1/350 Strasbourg - Treatise on Treaties - Part un (1)

[S-boat 55]

Hi All, 

 

So never being satisfied with having just three things on the go - largely because of undiagnosed attention issues - I thought i should start the build log for the next in the project of Treaty class battleships, as a reminder these are;

 

Admiral Graf Spee

Strasbourg (having built Dunkerque)

Littorio

Scharnhorst 1940

Richelieu

Prince of Wales

North Carolina

Massachusetts

 

So there is a way to go! Part of the reason to start this one is its sat out on the desk and i keep fiddling with bits for it, the other is she'll be in a light grey and i tend to do airbrush sessions so doing a painting morning on parts for Strasbourg and Graf Spee seems sensible. 

 

As some of you know, I built the namesake for this class, Dunkerque, a couple of years ago pre my aircraft carrier saga (still on going), as the idea of the project came up right at the end of the build, and as i love the look of these ships doing Strasbourg was a must. 

 

The two ships differed quite markedly in areas, but were near identical in others. The most obvious change was the layout and decks of the forward superstructure. Strasbourg was equipped to act as a fleet flagship and as such has an additional deck above the main bridge as well as further additions to aid this function higher up in the tower, making her taller than her younger sister. 

 

Due to the age and compromised designs of the older French warships at the time of the Washington naval treaty, and the loss of one ship, France was in a 'beneficial' position of being able to replace some of her older units earlier than other navies. This is good of course if conflict occurs in that period between the ships completion and the potential opponents upgrading but bad if war comes slightly later.

 

As it happened it turned out to be a bit of both for the French. There was a fast pace of change in the navies of Germany and Italy in the last 1920's/early 30's and the marine nationale saw these countries as their most likely adversaries in any war and so the design went through a series of iterations. Pre the launch of the German panzerschiffe there had been designs as small as 17,500t, others 23,500t. The conditions of the washington treaty, now followed by the London treaty allowed France to use up to 70,000t of displacement. With the launch of the Deutschland, the smaller designs were disregarded as being too lightly armoured but further consideration as given to the larger options with further upgrades.

 

The conception for the design was largely the same of course. These ships were designed with two primary purposes;

1, Counter Germany's Panzerschiffe

2, Counter Italy's older dreadnoughts and modern heavy cruisers in the Mediterranean 

 

To fulfil the first role they would need to be able to counter the 11in guns carried on the German ships and be fast enough to catch them. The designs were uprated to increased speed to 30knts or thereabouts and to carry guns greater than 12in. This and the armour deemed required for protection against the new German guns increased displacement to 26,500t, 

 

The final design was heavily influenced by the Nelson Class recently commissioned by the Royal Navy. The tower superstructure, inclined armoured belt and all forward main weapons are the most obvious things 'borrowed' from the British ships.

 

The big advantage of having the main weapons forward is it shortens the armoured citadel required, allowing thicker armour to be fitted for the same weight or less armour to reduce overall tonnage if the same thickness is kept. Dunkerque and Strasbourg however took these ideas even further by using quadruple turrets for eight guns but importantly with the turrets effectively built as a conjoined pair of two gun turrets rather than a single gun house with 4 barrels. This allowed further compression of the design and meant that the machine spaces could be located closer amidships, in turn allowing for the secondary turrets to shift forward again reducing the armoured portion of the hull in length.

 

It also allowed for aviation facilities to be fitted to the stern and is a design feature that would carry into the next class of ships, Richelieu and Jean Bart but more on them when i get there. This configuration for the aircraft handling lined up with French naval policy which insisted that the planes fuel be kept outside of the main armoured citadel. 

 

France faced an issue in building these new ships though, she didn't have enough facilities available to deliver them as quickly as she needed. The fast pace of the German construction and nascent Italian plans to upgrade her older ships had turned a project that at times had been in no hurry to deliver its output, into one under considerable pressure. Until these ships were delivered, France would not have anything on paper that catch the German vessels. Dunkerque was duly ordered in 1932 and the Marine Nationale pushed hard for a second ship of the class as soon as possible. The proverbial hit the fan though when Mussolini announced that Italy would be building 35,000t ships, ones which Dunkerque and Stasbourg couldn't match. France now faced a dilemma, continue with the project or scrap it and wait for new designs. In the end a compromise was reached as the delay of a year or more for new designs as unacceptable. This meant Dunkerque would be built largely to design but Starsbourg's design would be improved to increase her vertical protection to give her more of a chance if confronted by one of the new Italian ships, if only to run for it! 

