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Meteor F8 Camo colours.


Jabba

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I am currently making the Airfix Meteor F8 and although I am making the 500 Sqn option, I am using a photo that appeared in the Dec 22 issue of Airfix Magazine which showed this aircraft in camo rather than Silver whilst retaining the colourful tail and markings. I am having difficulty making out which colour is which as the photo is in Black and White. I have seen that maos Metoers start with Dk Green on the nose, but I am not sure with this one. If someone can give a little help I will be very grateful.

 

nvD3zL6.jpg

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The colours are BS381c 241 Dark Green /BS381c 638 Dark Sea Grey Uppersurfaces,  Silver undersides The Upper camouflage pattern  was standardised  So any picture of a camoflaged meteor whatever mark would be the same. In this picture the darker  colour is green.

 

Selwyn

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I have a few Meteor books and having had a look I think I can advise as follows:-

 

Barry Jones Crowood Aviation Book  Page 94 has 2 black and white photographs of F 8's from 64 Sqn.  Making the assumption the lighter tone in the camo is grey and the darker tone is green, the one at the top has a green painted nose but the one in the lower photo is the reverse and has a much lighter paint (grey) on the nose.  The paints are similarly reversed in the two photos in the next painted camp section around the cockpit.

 

All the side profiles in SAM Modellers Datafile have camo Meteors with a green nose.  Chapter 9 on Camo and Markings sates  "Early meteors were finished in the contemporary Day Fighter Scheme.  The upper surfaces have a disruptive pattern of Dark Green and Ocean grey (MAP Shade) to a standard pattern laid out in MAP pattern 2."   Further on " Camouflage was reintroduced in December 1953 using Gloss Dark Green (BS381C;641) and Gloss Dark Sea Grey (BS381C:638). Undersides remained in Aluminium."  

 

Turning to Scale Aircraft Monographs Camo and Markings No 1 (don't have No2 - sorry) the profiles show Meteors with a green nose but in two places the work makes reference to the scheme being applied in Pattern 1  Of course they are referring to pre Dec 1953 in that work and Marks earlier than the F8

 

Lastly Roger Lindsays seminal work Cold War Shield Vol1  1950-1960 has a colour photograph Page 406 of a 610 F8 taken in 1955 on the starboard side and the nose is quite definitely grey with the next segment of the pattern in green around the cockpit area.  The photo below of four 610 Sqn aircraft  in June 1955 have them with both green and grey nose paint  - three  aircraft with a grey painted nose and one with green.  The photo between these two photos is of two 610 aircraft and shows "one of each".  Lindsay details the specifications for the Dec 1953 camouflage edict in detail and reproduces the drawing showing the schematics.  DRG. No. A.P.2210H/M.25/55 (Sheets 1,2 & 3)

 

Interestingly and perhaps conclusively he gives the following observation and perhaps your answer.

 

"Such instructions were not always exactly adhered to, and it was possible to see some Meteor 8's on which the camouflage pattern had been significantly reversed or significantly altered."  Painting was done at unit level.  Even more common was deviation on the demarcation line on the engine nacelles forward and aft the wing.  At some bases including Tangmere and Wattisham upper and lower camo was divided by a straight line and not the flowing curve as specified.  Aircraft were supposed to be stripped before the repaint but there was an opt out if facilities did not permit and over painting was allowed but due to that  adding 30lb of paint the c.g was then out and 22lb of ballast was added to resolve that issue. 

 

I suspect that does not help and can only suggest the modellers mantra.  Always look for a photograph

 

bestest

 

John

Edited by JohnT
For clarity of expression
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20 hours ago, JohnT said:

Lastly Roger Lindsays seminal work Cold War Shield Vol1  1950-1960 has a colour photograph Page 406 of a 610 F8 taken in 1955 on the starboard side and the nose is quite definitely grey with the next segment of the pattern in green around the cockpit area.  The photo below of four 610 Sqn aircraft  in June 1955 have them with both green and grey nose paint  - three  aircraft with a grey painted nose and one with green.  The photo between these two photos is of two 610 aircraft and shows "one of each".  Lindsay details the specifications for the Dec 1953 camouflage edict in detail and reproduces the drawing showing the schematics.  DRG. No. A.P.2210H/M.25/55 (Sheets 1,2 & 3)

 

"Such instructions were not always exactly adhered to, and it was possible to see some Meteor 8's on which the camouflage pattern had been significantly reversed or significantly altered."  Painting was done at unit level.  Even more common was deviation on the demarcation line on the engine nacelles forward and aft the wing.  At some bases including Tangmere and Wattisham upper and lower camo was divided by a straight line and not the flowing curve as specified.  Aircraft were supposed to be stripped before the repaint but there was an opt out if facilities did not permit and over painting was allowed but due to that  adding 30lb of paint the c.g was then out and 22lb of ballast was added to resolve that issue. 

