Regiment identification from photograph

[evilbobthebob]

I am once again here to make use of the knowledgeable folks of this forum! My mother recently sent me some wonderful photographs of her father in Egypt. He was part of the Royal Army medical corps. One in particular caught my eye, a clearly early photo of a tank regiment at attention. At full resolution, the nearest universal carrier appears to have "Mr Chips" written on the side. Interesting array of vehicles and paint schemes represented, too.

[John Tapsell]

The photo is no earlier than about June 1940 - the presence of vehicles carrying Caunter camouflage in the photo dates it to between mid-'40 and late '41. However the presence of light tanks keeps it in the 1940 time bracket.

 

If I read my references correctly that offers you four possibilities - all part of 7th Armoured Division: 7th Hussars, 8th Hussars, 1 RTR or 6 RTR, all of whom were fully (7th and 8th Hussars) or partially (1 and 6 RTR) equipped with light tanks.

[evilbobthebob]

Thanks John! That really narrows it down. What references did you use for that?

[Tigerausfb]

Are you sure they're not Australians?

[Kingsman]

Have you another format for this file?  I've tried to enlarge it after opening in a new tab but it will not.  It just wants to download.  I've tried downloading and saving it but my PC wouldn't recogise the file type and open it.

 

I think there might be some other tank types in the middle of the picture.  6 RTR had a mix of Lights, Cruisers (A9/10?) and some Medium Mk IIs in this timeframe.  The Mediums were passed on to 1 RTR later in 1940 IIRC.

[John Tapsell]

6 hours ago, evilbobthebob said:

Thanks John! That really narrows it down. What references did you use for that?

I looked at the Order of Battle for 7th Armd Div as they were the only major 'armoured' (tank-operating) unit in Egypt in mid-1940.

 

Picking up on Kingsman's post, yes, I am also intrigued by those 'larger' vehicles in the middle background but can't decide whether they are light tanks that just look larger or might perhaps be Cruisers or Mediums.

Edited March 24 by John Tapsell

[Circloy]

Do I recall seing a spreadsheet/database of tank nicknames. If so that might help with "Mr Chips"

[Circloy]

18 minutes ago, Kingsman said:

Have you another format for this file?  I've tried to enlarge it after opening in a new tab but it will not.  It just wants to download.  I've tried downloading and saving it but my PC wouldn't recogise the file type and open it.

 

I think there might be some other tank types in the middle of the picture.  6 RTR had a mix of Lights, Cruisers (A9/10?) and some Medium Mk IIs in this timeframe.  The Mediums were passed on to 1 RTR later in 1940 IIRC.

For me it wants to save as a JPG file.

 

Have opened it and, whilst it's cluttered and gets pxellated, I'd say they were Medium Mk II's.

[Tigerausfb]

I'll ask again, are you sure they're not Australians? Clue: that's not Egypt.

Edited March 24 by Tigerausfb

[davecov]

It is the 9th Australian Divisional Cavalry Regiment.

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C13851

 

Dave

[Tigerausfb]

It is, in Syria

[evilbobthebob]

Hah! That's remarkable. I guess I should have done a reverse image search...I have no idea why my family would have a print of that photograph alongside photos definitely taken by my grandfather. Unless RAMC units were attached to the 9th cavalry. Thank you all so much for your research!

[evilbobthebob]

The plot thickens. For some reason my family also has a cropped print of this photo: https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205203628

Was this kind of thing given/sold as a souvenir? It's evocative, but a bit obscure.

[davecov]

I got the information about the regiment from a Star Decals sheet that is on sale on Hannants and covers New Zealand and Australian tanks and AFVs in Africa and Middle East WW2. Sherman Mk III, Universal Carrier, M3A1 White Scout Car, Dingo Scout Car: https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/72-A1064 then it was a case of Googling 9th Australian etc. BTW, T21330, is one of the featured vehicles on the decal sheet but camouflaged and without the "Mr Chips".