 

In the end Strasbourg was laid down in Nov 1934 and completed just under 4 years later in Sept 1938. Her key facts and figures are below;

 

Displacement

Standard: 27,700 long tons (28,100 t)

Full load: 35,500 long tons (36,100 t)

Length 214.5 m (703 ft 9 in) (loa)

Beam 31.08 m (102 ft)

Draft 8.7 m (28 ft 7 in)

 

Speed 29.5 knots (54.6 km/h; 33.9 mph)

Range 13,900 km (7,500 nmi; 8,600 mi)

 

Armament

8 × 330mm/50 Modèle 1931 guns

16 × 130mm dual-purpose guns

8 × 37 mm (1.5 in) anti-aircraft (AA) guns

32 × 13.2mm AA machine guns

 

Armor

Belt: 283 mm (11.1 in)

Deck: 127 mm (5 in)

Turrets: 360 mm (14.2 in)

Conning tower: 270 mm (10.6 in)

Aircraft carried 2 floatplanes

 

A few photos of the real thing, 

 

 

 

 

I've run out of time for lunch now so i'll post some in progress shots shortly of the model, 

 

thanks

 

Sam

 

Edited December 1, 2023 by S-boat 55

[beefy66]

Like the look of these French battle wagons carry on now don't be shy when your ready.  

 

Stay Safe

beefy

[S-boat 55]

31 minutes ago, beefy66 said:

Like the look of these French battle wagons carry on now don't be shy when your ready.  

 

Stay Safe

beefy

I agree Beefy, just like a French lady, there's an elegance there not found anywhere else, 

[S-boat 55]

So update number 1, 

 

Having built Dunkerque, i'm aware of some of the pitfalls of the kit, but also knew in advance that the general fit is very good. I must say actually that the fit on Strasbourg isnt quite as good as Dunkerque. There are some subtle differences on the main superstructure which comes as one piece. Where it fitted like a glove on Dunky, it didnt want to go on Strasbourg but after a bit of gentle persuasion it gave way and fitted, it has created an issue around turret B but it doesnt notice, 

 

The hull in one piece so it saves on a lot of faffing with seams which is good, i just love the lines of it;

 

I had to do a bit fo filling on the seams but overall it wasnt too bad, rather than faff with filler i use evergreen sheet and then trimmed it, 

 

Some of you may recall that the bulkheads on the quarter deck drop down interfere with the hangar space if you want to have a plane in it, i didn't realise until it was too late last time, but remembered this time and did the modifications. The hangar floor was a fixed two level arrangement, so in theory you could have three planes, one on the catapult, one on the top hanger floor and the third on the lower hanger level, it did mean of course you could only take the lower plane out after the upper had been removed first. Floor is just humbrol 106, no need to hide the gap at the end, the plane cant go down it and it cant be seen when the pane and catapult are in place, 

 

 

This is a side project im doing for my eldest daughter,

 

the kit throws together very quickly as much of it is pre moulded single pieces, I decided as there is welding detail already present above the waterline that i wouldn't bother with trying to simulate hull plating detail on this one, she'd primed in black anyway incase i want to try and effects later with a dark tone underneath, after about 10 hours i got to hear, 

 

but a couple hours more and she looks much better with model master barrels in place and more on the tower superstructure, 

 

This comparison with Dunkerque shoes the differences on the superstructure, 

 

 

And 12 hours in, here is where she is at, 

 

 

Bit of a shipyard going on, 

 

Unlike Graf spee, I'm hoping to share more info on the design and history of the ship on this thread, please shout if it gets boring or too much, 

 

Thanks for stopping by

 

Sam

 

 

 

 

Edited July 28, 2024 by S-boat 55

[ArnoldAmbrose]

11 hours ago, S-boat 55 said:

I'm hoping to share more info on the design and history of the ship on this thread,

👍

 

11 hours ago, S-boat 55 said:

please shout if it gets boring or too much, 

No chance of that happening.