 

Why is it you always quote from books I do not have but want now? 😉 On the list.

 

However, why would an overpaint evenly distributed over all top surfaces have any effect on the CoG? The same weight would be added to every sq in, or am I missing the obvious?

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Yep: the centre of gravity is not at the centre of area of the plan view.  It is roughly at 25% of the wing chord, there's more area aft than forward.  And in general more aft than forward in distance, as it is the balance of the moments that matters.

 

Cold War Shield is indeed a magnificent set of books, but it was privately published by Roger Lindsay and he has since died.  They may be difficult to find

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13 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Yep: the centre of gravity is not at the centre of area of the plan view.  It is roughly at 25% of the wing chord, there's more area aft than forward.  And in general more aft than forward in distance, as it is the balance of the moments that matters.

 

Cold War Shield is indeed a magnificent set of books, but it was privately published by Roger Lindsay and he has since died.  They may be difficult to find

His son did a reprint of all three. Magnificent set of books, not cheap but for me at least well worth it.  

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13 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Yep: the centre of gravity is not at the centre of area of the plan view.  It is roughly at 25% of the wing chord, there's more area aft than forward.  And in general more aft than forward in distance, as it is the balance of the moments that matters.

 

Cold War Shield is indeed a magnificent set of books, but it was privately published by Roger Lindsay and he has since died.  They may be difficult to find

OK, thanks. I was never good in physics... Not that difficult, but pretty expensive.

16 minutes ago, petetasker said:

His son did a reprint of all three. Magnificent set of books, not cheap but for me at least well worth it.  

THREE??? So far I have only found 1 and 2, and their price delivered will about equate to the JaPo Dora books 🥶

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8 hours ago, petetasker said:

His son did a reprint of all three. Magnificent set of books, not cheap but for me at least well worth it.  

 

8 hours ago, tempestfan said:

OK, thanks. I was never good in physics... Not that difficult, but pretty expensive.

THREE??? So far I have only found 1 and 2, and their price delivered will about equate to the JaPo Dora books 🥶

 

7 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Fairly close equivalents, I'd say, in terms of their value to those interested in the different subjects.  Vol.3 covers Swift, Hunter, Javelin and early Lightning.

 

 

Such a pity Vol 4  Lightning late marks, Phantom and Tornado wasn't done. :sad:.  I think he was quite ill towards the last publication or something like that??  You can see from the books the amount of work he put in.

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19 minutes ago, JohnT said:

 

 

 

 

Such a pity Vol 4  Lightning late marks, Phantom and Tornado wasn't done. :sad:.  I think he was quite ill towards the last publication or something like that??  You can see from the books the amount of work he put in.

That’s because the series covered aircraft and Sqns from 1950 to 1960.

 

Peter

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1 hour ago, dambuster said:

That’s because the series covered aircraft and Sqns from 1950 to 1960.

 

Peter

Yes. I’ve got all 3 volumes. In the intro to Vol 3 he makes it clear that he only intended 3 books. What I meant was another Vol 4 covering 1960 through the phantom would have been good. But not to be. On the other hand where would one stop. 

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3 hours ago, JohnT said:

 

 

 

 

Such a pity Vol 4  Lightning late marks, Phantom and Tornado wasn't done. :sad:.  I think he was quite ill towards the last publication or something like that??  You can see from the books the amount of work he put in.

Volume 1 ordered. 2 and 3 in sight. The benevolent hints of this site’s users are a constant cash drain. But then you only live twice…

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16 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Let us know what you think of them.  There are other modellers still in ignorance of such quality.

 

 

OK Graham, my 2 pence worth - I am sure @tempestfan will agree once he gets his hands on them.

 

when the first Volume came out I read that that it was something special but a bit expensive.  The reviews were high in praise so a birthday was coming up and I asked nicely.  Come birthday come Vol 1.  It was everything that reviewers had said and perhaps more.  When Vols 2 & 3 came out in due course the model budget got blown for a few months.   I just bought direct as a normal punter.  That didn't stop  Roger Lindsay putting a nice handwritten note inside each.