 

Dave

[evilbobthebob]

After further correspondence with my family, my grandfather did have an Australian friend, so presumably the photo is some kind of memento from him. This also resulted in his pay book being dug up with his service record:

Home: 8-9-36 - 1.10.36
Palestine: 1.10.36 - 6.12.36
Home: 1.9.39 - 14.9.39
France: 15.9.39 - 18.6.40
Home: 18.6.40 - 19.3.41
Egypt: 20.5.41 - 18.9.42
Palestine: 18.9.42 - 20.7.43
Sicily: 20.7.43 - 18.8.44
Italy: 18.8.44

which means he got out of France at Dunkirk, missed the second El Alamein, and was part of the second wave of the Italian campaign (presumably). The Palestinian postings are interesting and presumably part of the occupation forces there.

Edited March 26 by evilbobthebob

[John Tapsell]

Wartime postings to Palestine could have included 'policing' duties but there were also large training camps in the area where British units trained for deployment to active battle zones (North Africa, Sicily, Italy etc) or were sent for rest. It depends on whether your grandfather was attached to a combat unit or whether he was part of a field hospital or other rear echolon medical unit. That might help determine why he was posted hither and thither.

 

France: Depending which unit he was attached to he may not have left France via Dunkirk but possibly somewhere such as Cherbourg or St Nazaire - British forces continued to evacuate from other parts of France for some weeks after the Dunkirk evacuation had been completed. These were not not small-scale evacuations. My partner's dad for example retreated through Normandy and up to Cherbourg with 1st Armd Div.

 

Another example to provide some scale to the evacuations was the RMS Lancastria. She was evacuating troops from St Nazaire on 17 June when she was sunk by German bombers just outside the harbour - losses of British troops from the sinking are estimated at anything from 4000-7000 (considered to be the second-highest loss of life from a British vessel) and news about it was suppressed for much of the war.

[evilbobthebob]

"66th Field Hospital" is at least one of the postings my uncle mentioned. He was also on SS Oronsay and SS Georgic, presumably when they were troop carriers (and probably before they were sunk!). The paybook shows he reached the rank of Staff Sergeant. His number is rather oddly Y261843 which doesn't seem to match the formats I have seen elsewhere.

Thanks a lot for the detailed information, as always. To be on topic for the forum, I suppose I ought to get one of the ambulance kits and "soldiers on stretchers" sets! Not a field hospital per se but close enough.

[evilbobthebob]

My uncle dug up some more documents, the most fun of which is probably this signed (squadmates?) Christmas dinner menu from Ancona, 1944. If anybody can read cursive better than me, I'd love to know what "Caddy box just...home" means (or actually reads as).

 

[dnl42]

I have no info to add, but I love such contemporaneous photos and the info that have been uncovered. 

 

On 3/24/2024 at 1:46 PM, Kingsman said:

Have you another format for this file?  I've tried to enlarge it after opening in a new tab but it will not.  It just wants to download.  I've tried downloading and saving it but my PC wouldn't recogise the file type and open it.

As mentioned, it is indeed a JPEG file, 1024x706, 8-bit. On Winders, just rename the file and add ".jpg" to the end and all will be well.

[Pig of the Week]

The end of the hand written bit looks like "just going home"  to me.. and "caddy" may be Paddy? 

[evilbobthebob]

6 hours ago, Pig of the Week said:

The end of the hand written bit looks like "just going home"  to me.. and "caddy" may be Paddy? 

That's a very good call. "Paddy Cox, just going home"?

[dnl42]

2 hours ago, evilbobthebob said:

That's a very good call. "Paddy Cox, just going home"?

Hm, that's written twice?

[evilbobthebob]

Yes, it's certainly odd! Though if they had imbibed a lot of the Bevande I wouldn't be surprised if it got passed around a few times and signed repeatedly...

[evilbobthebob]

Some more double posting in my topic, but much more on-subject for this forum. It may be common knowledge here, but you can read the war diaries of most Australian units online, including the 9th cavalry regiment depicted in the first photo of this topic at https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C2698564

 

This includes detailed descriptions of their actions in Syria, El Alamein etc. The El Alamein diary (June-August 1942) has nuggets such as "...no steps will be taken by Units under Comd 9 Aust. Div. to obtain beer until further notice." and a lengthy diatribe by the regimental engineers about the shoddy workmanship on the A15 Crusaders they received, and rather interestingly referring to the M3 Stuart as M111 (light) Honeydew.

[Tigerausfb]

That menu's great! Reads like a superbly posh restaurants menu but is just a normal Christmas dinner, love it.  I have some Christmas stuff from RAF Langham, Strike Wing in my collection