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Trying to find a thread about Corsairs and Semi Gloss Dark Sea Blue


David H

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Hi, i recall a thread from i think within the last year about exactly what shades of Dark Sea Blue are appropriate for WWII vintage Corsairs.

 

I mentioned that Replikator.club had paint mixes, using Tamiya Acrylics for ANA606 Semigloss Sea Blue, and ANA607, Non Spec Sea Blue.

 

Along the way the conversation also expanded into the subject of ANA623. There were differing schools of thought about how best to mix these from Tamiya paints, and i want to find these mixes so a friend and i can road test them.

 

For reference, attached below is a first test of the ANA606  paint mix as suggested by Replikator.

IMG_9230

Oops.

On close inspection i accidentally labeled the non spec blue ANA 606. It should be ANA 607.

If anybody knows the thread i'm talking about, please let me know.

 

Thanks in advance for any assistance.

 

david

Edited by David H
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1 hour ago, David H said:

If anybody knows the thread i'm talking about, please let me know.

I'd be wary of the Replikator club mixes.   I know that XF-17 has changed color dramatically over time, I have an old 23ml jar that is blue-green, and new 10 Ml jar which more of a blue-black.

That said they look reasonable on my screen

 

@Casey  has done matches/mixes for many of the ANA colors using Tamiya

 

 

PS this maybe the one you want

 

HTH

Edited by Troy Smith
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I often find it easier to search threads here by Googling the subject and adding Britmodeller as a search descriptor. Sounds counter-intuitive I know but it might just work. 
 

SD

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1 hour ago, SafetyDad said:

I often find it easier to search threads here by Googling the subject and adding Britmodeller as a search descriptor. Sounds counter-intuitive I know but it might just work. 
 

SD

Do it like this : searchterm site:britmodeller.com

This tells Google what site to look at.

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10 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

I'd be wary of the Replikator club mixes.   I know that XF-17 has changed color dramatically over time, I have an old 23ml jar that is blue-green, and new 10 Ml jar which more of a blue-black.

That said they look reasonable on my screen

 

@Casey  has done matches/mixes for many of the ANA colors using Tamiya

 

 

PS this maybe the one you want

 

HTH

Thanks Troy. I think this is the one. Passed it up the food chain for data reduction and analysis.

 

-d-

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  • 4 weeks later...

So, for anybody who is interested.....

I have done another, larger sized "All-Up" test of the Replikator ANA 603 formula...

 

Blue Test 006

I painted up a set of cowling pieces and placed them on the F4U Birdcage powerplant and propeller, which explains the white cowling flaps.

Again, i blended in a lot of Mr Super Clear UVCut gloss to add a semigloss to the finish. Stands to reason, that it also makes the paint a bit more durable.

After dumping in the SuperClear, the mix needed another round of thinning.

Blue Test 005 Blue Test 004

Keep in mind that Sea Blue does not photograph all that great, indoors.

In the name of seeking knowledge and its sweetheart son truth, i couldn't stop there.

So, i painted an equivalent set of cowling panels using Tamiya AS-8, decanted into a jar and thinned with Unicorn Tears...

Blue Test 009

It dries quickly (as one would expect) but not much gloss to speak of.

Blue Test 010 Blue Test 011 Blue Test 012 Blue Test 013

One aggravation of this process, is the blue finish highlights some rather prominent mold parting lines on the upper and lower cowling segments that should be eradicated.

 

Comparisons between the two colours are not exactly being conducted under laboratory conditions, but here is a side by side comparison.

Blue Test 014 Blue Test 015 Blue Test 016 Blue Test 017

Since the contrast was not leaping out at me, i tried piecing the two parts together....

Blue Test 018

After taking both samples outside and examining in daylight, the takeaway is the Tamiya AS-8 closely mimics the ANA Non Specular Sea Blue, but not the ANA 603. This is to be expected since the two colours aren't the same.

 

The Tamiya AS-8 in my view is perfectly acceptable for the *Flat* Sea Blue on fuselages, and the leading edges of wings and tail surfaces. Having said that, Tamiya calls for using AS-8 overall on the F4U-1D versions, which is no bueno.

