Jump to content

Help - Ship in Water Diorama Advice


Recommended Posts

Is anyone aware of what speed (roughly) a tribal and fletcher class destroyers would be sailing whilst engaging in anti-submarine warefare?

 

From what I have read and have understood there is a great deal of difference in fuel consumption and machine wear in relation to speed (knots) undertaken by destroyers and ships in general where the higher the speed the exponential increase in power required and  resultant increase in fuel consumption.

 

I'm going to attempt to model a tribal and fletcher class destroyers sailing at 'kill the sub speeds', roaring around laying a carpet of depth charge 'presents' to German / IJN subs beneath respectively.

 

I'm still building up steam and waiting for more bits to arrive (I have the trumpeter and tamiya kits at hand but not all the ancillaries - additional upgrade kits of pe and resin printed stuff and some books so that the models actually represent the ships of early / mid war) and all this stuff is adding up to just a little more than the original kits and I don't want to mess about and produce something that isn't spot on, so some steerage on what speed and thus the scale and scope of the wake I need to model and wether the ship is running straight or turning and or weaving to be over the top of the sub so as to lay depth charges as effectively as they could at the time and such would be greatly appreciated.

 

As I imagine that the destroyer would have a standard pattern of movement over the sub so that at each pass over the sub the weapons were ready and aimed / prepped at that meet point to ensure that they weren't either randomly chucking munitions into the sea or over the target and not ready to fire.

 

I'm pretty sure (even as a novice with no ship or sailing knowledge) that ships hunting subs did not want to be close / underneath the depth charge as it went off or make life difficult for themselves by manoeuvring in a way that meant more time (than was necessary) to move the ship/s and it's weapons onto the target efficiently in relation to fuel, timing, reloading / correct depth settings and such in relation to sonar gubbins) and therefore have a steer as to what they would result too in terms of how I position the ship and weapons either flying through the air for a hedgehog or rolled of the end of the ship on others with maybe the ship them immediately turning hard to one side so as to avoid being blown to smitherines by its own ordinance and then being in a timely position over the target after previous explosions and reacuistion of target and adjustment of settings and reloading to send more 'presents' on target.

 

Thanks in advance!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, Bill1974 said:

Is anyone aware of what speed (roughly) a tribal and fletcher class destroyers would be sailing whilst engaging in anti-submarine warefare?

That would rather depend on what they were doing - patrolling or escorting a convoy they would be running at economical cruising speed/convoy advance speed or slightly higher say 10-12 knots. Manouvring around the convoy or screening a bit faster say 15-18 knots. Investigating a contact they'd be working up speed say 20-25 knots, and persuing an attack possibly working up to max speed 36 knots for a tribal.

As you say, more speed = more power = higher fuel consumption  - double your speed and your fuel consumption is likely to be squared.

High speed wasn't always an advantage when prosecuting a submarine attack as Asdic became less effective at higher speeds, and also it couldn't look down so as they got closer and faster the less accurate the asdic became, but as you were losing the contact return you needed to be speeding up to get to the predicted position asap. If dropping a depth charge pattern using throwers to each side and charges dropped off the stern you'd also want to be moving fast to clear the blast from the charges.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Totally agree with @Dave Swindell's comments above about speed for ASW.  Even in more modern ASW escorts, anything above about 18 kts means that the flow noise past the sonar array coupled with own ship machinery noise means that sonar is effectively useless.  That was one of the reasons why Captain Johnny Walker came up with his tactics often using a tracking ship and an attacking ship.  One stayed quiet at low speed and reported the submarine while another ship used her speed advantage over the submarine to manoeuvre into a weapon release position.

 

The other observation I would make about seascapes that I see in so many at various models shows, is that for the most part, sea is not blue.  In the North Atlantic it's a murky green/grey.

 

Most often if I want to portray motion, I use plaster of Paris as the sea.  Get the hull assembled and then create the base.  Build a balsa wood frame around it and then fill it with the plaster and create the main swell/wave pattern..  Wrap the hull in clingfilm and place it in the plaster.  While the plaster is still wet, use toothpicks or coffee stirrers to tease out the plaster to form the bow wave, Kelvin wake etc and then leave the model in the plaster while it sets.  But work quickly as some can set in as little as 6-7 minutes.  Be warned though, like resin it dries with an exothermic reaction so if you are not careful, the faster setting variants can start to warp the hull.  My most extreme version of that is my part complete 1/600 HMS ALACRITY in a South Atlantic Storm Force 12 that we experienced en-route from the Falklands to South Georgia 40 years ago this month.  Note that this base is only partially painted and the hull in the base is not the one I shall be using - this is an old one that had already been waterlined just to show the effect.

 

49541291823_ef20b45385_b.jpg

 

Gentler versions that have used this technique include 1/600 HMS GLAMORGAN on 13 June 1982 at slow speed in Choiseul Sound en-route a rendezvous with the maintenance ship MV Stena Seaspread

 

17342601495_e05dc54906_b.jpg

(though note I have not got the wake pattern right on this.  I made it many moons ago)

 

1/600 HMS GLASGOW (converted from the Airfix BELFAST) in Romdalsfjord in Norway on 29 April 1940 whilst en-route to Tromso with King Haakon and Crown Prince Olav of Norway, and part of the Norwegian gold reserves.

