1/24 Hawker Tornado 2nd Prototype, P5224. A difficult conversion

[Troy Tyler]

Hey all modellers, my name is Troy and this will be my first post on here following through this, imo, jank process of making a one-off 1/24 Hawker Tornado, specifically, P5224

 This is being constructed by a 20 year old who is obsessed with kit building but only has the most basic of tools plus a 3d printer. I started this project late last year so this is a catchup of sorts. Props to @Troy Smith for putting the idea up to post it here. Enjoy!

 

It must've started from this and the fact I have a handful of Typhoon kits in the stash ready for action

From then I bought two 1/24 Merlin engines and, well, cut them down the crank line and smushed them together, along with other bits of plastic like a Citroen injector sleeve (the reduction gear housing) I did use diagrams and measurements to make sure it actually is scale accurate to a Vulture. A RR Vulture which is two RR Peregrines, being a RR Kestrel that is lengthend to take two sets of conrods.

Trying to figure what pipe went where and how things should look isn't too easy when old scans and one drawing is all you have but I think it worked out out okay

Now this is where the Tornado really started.  I wanted to make the truck and Sabre engine diorama so naturally I did but now I've opened the Typhoon box so naturally I need to finish it now

So now it has began, starting off wings spars and cockpit tubing which was already removed for the previous project as well as cutting the wings up where the 3inch (3mm to scale) drop should be

The first bit of scratch building was the quite different cockpit up the front. Thank goodness for the Valiant series Typhoon book

It wasn't really meant to be a super serious project but seeing as this is probably the only model of a Vulture and only 24 scale Tornado I thought, maybe I should do this good

I found that after taking out the Sabre and it's relative supporting structure, that the kit sort of falls apart in that there aren't many places to glue. The instructions were vaguely being followed but the rest was just figuring out how to make it work. Lots of calculator and ruler work

More recently, I was finally getting somewhere.  The wings are 3mm lower from their mountings but also 5mm back from there mounting as I discovered after something wasn't lining up. Something I don't think is documented

The pencil line on the belly shows the change in positions quite well. Visible also is the replacement forward wing spar and the gaps where new sheet will put to make the iconic flattish bottom of the Tornado

Following the repeated removal and fitting of the engine to make it "right", I was on to the accessories which obviously needed modifying, this being the coolant trunks on the side of the radiator

The exhausts needed cutting down as they protruded too far of the cowlings. The cowlings, canopy hood and propeller unit are all 3d printed. Some technology it is, brilliant piece of hardware if you can use it right which my younger brother Eddy is especially good with.

 

This is where we are now. No photos show the mount bracket for the radiator so it's anyone's guess as to how they mounted it. Just one photo of the cowlings removed is found unless there are more *plezz*

The Rotol propeller, which, from what I can see, is 100% spot on with size. This has a 14Ft diameter to the point when scaled up

Edited February 3, 2024 by Troy Tyler

[woody37]

Looking forwards to this, a brave move with so much plastic! 

[Troy Tyler]

35 minutes ago, woody37 said:

Looking forwards to this, a brave move with so much plastic! 

Honestly so am I. Lots of plastic everywhere, shavings and parts. Brave or just loony 🤪

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, Troy Tyler said:

to post it here.

Glad you made it here, I think you will find a lot of interest.  

 

@stevehnz  did have scans of the drawings in Air Classics at one point, which you said you hadn't got.

 

In previous threads @brewerjerry  @Work In Progress  @Graham Boak  have all pitched in with comments when wing position got discussed

1 hour ago, Troy Tyler said:

The wings are 3mm lower from their mountings but also 5mm back from there mounting as I discovered after something wasn't lining up. Something I don't think is documented

The lower wing is, being further back isn't.

 

@tomprobert  is one for large scale kit works.   @Chris Thomas   is a man who writes books on these Hawker beasts.

 

One point, the site search is not very good, but adding Britmodeller into a google search works well...   I'll dig out previous threads when I get chance.

