bigbadbadge Posted January 2, 2024 Posted January 2, 2024 Hi all I wonder if if there is anyone that knows the interior colour for the cockpit of the Fleet Finch Trainer . I can see online the Canadian Warplane Heritage machine which is a light grey, but I wondered if during WW2 the cockpit interior would have been interior grey green. There is a Fleet Fawn online and that one has a grey green interior. I might have to consider modelling a Fawn too, looks incredibly sweet. Thank you in advance Chris
Work In Progress Posted January 2, 2024 Posted January 2, 2024 (edited) The specific CWH example was completely civilianised in a major rebuild in 1962, and probably got its new interior colour then. In the absence of hard photographic proof to the contrary I would go with grey-green as the RCAF was the original customer for the 16 and 16a, so it's reasonable to assume they were ordered and delivered to the standard service colours inside and out. Edited January 2, 2024 by Work In Progress 1
bigbadbadge Posted January 2, 2024 Author Posted January 2, 2024 59 minutes ago, Work In Progress said: The specific CWH example was completely civilianised in a major rebuild in 1962, and probably got its new interior colour then. In the absence of hard photographic proof to the contrary I would go with grey-green as the RCAF was the original customer for the 16 and 16a, so it's reasonable to assume they were ordered and delivered to the standard service colours inside and out. Brilliant, that is just the nudge in the right direction I was after, thank you so much for replying. I might have to get another as the parts are included for the inline engine Fleet 10 or Fawn which looks lovely too. Thanks for your help, really appreciated. Chris 1
Work In Progress Posted January 2, 2024 Posted January 2, 2024 Is this the Ffrom-Azur kit you are working on? 1
JWM Posted January 2, 2024 Posted January 2, 2024 All photos I have found in net shows light (natural linen?) color of covering fabric, similar light construction tubes and silver-grey small metal elements https://www.jeffstephensonphotographyshop.ca/cdn/shop/products/FleetFinchInstructorCockpit_1200x.jpg?v=1635205996 https://www.jeffstephensonphotographyshop.ca/products/fleet-finch-mk-ii-student-cockpit https://www.flightjournal.com/fleet-finch-classic-ww-ii-canadian-trainer/ https://www.silverhawkauthor.com/post/canadian-warplanes-2-fleet-fawn-and-fleet-finch-trainers The green came later, for all metal machines after initial bare alu colors... Regards J-W
bigbadbadge Posted January 2, 2024 Author Posted January 2, 2024 59 minutes ago, Work In Progress said: Is this the Ffrom-Azur kit you are working on? Yes it certainly is, looks to be a nice kit. 31 minutes ago, JWM said: All photos I have found in net shows light (natural linen?) color of covering fabric, similar light construction tubes and silver-grey small metal elements https://www.jeffstephensonphotographyshop.ca/cdn/shop/products/FleetFinchInstructorCockpit_1200x.jpg?v=1635205996 https://www.jeffstephensonphotographyshop.ca/products/fleet-finch-mk-ii-student-cockpit https://www.flightjournal.com/fleet-finch-classic-ww-ii-canadian-trainer/ https://www.silverhawkauthor.com/post/canadian-warplanes-2-fleet-fawn-and-fleet-finch-trainers The green came later, for all metal machines after initial bare alu colors... Regards J-W Hi Jerzy Thanks to you, I had looked at those, and they are of the restored Aircraft as I think I read in one of the captions. I was initially thinking it would be grey green as for military training and the light grey is a repaint at restoration. I could be wrong but there is no colour coding on kit instructions was looking for a few days without any other joy apart from a Fleet Fawn which did have the grey green cockpit and after what Work in Progress said was happy to go along that route. I have seen another one being restored and the fuselage tubing was Aluminium coloured wire the panel in front of this covering in Grey green too however this is another restoration too. That last link shows a great photo which does look the lighter colour too with the Aluminium tubing, which may confirm the lighter colour, crikey, what a tin of worms . I will have a good think and a further study. Thanks guys really appreciate your input and time Chris 2
Work In Progress Posted January 2, 2024 Posted January 2, 2024 Sadly the only available pilot notes I can find from the RCAF WW2 training era are both (understandably) skimpy and visually unhelpful, as instead of the British and US standard cockpit photography they resort to line drawings http://fleet-club.com/ifc/Archives_files/Pilot's Notes.pdf 1
bigbadbadge Posted January 2, 2024 Author Posted January 2, 2024 7 minutes ago, Work In Progress said: Sadly the only available pilot notes I can find from the RCAF WW2 training era are both (understandably) skimpy and visually unhelpful, as instead of the British and US standard cockpit photography they resort to line drawings http://fleet-club.com/ifc/Archives_files/Pilot's Notes.pdf Thank you, that is a shame, thanks for posting though it is very interesting. Have you seen the last image in Jerzey's Post showing a black and white cockpit image, the framing is Aluminium coloured which would possibly date to an earlier time as not the overall grey of the restored Aircraft which is very interesting. Chris
Work In Progress Posted January 2, 2024 Posted January 2, 2024 19 minutes ago, bigbadbadge said: Have you seen the last image in Jerzey's Post showing a black and white cockpit image, the framing is Aluminium coloured which would possibly date to an earlier time as not the overall grey of the restored Aircraft which is very interesting. That says on the caption it is a Fawn from 1932, so while it is interesting in itself I struggle to see it as relevant evidence to the Finch procurement which, as I understand it, was from 1940 onwards. RAF aircraft in service in 1932 weren't using interior grey/green either. 1
