ''Spitfire italiani'' by Gregory Alegi? If yes I've already ordered it and it should arrive me next week

 

Yes, that's the book. Mind, the chapter on the Spitfire V is not particularly big, there seem to be only relatively few pictures of these aircraft. There are also a number of inaccuracies in the book, particularly on the kind of details we modellers are interested in, subvariants are sometimes mistaken and the notes on the camouflage are based on old and incorrect information. The Modeltime decal sheet was much better researched than the book from this point of view. 

[StrawLegacy]

2 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

 

Yes, that's the book. Mind, the chapter on the Spitfire V is not particularly big, there seem to be only relatively few pictures of these aircraft. There are also a number of inaccuracies in the book, particularly on the kind of details we modellers are interested in, subvariants are sometimes mistaken and the notes on the camouflage are based on old and incorrect information. The Modeltime decal sheet was much better researched than the book from this point of view. 

Thanks Giorgio, sadly the model time decal sheet in 1/48 seems impossible to be found now, I've searched for it everywhere. I' ve bought the exotic decals sheet (https://www.super-hobby.it/products/Italian-Spitfires-Supermarine-Spitfire-In-Regia-Aeronautica.html ), and the only other 1/48 sheet available online is the xtradecal one (https://www.scalemates.com/it/kits/xtradecal-x48217-supermarine-spitfire-mkvc--1297069).

 

Do you have at least any accurate source or speculation confirming if  20-1 and 20-4 mounted the B or the C wing, and their armament?

15 hours ago, Ger Darkly said:

The Internet Archive Wayback Machine has a snapshot of the relevant page from May 2022:

https://web.archive.org/web/20220528002005/http://www.eaf51.org/Photo_03_51_ICAF_Spit.htm

 

Thank you so much Ger Darkly, that's the page i had saved and was no longer available, much appreciated!

[Super Aereo]

The IWM still has the digitized version of the footage online:

 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060019790

 

You are welcome.

 

😉

[StrawLegacy]

3 hours ago, Super Aereo said:

The IWM still has the digitized version of the footage online:

 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060019790

 

You are welcome.

 

😉

Thank you so much, I couldn't find it anywhere complete!

[Giorgio N]

20 hours ago, StrawLegacy said:

Thanks Giorgio, sadly the model time decal sheet in 1/48 seems impossible to be found now, I've searched for it everywhere. I' ve bought the exotic decals sheet (https://www.super-hobby.it/products/Italian-Spitfires-Supermarine-Spitfire-In-Regia-Aeronautica.html ), and the only other 1/48 sheet available online is the xtradecal one (https://www.scalemates.com/it/kits/xtradecal-x48217-supermarine-spitfire-mkvc--1297069).

 

Do you have at least any accurate source or speculation confirming if  20-1 and 20-4 mounted the B or the C wing, and their armament?

 

 

I believe the Modeltime sheet was made in small numbers, it had already become impossible to find shortly after its release so no surprise it's even harder to find now,

 

Regarding the various codes and variants, 20-1 was most likely a Vc.. or better, there was a 20-1 that was most likely a Vc, visible in the IWM video. You can see a few enlarged stills and other pictures here:

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Spitfire/ICBAF.html

Pictures that are not from the video are the same as in the EAF51 site and the book.

 

Regarding 20-4, a fellow Italian modeller who researched these aircraft mentioned the presence of a Vb with clipped wings coded 20-4 Since he also posts here I'll give @GioCare a shout, in case he has completed the list of code/varian matched he worked on a while ago.

And of course there was also the 20-4 offered by the Xtradecal sheet, that was a Vc. The scheme shown in the Xtradecal sheet was a complete repaint, the picture showing this was taken after the end of the war so it's hard to tell if the aircraft actually fought in that scheme.

 

Speaking of variants, a warning to keep in mind: pictures of Italian Spitfire Vs show the presence of some aircraft with the C wing without the outer stub. This has led some to caption the pictures as Vb while the aircraft was a Vc, basing the assumptions on the lack of the stub. Now the shape of the gun fairing on the C differed from that of the B so this is the thing to check rather than the presence or not of the stub

 

[StrawLegacy]

1 hour ago, Giorgio N said:

 

I believe the Modeltime sheet was made in small numbers, it had already become impossible to find shortly after its release so no surprise it's even harder to find now,

 

Regarding the various codes and variants, 20-1 was most likely a Vc.. or better, there was a 20-1 that was most likely a Vc, visible in the IWM video. You can see a few enlarged stills and other pictures here:

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Spitfire/ICBAF.html

Pictures that are not from the video are the same as in the EAF51 site and the book.

 

Regarding 20-4, a fellow Italian modeller who researched these aircraft mentioned the presence of a Vb with clipped wings coded 20-4 Since he also posts here I'll give @GioCare a shout, in case he has completed the list of code/varian matched he worked on a while ago.

And of course there was also the 20-4 offered by the Xtradecal sheet, that was a Vc. The scheme shown in the Xtradecal sheet was a complete repaint, the picture showing this was taken after the end of the war so it's hard to tell if the aircraft actually fought in that scheme.

 

Speaking of variants, a warning to keep in mind: pictures of Italian Spitfire Vs show the presence of some aircraft with the C wing without the outer stub. This has led some to caption the pictures as Vb while the aircraft was a Vc, basing the assumptions on the lack of the stub. Now the shape of the gun fairing on the C differed from that of the B so this is the thing to check rather than the presence or not of the stub

 

Thanks you for everything, you have been really esaustive. Grazie mille Giorgio!