 

There is one more suggested paint mix for an ANA 623 that i would like to try out. Right now i'm working on the assumption that 623 is just a glossy version of 606, but i've been proven wrong before...

 

-d-

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1 hour ago, David H said:

There is one more suggested paint mix for an ANA 623 that i would like to try out. Right now i'm working on the assumption that 623 is just a glossy version of 606, but i've been proven wrong before...

ANA 606, 607 and 623 are 3 separate colors.  

@Casey

she recommended Tamiya lacquers.    The mixes were harder with just the XF acrylics.

 

HTH

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On 3/22/2024 at 10:44 AM, David H said:

623 is just a glossy version of 606, but i've been proven wrong before...

They are not, when measured using devices that ignore gloss level they give different spectra.

 

On sRGB conversion they look like that (606 vs 623)

100x100100x100

12.8 GU vs 18.9 GU

 

I can give you full gloss measurements of those if you need (20/60/85 deg three angle gloss meter), the name beyond has 60 deg gloss unit only as indicated by GU number

 

@Troy Smith may be interested (and maybe also you)


I have measured more more of Liquited Basic Fluid (not Liquitex Basic. Those are different things) products, and I came with some simple recipes for those three colors (all mixes are using MASS parts not volume, use scales)

 

ANA606 | Semi-Gloss Sea Blue 606 | GU 12.8
        Mars Black: 4 parts
        Light Blue Permanent: 4 parts
        Titanium White: 1 part
   100x100100x100
    D65 (daylight) DE00: 0.06

 

ANA607 | Non-Specular Sea Blue 607 | GU 0.4
        Primary Blue: 23 parts
        Cadmium Yellow Deep Hue: 2 parts
        Naphthol Crimson: 1 part
   100x100100x100
    D65 (daylight) DE00: 0.47

 

or alternatively:

ANA607 | Non-Specular Sea Blue 607 | GU 0.4
        Primary Blue: 15 parts
        Phthalocyanine Green: 3 parts
        Raw Sienna: 1 part
        Cadmium Red Medium Hue: 2 parts
   100x100100x100
    D65 (daylight) DE00: 0.30

 

ANA623 | Glossy Sea Blue 623 | GU 18.9
        Mars Black: 6 parts
        Primary Blue: 1 part
        Titanium White: 3 parts
   100x100100x100
    D65 (daylight) DE00: 0.42

 

I haven't tested them in practice yet, so it is next step but if they prove as good as they look on the math, it should be a good solution for ANA blues for me. I can actually do it about right now, drawdowns should be dry in a couple of hours and I can compare my math then.

Edited by Casey
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IMO I wouldn't get too hung up on getting perfect matches. Those paints varied from supplier to supplier. Then weathered poorly. That's why ANA 623 was reformulated in 1947. Leave the color spectra graph home and just use what looks right to you. I know it's hard. I suffer from ocd and have gotten into the deepest rabbit holes chasing exact colors only to find there's no exact answers. 

Enjoy your model. The corsair is my favorite airplane of all. Make it the way you want. 

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37 minutes ago, Mycapt65 said:

IMO I wouldn't get too hung up on getting perfect matches. Those paints varied from supplier to supplier. Then weathered poorly. That's why ANA 623 was reformulated in 1947. Leave the color spectra graph home and just use what looks right to you. I know it's hard. I suffer from ocd and have gotten into the deepest rabbit holes chasing exact colors only to find there's no exact answers. 

Enjoy your model. The corsair is my favorite airplane of all. Make it the way you want. 

Modelling is very personal experience. Some get OCD seeing service door on FS190 tail on BOTH sides in Airfix kits (personal experience here...), some get OCD seeing Corsair painted in shiny Royal Blue :)

 

The thread started with color matches questions, and there are samples of how ANA colors *should* look like. What suppliers and weather did to them is a different story. I aim to get the perfect matches of colors from reference, probably following same need as people who photo etched details inside cockpit under pilot seat where nobody will see it. But they will know it is there.

 

I fully agree with "enjoy your model" part though. I'd love Corsair even if it was painted with PRU pink.

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3 hours ago, Casey said:

They are not, when measured using devices that ignore gloss level they give different spectra.