bigbadbadge Posted January 2, 2024 Author Posted January 2, 2024 1 minute ago, Work In Progress said: That says on the caption it is a Fawn from 1932, so while it is interesting in itself I struggle to see it as relevant evidence to the Finch procurement which, as I understand it, was from 1940 onwards. RAF aircraft in service in 1932 weren't using interior grey/green either. That is a good point, I must admit to missing that and the Fawn and Finch images seem to all come together when searching. That has certainly taken my doubts away again and will go for the grey green . Thanks again Chris
JWM Posted January 2, 2024 Posted January 2, 2024 The subject is interesti g for me as well, I have both engines Azur Frrom Fleets in stash... 1
bigbadbadge Posted January 2, 2024 Author Posted January 2, 2024 46 minutes ago, JWM said: The subject is interesti g for me as well, I have both engines Azur Frrom Fleets in stash... They look nice kits Jerzy, started on mine and so far is going together well, will start a WIP when I get some progress worthy of a photo. Thanks Chris 1
dogsbody Posted January 4, 2024 Posted January 4, 2024 Some interesting material from @Carl V: All of the aircraft in the photos are in the standard RCAF colouring of yellow and black. Fawn 282 with interesting wheel hub covers. Note – the name Fawn was only allotted to the type in 1940 but I will use it in. Fawns, 213 and 230,one with brake-equipped undercarriage, the other without. 27 August 1937. this evocative photo shows Fawn 203 of 111 (CAC) Squadron refuelling at Flood, BC, on a cross-country exercise, 9 June 1939. Float-equipped Fawn197 at RCAF Rockcliffe, 12 June 1940. Fawn 280 on skis. The only Fleet 7G with its Gipsy III during the very few months that it remained in this configuration before being reconverted. Apparently, this aircraft was regarded as an engine testbed. Finch 4710 baring an unusual dual serial application. While Finch 4581 does not appear to have any unusual characteristics, the pilot trainee in front is David Hornell who was to be awarded a Victoria Cross in 1944. The cockpits of a Finch II photographed at RCAF Trenton, 7 April 1941. The prototype Finch winterization. I have the TDE report and photographs describing this installation. I used this photograph as the basis for a humorous [???] article devoted to a hitherto unknown RCAF project entitled Project OATS ( Ox Assisted Takeoff System). As with all of my stuff, anybody who wants it is welcome to it. Just let me know. Carl Chris, for Carl 4 1
bigbadbadge Posted January 4, 2024 Author Posted January 4, 2024 Wow thanks Chris @dogsbody and Carl. That is most kind the interior photo is very helpful, I can see some of the tubular framework is silver and I can see two colours in the side walls ? The foam on the fronts of the IPs is very interesting and unusual and can I ask what the tank is under the front cockpit IP . Thanks ever so much for posting these. All the best Chris
alt-92 Posted January 4, 2024 Posted January 4, 2024 50 minutes ago, dogsbody said: basis for a humorous [???] article devoted to a hitherto unknown RCAF project entitled Project OATS ( Ox Assisted Takeoff System). Was that on vintagewings.ca by any chance? They've reorganised the site rather thorougly and all my previous article links are now dead. Must have missed that one, I always loved the April 1st specials.
marvinneko Posted January 8, 2024 Posted January 8, 2024 @bigbadbadge I took pix of the Finch at the Canadian Air and Space Museum last October. It was suspended so I was below it. Any interest? 1
bigbadbadge Posted January 8, 2024 Author Posted January 8, 2024 50 minutes ago, marvinneko said: @bigbadbadge I took pix of the Finch at the Canadian Air and Space Museum last October. It was suspended so I was below it. Any interest? Hi David, thank you very much yes please as it might show brake lines and underwing actuators etc. No rush though as still doing cockpits 🙄 amongst other builds, mainly that Beaufighter!!! Thanks for the kind offer. Chris
JWM Posted January 8, 2024 Posted January 8, 2024 On 1/4/2024 at 9:18 PM, dogsbody said: Carl and Chris, many thanks for this set of photos! There are three different types of radial engines on display. Am I right? On initial shots we have seven cylinders on display, the float equipped machine "197" has, a five cylinder one but with a exhaust collector on front and on remain photos (machines with four digit numbers) there are also five cylinders but with collector at rear side. Any comment on this possible? Regards J-W
dogsbody Posted January 8, 2024 Posted January 8, 2024 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleet_Fawn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleet_Finch Chris 1
marvinneko Posted January 8, 2024 Posted January 8, 2024 I apologize for the quality and size of these images. I didn't have my DSLR with me so I relied on the wife's iPhone-- and the museum has a real lighting and glare problem... and an organization problem too-- meaning I can't get close to anything. I am linking to fullsize to allow for zooming in. 2 1
KRK4m Posted January 8, 2024 Posted January 8, 2024 (edited) 22 hours ago, JWM said: There are three different types of radial engines on display. Am I right? On initial shots we have seven cylinders on display, the float equipped machine "197" has, a five cylinder one but with a exhaust collector on front and on remain photos (machines with four digit numbers) there are also five cylinders but with collector at rear side. Any comment on this possible? There are even more of them. The 7-cylinder with the cylinder hanging vertically down is the British Armstrong Siddeley Civet. The identical 5-cylinder is AS Genet. Both (seen from the front) rotate clockwise. And the 5-cylinder rotating anti-clockwise is the US Kinner K-5, B-5 or R-5. As far as I remember, AS always have a rear exhaust, and Kinners come with an exhaust manifold either at the front or at the rear. Cheers Michael Edited January 9, 2024 by KRK4m 2
bigbadbadge Posted January 9, 2024 Author Posted January 9, 2024 Thanks David @marvinneko for the photos, very kind some useful details there. 18 hours ago, KRK4m said: Kinners come with an exhaust manifold either at the front or at the rear. Thanks Michael, that's interesting . I was wondering about that, as seen photos with mainly rear exhausts but David's above and one or two others online are on the front. Thanks guys Chris
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