Sherman Crab

[thebig-bear]

I wondered if anyone might be able to provide me with any details about the production of the Sherman Crab Mk I and Mk II please, particularly regarding the dates of manufacture and numbers made. @Kingsman, I think perhaps you might be able to help with that sort of thing.

 

I think, from what little I have been able to find, that about 300 or so Mk Is were produced between November 1943 and March 1944, before the switch to the Mk II - is that correct?

 

Dare I ask about colours?.....

 

[J from the junction]

Good evening. Sorry to jump in on this but are there any kits available to make one of these? I’m not an armour modeller usually but I have been considering one of these for a D-day build. Thanks for your time. J

[thebig-bear]

2 hours ago, J from the junction said:

Good evening. Sorry to jump in on this but are there any kits available to make one of these? I’m not an armour modeller usually but I have been considering one of these for a D-day build. Thanks for your time. J

That's quite alright.

 

I'm afraid I don't know of any kits, as I make my models for playing wargames at 28mm or 1/56 scale, so I am not strictly a modeller in quite the same way that most people are on here.

 

What scale should you prefer to model at?

 

Edited March 23 by thebig-bear

[FG2Si]

In 1/35, the only one I know of is from Heavy Hobby. 

 

Hobby Easy in Hong Kong has it but there may be other retailers that sell it. 

 

https://www.hobbyeasy.com/en/data/zxta8vgbopd5jfom5btg.html

[Phil Evans]

Resicast and Legend do conversions in 1/35, but I'm not sure of the availability of the Resicast one. The Heavy Hobby appears to be sold as Lanmo but I'm not sure of that either.

[Kingsman]

There have been 1/35 Crab MkI conversions from Legend and Resicast in the past.  Legend is OOP.  Resicast have a new owner in France.  Their Crab MkI is still available.  The Lanmo MkI is pretty new.  No-one seems to do a MkII.

 

As for numbers, I know no more than what is published.  There were 3 Crab Regiments in NW Europe, a single Squadron in Italy and apparently a Squadron in India.  That needed 132 - 140 tanks at full strength, plus attrition replacements and training vehicles.  300 seems reasonable.  Some MkIIs were certainly produced and at least 1 survives, in Cananda.  But I haven't seen any photos of MkIIs in action, even late into the war.  The ones I have seen all seem to be at Chertsey.

[thebig-bear]

26 minutes ago, Kingsman said:

There have been 1/35 Crab MkI conversions from Legend and Resicast in the past.  Legend is OOP.  Resicast have a new owner in France.  Their Crab MkI is still available.  The Lanmo MkI is pretty new.  No-one seems to do a MkII.

 

As for numbers, I know no more than what is published.  There were 3 Crab Regiments in NW Europe, a single Squadron in Italy and apparently a Squadron in India.  That needed 132 - 140 tanks at full strength, plus attrition replacements and training vehicles.  300 seems reasonable.  Some MkIIs were certainly produced and at least 1 survives, in Cananda.  But I haven't seen any photos of MkIIs in action, even late into the war.  The ones I have seen all seem to be at Chertsey.

It's certainly more than I was able to find! Thank you, @Kingsman, that was just the sort of answer I was looking for, and much more. Much appreciated.

 

Didn't realise that about there being a lack of photos of Mk IIs - interesting. I found something yesterday that suggested that MK IIs were the only ones used in Italy, as the Mk I was found unsuitable due to the terrain, and therefore mines in low ground being missed, etc,  but just how true that is I don't know.

 

Any thoughts about colours for Mk Is? Later production being SCC15 with early ones in SCC2 is my guess. And are we talking full repaints? Found a shot of one in training recently that appears to have possible MTP 46 pattern camouflage, but I'm awaiting Mike Starmer's judgement on that one. The only shot I have (so far) found of one in colour, namely the IWM cine of one boarding a landing craft for D-Day, is painted in some sort of Olive.

Edited March 24 by thebig-bear
Additional info

[Kingsman]

I would have thought that all Crabs were SCC15.  There were only 12-16 Crabs in Italy in the last few months: not sure there are any photos. 

 

There is a PDF copy of the Osprey Crab book here: https://i.4pcdn.org/tg/1543504647535.pdf  but I find the numbers and narrative to be confusing and contradictory.  Osprey books are too-often unreliable.  It says that the MkII became standardised in May 44 and was issued after D Day, used in France, at Walcheren and the Rhine crossing, but photos suggest otherwise.  Even the adjacent photo in the book from Dec '44 clearly shows MkIs.  The angled hydraulic rams for the arms on the MkI are a giveaway.  The MkII had a horizontal hydraulic cylinder on the right side only to raise the arms for travelling.

[thebig-bear]

8 hours ago, Kingsman said:

I would have thought that all Crabs were SCC15.  There were only 12-16 Crabs in Italy in the last few months: not sure there are any photos. 