 

On sRGB conversion they look like that (606 vs 623)

100x100100x100

12.8 GU vs 18.9 GU

 

I can give you full gloss measurements of those if you need (20/60/85 deg three angle gloss meter), the name beyond has 60 deg gloss unit only as indicated by GU number

 

@Troy Smith may be interested (and maybe also you)


I have measured more more of Liquited Basic Fluid (not Liquitex Basic. Those are different things) products, and I came with some simple recipes for those three colors (all mixes are using MASS parts not volume, use scales)

 

ANA606 | Semi-Gloss Sea Blue 606 | GU 12.8
        Mars Black: 4 parts
        Light Blue Permanent: 4 parts
        Titanium White: 1 part
   100x100100x100
    D65 (daylight) DE00: 0.06

 

ANA607 | Non-Specular Sea Blue 607 | GU 0.4
        Primary Blue: 23 parts
        Cadmium Yellow Deep Hue: 2 parts
        Naphthol Crimson: 1 part
   100x100100x100
    D65 (daylight) DE00: 0.47

 

ANA623 | Glossy Sea Blue 623 | GU 18.9
        Mars Black: 6 parts
        Primary Blue: 1 part
        Titanium White: 3 parts
   100x100100x100
    D65 (daylight) DE00: 0.42

 

I haven't tested them in practice yet, so it is next step but if they prove as good as they look on the math, it should be a good solution for ANA blues for me. I can actually do it about right now, drawdowns should be dry in a couple of hours and I can compare my math then.

What i want is a mixing formulae using Tamiya Acrylics for ANA 623. I want to see with my own eyes how they differ.

I will try XF-50 with gloss added to assess what *that* looks like.

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38 minutes ago, David H said:

What i want is a mixing formulae using Tamiya Acrylics for ANA 623. I want to see with my own eyes how they differ.

Which reference colors sample do you use for comparison?

 

I use this one:

 

https://www.scalemates.com/books/the-official-monogram-us-navy-and-marine-corps-aircraft-color-guide-john-m-elliott-maj-usmc-ret--110622

 

This publication has ANA color chips.


Tamiya Acrylics have very limited pigments set, and to make things more complicated, they come not in pure form, so when using Tamiya Acrylics for a lot of colors you wont be able to get perfect matches.

 

You can try this one for ANA623 (volume based)

        XF-2 Flat White: 1 part
        XF-8 Flat Blue: 3 parts
        XF-17 Sea Blue: 12 parts
        XF-55 Deck Tan: 4 parts

 

I was unable to get satisfying mix for ANA607 so far, I admit I have mixing data only  for Tamiya XF-1 to XF-60.

 

 

Edited by Casey
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Short update, I've checked the Liquitex Basic Fluid 606/607/623 mixes above after I made them practice, here are the results:

 

ANA 606 - 1.08 DE - measured gloss 7.7 GU, need satin varnish

b8fe9b45769e9904c1b02def45529294.png

 

ANA 607 - 1.65 DE - measured gloss - 2.7 GU

80457f0f63057c3bb9e8e9acbbad4979.png

 

ANA623 - 0.58 DE - measured gloss 2.4 GU - need high satin or low gloss varnish

e11d1be55b3bb2d027ec427cfadcf805.png

 

All three turned out quite decent.

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12 hours ago, Casey said:

Which reference colors sample do you use for comparison?

 

I use this one:

 

https://www.scalemates.com/books/the-official-monogram-us-navy-and-marine-corps-aircraft-color-guide-john-m-elliott-maj-usmc-ret--110622

 

This publication has ANA color chips.


Tamiya Acrylics have very limited pigments set, and to make things more complicated, they come not in pure form, so when using Tamiya Acrylics for a lot of colors you wont be able to get perfect matches.

 

You can try this one for ANA623 (volume based)

        XF-2 Flat White: 1 part
        XF-8 Flat Blue: 3 parts
        XF-17 Sea Blue: 12 parts
        XF-55 Deck Tan: 4 parts

 

I was unable to get satisfying mix for ANA607 so far, I admit I have mixing data only  for Tamiya XF-1 to XF-60.