 

HTH

Cheers

T

[Work In Progress]

I've never seen the wing being further back on the fuselage, but then I've never really looked for it because it never occurred to me visually and is not reported in any reference I've ever seen. Lower down on the fuselage (or, put another way, the fuselage being mounted higher on the wing) is both visually discernible and well documented. So I'm not going to deny the possibility of fore and aft changes in engine position, though I would be very interested in hearing what forced you to that conclusion. Logically of course what we're talking about is the wing being moved forward for the Typhoon, not back for the Tornado, as the Tornado was the first iteration on the drawing board.  According to the sources I can readily find online there is only about 100lb difference in engine weight, so I can't explain it that way. 

 

Either way, well and bravely done so far. The engine is a tour-de-force.

 

I don't think I would have the brass neck to try this. I did it once starting with a Monogram 1/48 kit but you can get away with murder with that given the relative simplicity and the thickness  strength of the plastic in relation to the overall size of the model.

 

Edited January 28, 2024 by Work In Progress

[Troy Tyler]

45 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

Glad you made it here, I think you will find a lot of interest.  

 

@stevehnz  did have scans of the drawings in Air Classics at one point, which you said you hadn't got.

 

In previous threads @brewerjerry  @Work In Progress  @Graham Boak  have all pitched in with comments when wing position got discussed

The lower wing is, being further back isn't.

 

@tomprobert  is one for large scale kit works.   @Chris Thomas   is a man who writes books on these Hawker beasts.

 

One point, the site search is not very good, but adding Britmodeller into a google search works well...   I'll dig out previous threads when I get chance.

 

HTH

Cheers

T

Yes the wing being lower is the documented part I meant. Two fighter designs ordered at the same time:P one being the R fighter and the other N fighter as we know so basically two identical airframes with changes in mountings due to the engine and that you cant put mountings under a Vulture 

 

 Any other reference would not only be useful but also just nice to look at.

 Cheers T.T

[Troy Tyler]

29 minutes ago, Work In Progress said:

I've never seen the wing being further back on the fuselage, but then I've never really looked for it because it never occurred to me visually and is not reported in any reference I've ever seen. Lower down on the fuselage (or, put another way, the fuselage being mounted higher on the wing) is both visually discernible and well documented. So I'm not going to deny the possibility of fore and aft changes in engine position, though I would be very interested in hearing what forced you to that conclusion. Logically of course what we're talking about is the wing being moved forward for the Typhoon, not back for the Tornado, as the Tornado was the first iteration on the drawing board.  According to the sources I can readily find online there is only about 100lb difference in engine weight, so I can't explain it that way. 

 

Either way, well and bravely done so far. The engine is a tour-de-force.

 

I don't think I would have the brass neck to try this. I did it once starting with a Monogram 1/48 kit but you can get away with murder with that given the relative simplicity and the thickness  strength of the plastic in relation to the overall size of the model.

 

The wing horizontal positing was something that never occurred to me either at first. The build was only using that 3inch drop in mind but when I got hold of the AIrframe & Miniature book on the Typhoon and Tornado it was to much staring at the photo that, in relation to the positon of the exhaust manifold, engine bearers and the main wing spar panel line which is the same on the Typhoon showed that it would not line up unless I moved the wing back 5mm. Once I moved the wing back that small amount, suddenly all the bits lined up perfectly.

 

I couldn't say what part of my brain said this is a great idea but who knows, all I do know is my work table is a pigs' sty and there's a Tornado of sorts being constructed 

[stevehnz]

@Troy Tyler, if you'd like a copy of the Air Classics article that @Troy Smith mentions above, PM me with your email address & I'll get it away. 

Steve.

[Pete in Lincs]

I have a very large picture of a Tornado. I think it is P5224, That I found at RAF Halton back in the seventies. 

It was being thrown out along with a similar sized in flight shot of an early Vulcan taken by a famous period photographer whose name has escaped me.

 

This is a very ambitious project and you have my admiration for tackling it.

[Troy Tyler]

9 hours ago, stevehnz said:

@Troy Tyler, if you'd like a copy of the Air Classics article that @Troy Smith mentions above, PM me with your email address & I'll get it away. 

Steve.

Sounds like a plan, I'll shoot it over

[Troy Tyler]

8 hours ago, Pete in Lincs said:

I have a very large picture of a Tornado. I think it is P5224, That I found at RAF Halton back in the seventies. 

It was being thrown out along with a similar sized in flight shot of an early Vulcan taken by a famous period photographer whose name has escaped me.