 

There is a PDF copy of the Osprey Crab book here: https://i.4pcdn.org/tg/1543504647535.pdf  but I find the numbers and narrative to be confusing and contradictory.  Osprey books are too-often unreliable.  It says that the MkII became standardised in May 44 and was issued after D Day, used in France, at Walcheren and the Rhine crossing, but photos suggest otherwise.  Even the adjacent photo in the book from Dec '44 clearly shows MkIs.  The angled hydraulic rams for the arms on the MkI are a giveaway.  The MkII had a horizontal hydraulic cylinder on the right side only to raise the arms for travelling.

Good stuff. Thanks again.

Edited March 24 by thebig-bear

[J from the junction]

Many thanks for the replies guys. I used to model in 1/35 Bear so this would be my preferred scale as I find 1/76 a little too small for my display shelf. I will get on the net and price them up. Many thanks. J

[John Tapsell]

Don't forget the Crabs were used by the Americans in small numbers too. One of the Mine Exploder Battalions had a Company (= British Squadron) of Sherman V Crabs loaned/gifted from the British - can't remember which battalion off the top of my head though.

[Kingsman]

The US also developed their own copies of the Mine Exploder, as they called it.  Although in their parlance that description also encompassed mine rollers.

 

I believe the Crab at Bovington was a School tank there and is still a MkI, not a MkII. Which might suggest that MkIs predominated in units if that was the equipment being trained.

[thebig-bear]

On 23/03/2024 at 23:41, thebig-bear said:

Any thoughts about colours for Mk Is? Later production being SCC15 with early ones in SCC2 is my guess. And are we talking full repaints? Found a shot of one in training recently that appears to have possible MTP 46 pattern camouflage, but I'm awaiting Mike Starmer's judgement on that one.

Have now had Mike confirm that he thinks it is indeed MTP.46 pattern camouflage, be it in full or partial.

 

Therefore, in conjunction with the date of the film, I suggest it seems highly likely that it would have featured SCC2 on the added parts, such as the flail and jib, with either SCC2 or original US OD on the hull and turret (depending on how much of a repaint such areas would have needed - the hull I suspect might have needed some), and, Mike thinks, with probably SCC1A used as the disrupter, as the contrast is not as much as one would expect with SCC14.

 

The film is on the IWM website, and called, "THE TESTING OF SPECIALISED ARMOURED FIGHTING VEHICLES DESIGNED FOR OPERATION OVERLORD (PART 2)", should anyone wish to take a look. The Crab in question is featured from approx. 52 secs to 1 minute 35 secs.

 

Needless to say, I am now working on painting a Sherman Crab with MTP 46 camouflage. 😀

Edited March 31 by thebig-bear

[Kingsman]

However, in another thread on this forum about colours it was identified that a WO contract for Khaki Green 3 paint made some time after KG3 had become unavailable had been amended to US Olive Drab.  Suggesting that the UK could make OD paint.  We had the necessary ochre clay pigments fron Devon (as used in SCC2) and lamp black.  

[Yorkshire man]

On 3/24/2024 at 9:44 PM, John Tapsell said:

Don't forget the Crabs were used by the Americans in small numbers too. One of the Mine Exploder Battalions had a Company (= British Squadron) of Sherman V Crabs loaned/gifted from the British - can't remember which battalion off the top of my head though.

The unit was 2nd Armored division, 17th Armored Engineer Battalion (M4A4 'Hiwassee', 'Hun  Chaser')

[thebig-bear]

2 hours ago, Kingsman said:

However, in another thread on this forum about colours it was identified that a WO contract for Khaki Green 3 paint made some time after KG3 had become unavailable had been amended to US Olive Drab.  Suggesting that the UK could make OD paint.  We had the necessary ochre clay pigments fron Devon (as used in SCC2) and lamp black.  

I'm sorry if I seem to be obtuse, @Kingsman, but I don't think I understand the point that you're making.

 

[John Tapsell]

5 hours ago, Yorkshire man said:

The unit was 2nd Armored division, 17th Armored Engineer Battalion (M4A4 'Hiwassee', 'Hun  Chaser')

They may have used some Sherman Crabs but I'm thinking of the 738th and 739th Tank Bns (Mine Exploder). Both battalions operated a mix of T1E1 and Sherman Crabs within their TOE and both were originally CDL battalions, before their conversion to mine exploder battalions in October 1944. In February 1945, both Bns partially re-equipped with CDLs for operations along the Rhine, but retained their mine clearing duties as well.

[Yorkshire man]

13 hours ago, John Tapsell said:

They may have used some Sherman Crabs but I'm thinking of the 738th and 739th Tank Bns (Mine Exploder). Both battalions operated a mix of T1E1 and Sherman Crabs within their TOE and both were originally CDL battalions, before their conversion to mine exploder battalions in October 1944. In February 1945, both Bns partially re-equipped with CDLs for operations along the Rhine, but retained their mine clearing duties as well.