 

34717796603_1fb848c924_b.jpg

 

And a scratch built 1/350 HMS BULOLO where I have broken my golden rule of not having a blue sea!  My father served in BULOLO in 1945/46 when she was deployed to South East Asia and I did manage to find photographic evidence to support a blue sea in that part of the world!

 

50382563123_bdff875f22_b.jpg

 

If I'm portraying a ship alongside or at anchor in a calm sea, I now favour the polystyrene covered with tissue paper with watered down PVA method.  I'm currently half way through a base for HMA No 1 - Mayfly - which uses that technique and I'll be posting photos shortly.  In the meantime, this is 1/600 HMS LONDONDERRY alongside in Gibraltar in September 1983

 

52879848394_15ea8a1cac_b.jpg

 

Hope that helps

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

Totally agree with @Dave Swindell's comments above about speed for ASW.  Even in more modern ASW escorts, anything above about 18 kts means that the flow noise past the sonar array coupled with own ship machinery

 

Thanks for your input, I really appreciate your comments. You are obviously very knowledagble and have invaluable modelling experience too.

 

I have a number of bits and bobs coming from eBay winging its way from around the world as sadly I couldn't find stuff in the UK.

 

I will take a good look at your work that is on Britmodeller and hopefully learn a great deal.

 

A number of books I've ordered have arrived to and will help me in getting the models right and fill my 'hold' with history and information.

 

Tribal class books - Tribals, Battles and Darlings by Alexander Clarke / Destroyer Cossack by John Roberts (I'm really looking forward to feasting my eyes in all those technical drawings as I used to be an Architectural Technologist) / British Destroyers Ship Craft 11 by Les Brown. 

 

And for the Fletcher class books I have Fletcher Class Destroyers by Alan Raven and on order Fletcher Class Destroyers Ship Craft 8 by Lester Abbey and Fletcher DD's in Action by Jerry Scutts.

 

In the meantime all the stuff I have on order will be slowly winging its way to me I have alot to read and swot up on.

 

When I have modelled AFV's and such they are easier as they are more accurately represented where from what I can see ships in particular and aircraft are a different proposition and takes some additional tinkering.  Something I am looking forward to.

 

Fortunately as I have a tribal and a fletcher on the go I will be able to model the somewhat dull North Atlantic sea and the more vibrant Pacific ocean.

 

My sincere thanks for everyone's input. 🤓 👍

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 04/02/2024 at 16:26, Bill1974 said:

When I have modelled AFV's and such they are easier as they are more accurately represented where from what I can see ships in particular and aircraft are a different proposition and takes some additional tinkering.  Something I am looking forward to.

That is what I find so fascinating - but at the same time somewhat annoying - about ship modelling.  AFVs and aircraft are generally built on a production line to a standard design in hours/days, and end up in the hands of front line users in more or less exactly the same state a everyone else.  Then they update the model and either start again or modify them all to the new design.  Occasionally you will get specific to role/mission equipment added that only appears on one or a few platforms.

 

By contrast, even though there may be a standard design for a class of ship, every one built is unique.  Because generally they take months/years to build, each one changes during the build, and then they individually come back in for refits and docking periods where more unique changes are made.  For that reason, I like to ensure that I have contemporaneous photos of the ship on the day that I am building her.  For example, BULOLO seen above started off as a mail/passenger liner for the Australian-Papua New Guinea run.  She was requisitioned by the RN from her owners in 1939 and converted into an Armed Merchant Cruiser (AMC) for convoy escort work with a mix of 6 and 3-inch guns.  In 1942 she was converted again into a Landing Ship Headquarters and most of her AMC armament removed.  She supported the landings in North Africa and in Italy in that configuration before another refit prepared her for Operation Neptune commanding the landings on Gold Beach.  In the autumn of 1944, she went back in for a final refit which changed her configuration again before she deployed to the Far East in support of the planned invasion of Burma and became the Flagship of Lord Louis Mountbatten which was when my father served on board.

 

There are a plethora of photos of BULOLO available but as far as I could tell, only two or three represented her as she was in 1945, and only one that I could state categorically came from that period.

 

So I would say, pick which hull you are going to represent from each class, pick a date and/or a mission you are going to portray, and then research, research, research!  But there is a wealth of knowledge on here who are always willing to help,

Edited by Chewbacca
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello all.

 

After alot of reading and swatting on wakes and ordering a huge amount of stuff, gels / mediums (which does sound rather a little too Luvy Luvy... 'Oh, I know darling, it's divine...' as I am from working class stock and proud of it, none of this strolling around art galleries trying to act all grown up and sophosticated, darling) / paints etc I have decided to start a practice Sub water Dio as below.

 

 

I hope to learn and experiment and follow you folks lead in making something really cool 😎 (hopefully)

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 04/02/2024 at 15:47, ArnoldAmbrose said:

Gidday @Chewbacca, these are all nicely done. It seems that your trip from the Falklands to South Georgia was a nice smooth pleasant trip. I hope you all kept your dinners down. 🤢

Regards, Jeff.

if in doubt, eat bacon.  Only thing I ever found that tasted the same both ways :laugh:

 

I'll get m'coat

  • Haha 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...