 

This is a very ambitious project and you have my admiration for tackling it.

I like the sound of that, very fortunate it was saved. Is this something you'd share or so?

You're welcome, with how it's coming along, suffice to say I'm pleased but still have the fuselage flattening to do 

Edited January 29, 2024 by Troy Tyler
Extra info

[Pete in Lincs]

Troy, I will share once I find them. I must have put them somewhere safe. I've looked this morning but no joy so far! I'll keep looking though.

The picture is on line BTW. It's a shot of the Port side. Just search the Airframe number.

[wellsprop]

I'm looking forward to this! 

[Troy Smith]

46 minutes ago, Pete in Lincs said:

It's a shot of the Port side.

this one?

 

I'd not noticed the round bulge in the gear door before either.

Typhoon

 

the comment on a repositioned wing 

Tornado

Typhoon

 

Tornado pics from here

https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/uk/raf/tornado/

 

 

regarding wing being further back?

 

The Tornado wing is lower,  so fillet is longer as lower down fuselage?

 

I need to dig out my reference folder.

 

HTH

[Pete in Lincs]

That might be the one. I'll carry on looking!

[Troy Tyler]

Next little change to be made.

 Converting the 5 spoke to 4 spoke, should be fairly straightforward

[Troy Tyler]

Less than an hour later and my chair breaking, I have these

[Pete in Lincs]

Finally found the pictures in a Dutch 80's supermarket bag behind a bookcase! So much for memory, but it is probably 25 years since I last saw them . I have the one you posted above of P5216, an early Typhoon. Ah well. The 'Vulcan' pic turns out to be a Victor!

[Graham Boak]

There are some nice Tornado photos in the first Wingleader book on the Typhoon, including a good view of the underside showing the difference in what is visible of the fuselage underside below the wing.

[Troy Tyler]

3 hours ago, Pete in Lincs said:

Finally found the pictures in a Dutch 80's supermarket bag behind a bookcase! So much for memory, but it is probably 25 years since I last saw them . I have the one you posted above of P5216, an early Typhoon. Ah well. The 'Vulcan' pic turns out to be a Victor!

Ah that's no problem, memory is memory. Your last sighting is older than me haha

[Troy Tyler]

1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

There are some nice Tornado photos in the first Wingleader book on the Typhoon, including a good view of the underside showing the difference in what is visible of the fuselage underside below the wing.

Definitely some great shots of it. One being the engine photo which was a godsend In knowing where the engine should be in relation to firewall distance and lining the front wing spar line up, in turn, forcing me to push the wing back

[Troy Tyler]

Update as of last night. Undercarriage not fixed  yet but its more of a test shot. I've added the strange bulge on the covers out of a blob of super glue

[Graham Boak]

That seems a bit far forward to be the front spar, which would normally be around 25%.  I initially thought it a reflection.  However given the large wheel wells, perhaps not.  This would however suggest that the Tornado may have been a bit nose-heavy and less stable in pitch than the Typhoon.  (Given the same tailplanes,  or is this another "hidden" difference?)  Regarding the Typhoon as a (slightly) later design, could this be regarded as a deliberate improvement?  The Hurricane could already have been recognised as too much the other way, a too-aft cg.

[Troy Tyler]

2 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

That seems a bit far forward to be the front spar, which would normally be around 25%.  I initially thought it a reflection.  However given the large wheel wells, perhaps not.  This would however suggest that the Tornado may have been a bit nose-heavy and less stable in pitch than the Typhoon.  (Given the same tailplanes,  or is this another "hidden" difference?)  Regarding the Typhoon as a (slightly) later design, could this be regarded as a deliberate improvement?  The Hurricane could already have been recognised as too much the other way, a too-aft cg.

 Here's a shot of what I've come up with, it'll never be perfect, not least with my abilities but here.

Taken from the same angle as the photo with the front wing spar line. Although not 100% trustworthy, the 3d printed cowlings which are scaled correctly to what is also on the Typhoon and they all end at the right point.  

[Troy Tyler]

2 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Tornado may have been a bit nose-heavy and less stable in pitch than the Typhoon.

Not sure if this refers to the same issue but it does state "Lucas reported that the aircraft was even more directionally unstable with the chin radiator"