 

 

1) I too consider the Elliott book to be (so far) the definitive reference.

 

2) Deck Tan. Wow.

I will paint up another cowling, and report back.

 

-d-

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12 hours ago, Casey said:

 

I was unable to get satisfying mix for ANA607 so far, I admit I have mixing data only  for Tamiya XF-1 to XF-60.

 

 

Did you evaluate the Tamiya paint mix that i tried on the leading edges of the Corsair tailplanes??

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2 hours ago, David H said:

Did you evaluate the Tamiya paint mix that i tried on the leading edges of the Corsair tailplanes??

Only the one (ANA606)  that uses Tamiya not the decanted primer.

 

It will have the folowing color:

 

    "6 x XF-17 Sea Blue
     6 x XF-8 Flat Blue
     1 x XF-53 Neutral Grey
     L* 29.87 a* -0.46, b* -8.17
     RGB: #414753
     LRV = 6.69"

 

That is 4.5DE color difference from the target which is 35.64, -1.69, -5.26

 

The resulting color is too dark, too blue and has not enough green tint

 

My mixes are made in silico by minimizing color difference between solution and the target color using paints that are available, it does not matter if they are called Deck Tan, Insane Pink or Fluffy Monster :).

Edited by Casey
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39 minutes ago, Casey said:

Only the one (ANA606)  that uses Tamiya not the decanted primer.

 

It will have the folowing color:

 

    "6 x XF-17 Sea Blue
     6 x XF-8 Flat Blue
     1 x XF-53 Neutral Grey
     L* 29.87 a* -0.46, b* -8.17
     RGB: #414753
     LRV = 6.69"

 

That is 4.5DE color difference from the target which is 35.64, -1.69, -5.26

 

The resulting color is too dark, too blue and has not enough green tint

 

My mixes are made in silico by minimizing color difference between solution and the target color using paints that are available, it does not matter if they are called Deck Tan, Insane Pink or Fluffy Monster :).

No, i meant the formula that goes on the leading edges (ANA 607, mislabled ANA 606).

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1 hour ago, David H said:

No, i meant the formula that goes on the leading edges (ANA 607, mislabled ANA 606).

I do not have decanted Tamiya white primer...

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3 hours ago, David H said:

Did you evaluate the Tamiya paint mix

On possible problem.

When I trying out mixes for ANA606, 607, 623,  I was using an old 23ml Jar of XF-17

This is a mid-dark greeny blue.

I found a mix I liked for ANA623 with this. (which was 1:1 XF17 to X-16 gloss purple!) 

this is the mix vs Elliot chip in low sun

51479452803_c3dbccfbef_b.jpg50621068 by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

 

 

I then bought some new 10  jars in the last year, and XF-17 is now a very dark  blue.  

 

This is not batch variations, but a totally different color.     I have read of other Tamiya XF colors being changed as well,  so an old mix will no longer work.

 

19 hours ago, Mycapt65 said:

Those paints varied from supplier to supplier.

quote from here, by the owner and researcher of Colourcoats paints, who has made up samples of Royal Navy paint from archive formula.

 

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235078859-accuracy-of-ammo-by-mig-jiménez-raf-wwii-colours/page/3/#elControls_4045174_menu

 

"I'm going to point out some facts about real-life paint manufacture and either the reader will understand and "get it" or will not understand and are in no position to contradict me.

 

1) Usually camouflage colours are fairly low saturation colours because these blend in better with nature. They're seldom bright and bold. Low saturation colours are normally manufactured by adding coloured pigments to a base made from inexpensive white or white and black pigments.

 

2) Colour pigments are expensive. The expense varies depending on the specific pigment, but they're expensive.

 

3) The only way to over-saturate a colour so much is to substantially over-dose your base with the expensive colour pigments. I'm not talking about a few percent more or less - that causes minor differences which you only confirm the presence of with one swatch adjacent to another - I'm talking more in the order of a double dose to get something you obviously look at and think "woah".

 

4) In the case of colours like dark olive, these are mostly white, black and ochre (which is relatively inexpensive for a colour pigment) sometimes further tinted with a bit of red or green (which are often very expensive).