There will be more info online but each Vol has an intro from an Air Vice Marshal e.g. Vol 3 from George Black.  The format is pretty much the same.  To take Vol 3 the first 2-3 Chapters cover subjects to give background such as the political situation, the "opposition" and RAF Organisation.  There is a chapter on Camo and Markings and then the Chapters deal with squadrons by type in service so Vol 3 has chapters on the Swift, the Hunter, The Javelin and then the early Lightnings.  Each Squadron gets its story told with the type, the snags and operations and such like.  It has a section on its own individual markings and table of aircraft allocated  serial; code; arrival and departure and fate.  The photographs are nearly all black and white but there is a section on colour photos in each volume and some colour profiles

 

A random example I opened Vol 3 at Page 184 - the section on 208 Sqn on the Hunter.  What I found there runs to pages 6 and a bit A4 pages in double column so plenty info on units story and type.

 

Also when looking at my half dozen books on the Meteor to try and assist the OP none mentioned the details about the camo variations due to urgent repaints at squadron level to comply with the change back from silver/aluminium to camo - now the order of the day.  Yet it is there in detail from Roger Lindsay  in his more generalised work.

 

Out of my 400 odd aviation books I rate these in the top half dozen.  Especially if you have an interest in Cold Wr RAF Fighter Squadrons (and associated units it must be said).  They are on my list of grab it if there is a fire.

 

If you get the chance in a book shop or going at a sensible price on line then grab it when you can.  

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1 minute ago, JohnT said:

 

Also when looking at my half dozen books on the Meteor to try and assist the OP none mentioned the details about the camo variations due to urgent repaints at squadron level to comply with the change back from silver/aluminium to camo - now the order of the day.  Yet it is there in detail from Roger Lindsay  in his more generalised work.

 

 

Roger was a modeller.  Other writers weren't.

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Just now, Graham Boak said:

 

Roger was a modeller.  Other writers weren't.

 

Ah - explains a lot.  He put in a huge shift into those books.  I am truly ashamed to say I've not done a cover to cover read but I do dip in for info.  And that's not because they are not readable at all - his style is very easy.  It is just a time thing.   Then I wish I'd time to just start Vol 1 page 1 and work through of the end of Vol 3.

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To be fair on those other writers who may well have been modellers, they were trying to cover a lot more ground.  The Meteor had a long and involved design and development history, and saw service worldwide in many countries.  I haven't checked, but suspect Roger has more text and photos on 1950s RAF Meteors than any other.  Even Steven Bond's book... but that may be the exception.  Much less text per page, of course, and smaller photos, but another must for the Meteor fan.

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On 07/12/2023 at 20:37, Jabba said:

Thank you all for your replies. From what I have read, I can basically follow the Airfix instruction sheet for the camoed option, but put the DkGrey and Dk Green in reverse postions.

Yes I think you can.  All Meteors were supposed to be painted starting with a green nose segment as per the order of the day.  If Mr Lindsay is right then what happened at the level of individual units - where the return to camo work was to be done - there was seemingly the odd incorrect application of paint.  An interesting example.  Just don't open a thread on the correct application of D-Day white and black identification stripes  :rofl2:.  When I first came on Britmodeller I innocently asked about the colour schemes of Malta Spitfires :D  Another can of worms.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 07/12/2023 at 18:15, 71chally said:

I always thought that the camo colours (dark green / dark sea grey) were applied 'reversed' on a number of airframes, or is that just a myth?

No myth James especially on the RAuxAF Squadrons where the weekend Riggers had to do it - No dedicated painters in those days !!

 

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500Sqdn, TaQuali Summer Camp 1956 - Photo Flt/Sgt RW Simpkins

HTH

Dennis

 

 

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13 hours ago, sloegin57 said:

No myth James especially on the RAuxAF Squadrons where the weekend Riggers had to do it - No dedicated painters in those days !!

 

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500Sqdn, TaQuali Summer Camp 1956 - Photo Flt/Sgt RW Simpkins

HTH

Dennis

 

 

 

Were the aircraft painted at unit level? Wasn't RAF standard of the era to repaint an aircraft only when due for maintenance and therefore at a dedicated establishment?

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