 Have a read of this it may help :-

 

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=216704

 

also:-

 

 c. The 738th and 739th Tank Battalions (Mine Exploder) attached one company to each of the Corps of First and Ninth U.S. Armies, respectively. The 6638th Mine Field Clearance Company was employed in a similar manner by Seventh U.S. Army. Small detachments equivalent to a platoon or section of mine exploders were normally attached to various engineer combat groups and battalions and were employed in clearing isolated sections of roads and mine fields encountered or bypassed in the advance to the ROER River and between the ROER and the RHINE Rivers in January, February, and March 1945.

(1) A platoon of five CRABS from Company "A", 739th Tank Battalion was attached to the 303d Engineer Combat Battalion to breach a large mine field on 30 January 1944 in the ROER River approach. The assault failed as two CRABS were destroyed by enemy anti-tank gun fire, two CRABS were disabled by anti-tank mines, and one suffered a mechanical failure.15

(2) One T1E1 was used to clear two large minefields on either side of a landing strip, and accomplished its mission by detonating 165 Regal mines and six pound charges, plus numerous anti-personnel mines during a three day period. Only one mine was detonated by the track of the mine exploder; however, several glass mines were bypassed as the space between the rollers bridged the mine field.16

(3) Approximately five sections of road, five to eighteen miles long, were rolled by T1E1's and T1E3's between the ROER and RHINE Rivers in March 1945. These operations were severely handicapped by road craters, wrecked equipment, snow and mud, and sharp turns in the roads. Several mine exploders were temporarily disabled by mines detonated by the track in backing and turning to negotiate sharp road turns.16

d. The T1E1's of the 739th Tank Battalion with the Ninth U.S. Army were withdrawn from use indefinitely 15 February 1945. The mine exploder equipment was dismantled, and the prime movers were applied against an acute tank recovery vehicle shortage.

[Kingsman]

18 hours ago, thebig-bear said:

I'm sorry if I seem to be obtuse, @Kingsman, but I don't think I understand the point that you're making

My somewhat obtuse point is that WO was apparently buying OD paint. Which puts a different complexion on the Crab, Firefly etc conversion colour debate.  It may not be a binary choice of SCC2 vs SCC15. 

[thebig-bear]

3 hours ago, Kingsman said:

My somewhat obtuse point is that WO was apparently buying OD paint. Which puts a different complexion on the Crab, Firefly etc conversion colour debate.  It may not be a binary choice of SCC2 vs SCC15. 

Well, if you are referring to what I think you are referring, then there is no context in which to place it. We don't know to what application, and by which service, of Khaki Green no.3 is being substituted (and, indeed, was it even being talked of in that fashion?) with a non-British reference-numbered US Olive Drab. The date in question is substantially later than would have been expected for talk of a substitute to Khaki Green no. 3, and does not fit with what we know actually transpired, ie. the adoption of the newly formulated British SCC15 in early 1944. We also know, provided by the same person in the same thread, that olive was chosen over some sort of khaki as the shade to adopt, so as to match US made equipment - their quote from an original period source, not mine. Therefore, and without wishing to tread too far back into that particular discussion, it puts paid to the theory that we produced or procured US OD for our own use, because if we had been able to do so, what was the point in formulating our own, distinct colour? As to why we didn’t choose to adopt and produce the US shade for ourselves, that is for another discussion, as I cannot claim to know why we did not, but the fact is that, clearly, we didn’t. Otherwise, if we had simply been able to produce the desired shade in small quantities for patch painting Shermans, etc, what was to prevent us making it in much larger quantity for general use?

 

Also, if such a scheme had, in fact, been implemented, wouldn’t it have had it’s own ACI dictating as such? And, even if one might argue that such a document might have been lost in subsequent years, and even for those who only know vaguely of how the army of the period spoke and operated in terms of it’s paperwork, it would seem most likely, if not a certainty, to have been mentioned in some fashion within ACI 533, which marked the introduction of SCC15 (although only mentioned as “Olive Drab”, of course). There would likely have been an additional line, worded something along the lines of, “An exception will be made in the case of American made vehicles and equipment, or such modifications as are made to these items, where paint matching to US OD no.9 is to be used. Such stocks will be issued in due course, and where applicable.” Yet there is no mention of it, or indeed anywhere else.

 

That is not to say that it there is a 100% certainty that it could not have been used, but there is zero evidence for it. When looking at the particular vehicle, I think there is an argument for the fact that the dark SCC1A areas extend down the whole side to the bottom of the body for a short length, which might suggest that it was used on the hull in order to circumvent the need to repaint that in SCC2, and merely patch with the darker colour. But that still leaves the jib, flail, etc, and they must surely have been either SCC2 or SCC15, depending upon the latter's introduction.

Edited April 1 by thebig-bear