 

5) There can certainly be variances in a manufactured paint, but these tend to be greatly overstated, i.e. used as a ready made excuse for all sorts of mistakes. Ultimately, the only way a manufactured paint can end up so oversaturated is to have dumped in a vast amount of the expensive pigments, if not adding in new additional pigments in large quantities not expected in the recipe. Frankly, it's difficult to see how any manufactured paint could end up so drastically off target, particularly in the over-saturated sense, by any business that wasn't actively trying to bankrupt itself by roasting through obscene quantities of pigments like chrome green which were already expensive at the start of the war and in particularly short supply during.

 

6) I'd venture that most of the "there was a war on, you know" type apologists for such spectacular errors probably don't have any actual experience of what is and isn't possible when mixing different proportions of 2,3 or 4 pigments when 2 of those are usually black and white just to make your base to tint. You simply cannot end up with a Humbrol 30-esque bluish green using only the ingredients to make olive - i.e. you'd actually have to sabotage it by introducing if not blue then an obviously bluish green. Same goes for that bright green Spitfire above - you can't achieve that with black, white, ochre and a touch of red - you'd need to fire in a lot of bright green pigment in to get that saturated on an overly-light base. It would be more tan-like just using the basic olive green ingredients which only turns obviously olive when tinted enough with black. Put another way, with a fixed number of pigments in various ratios you WILL end up somewhere within a certain envelope, and usually when colours like this bright green are discussed it's because it's well outside that envelope.

 

The point of all the above? In essence it's harder to make a credible explanation for how such a colour might have been arrived at in a real-life paint manufacturing environment than it is to demonstrate that someone would have had to go to a lot of trouble to get it so far wrong. That is harder to rationalise than just getting it closer to correct."

 

Perhaps the most insightful bit of information about wartime paint I have seen on here.    While is the US there is the wildcard of Olive Drab,  in the case of the Navy sea blues, they are tinted grays, I don't know what the color pigments were,  but we are talking about vast quantities of paint made in the USA during the war.

 

19 hours ago, Mycapt65 said:

Then weathered poorly. That's why ANA 623 was reformulated in 1947. Leave the color spectra graph home and just use what looks right to you.

good points Ron.... but

But as for what looks right?  Actual decent wartime images are in color are rare,   I was rather surprised at the chips in the Elliot US Navy camo book,  in particular ANA 623,  @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies described it well as a "deep smoky blue",  I think @Casey  as said the wartime sea blues are more greys than blue,  while they are often represented by the version of ANA623 that later became FS15042,  which has a deep green hue  to it.

 

These threads at best are about trying to pin down the standard,  so you can adjust to suit,  how you represent colors is your choice,  personally I have learnt an incredible amount about actual colors from this, as well as great appreciation for how carefully selected the actual colors were, and I'm still learning.

 

cheers

T

 

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58 minutes ago, Casey said:

No, i meant the formula that goes on the leading edges (ANA 607, mislabled ANA 606).

But I did the math of this:

 

     2 x XF-8 Flat Blue
     2 x XF-50 Field Blue
     2 x XF-17 Sea Blue
     L* 30.34 a* -1.06, b* -6.73
     RGB: #424852
     LRV = 6.75

 

That is already too bright. ANA607 has LAB of 27.94, -3.16, -7.24 coordinates. By adding white it wont get darker.

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1 hour ago, Casey said:

I do not have decanted Tamiya white primer...

You could also use Tamiya flat white. I only use the white surface primer because it's more heavily pigmented and i love its sanding properties.

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5 minutes ago, David H said:

You could also use Tamiya flat white.

Here:

     2 x XF-8 Flat Blue
     2 x XF-50 Field Blue
     2 x XF-17 Sea Blue
     4 x XF-2 Flat White
     L* 38.42 a* -2.69, b* -10.76
     RGB: #4F5C6C
     LRV = 11.07

 

That gives >11 DE color difference. Everything >3.0 is rather a poor match. >10 is not even in the same ballpark.

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@David H

 

Hard to say without seeing it next to ANA623 but from photo on your Blue Test 040 it looks much closer to what it is in the Elliot book (almost black deep dirty blue).

 

I like your model!

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