 

       Yes, they were graceful ships. My personal favorite is the Scharnhorst, but that's "Beauty in the eye of the beholder" and all that. I've read in the past that these ships were a response to the German battlecruisers. I wonder who would triumph if they actually met in battle. Many factors involved, I guess.

       Once this is done it would be an interesting comparison with the pair (Dunky and Strazzy) side by side to show the differences.       Regards, Jeff.

[S-boat 55]

On 02/12/2023 at 04:49, ArnoldAmbrose said:

👍

 

No chance of that happening.

 

       Yes, they were graceful ships. My personal favorite is the Scharnhorst, but that's "Beauty in the eye of the beholder" and all that. I've read in the past that these ships were a response to the German battlecruisers. I wonder who would triumph if they actually met in battle. Many factors involved, I guess.

       Once this is done it would be an interesting comparison with the pair (Dunky and Strazzy) side by side to show the differences.       Regards, Jeff.

Morning Jeff or is it evening there? 

 

I agree scharnhorst had fantastic lines and almost by chance, had they not have discovered the issue with the original bow they would have looked quite stubby - the flair makes her I think.

 

From what I've read Scharnhorst were a replacement for a heavier versions of the Panzerschiffe hat were originally planned. When Germany saw that France was building ships to counter the likes of admiral graf spee they then upped the anti as well and also there was the small rivalry in keeping up with Mussolini's Littorio class. 

 

To counter both, France then commissioned an upscaled version of Dunkerque in the Richelieu class that were specifically designed to counter the Littorio and Scharnhorst classes to which of course the Germans then responded with the Bismarck class.

 

And as with all naval races, France wasn't gonna stop there with Bismarck being built, (I think everybody knew she was much heavier than quoted), there was the Alsace class being drawn up but not before two further sub variants of Richelieu  we ordered, if I can summon the strength to scratch build I might attempt one of them because they're fascinating changes to the design being almost distant cousins more than actual sisters, 

 

As for who would have won between Dunkerque and Scharnhorst that's a very interesting question I think purely on paper it's in some ways a complete mismatch and yet a stalemate. 

 

Dunky was only armoured with a nine inch belt by memory and so in theory couldn't stand up to anything with two big of gun calibre being essentially protected like a battle cruiser but had the advantage of a larger gun at 13 inches so in theory should be able to engage earlier, 

 

Scharnhorst by comparison very much is a fast battleship with a thick armoured belt of 14 inches, all be it in a more basic arrangement but of course she doesn't have the gun having only 11 inch guns, which were a modified type of the very guns that Dunkerque had specifically been designed to withstand so you could see a situation whereby Dunky is unable to hurt Scharnhorst and Scharnhorst is unable to hurt Dunkerque. In anything other than crystal clear flat day in the Atlantic they're very similar in terms of speed so how it would go I've no idea, I think it would come down to whoever is best able to disable other elements of the ship perhaps range finding and fire control or perhaps cause damage to cause a loss in speed. Dunkerques internal trunking to her funnel was vulnerable but then so we're German electrical systems, 

 

So in summary who knows 😀

Edited March 3, 2024 by S-boat 55

[S-boat 55]

Hi All, 

 

There's been a bit of radio silence on Strasbourg because i pulled Graf Zeppelin back out.....less said of that the better - honestly wish i hadn't started the camo, still thats as aside, 

 

Strasbourg has moved on a bit as well though, but first this illustrates the reason i dropped a question about boat cradles the other week, the plastic ones are...simple, I think they are one of the very few negatives on the kit and call for replacing, i didnt on Dunkerque as i wasnt sure where to get them but having looked into the options following some replies on here i found a solution so took them off in readiness, 

 

You may also notice that thee is a wooden deck on her now, its one from ARTWOX that comes with some photo etch as well and was recommended by @Faraway, so far it seems to have gone down well and was well worth the money with very useful etch replacing the breakwater in front of A turret, more on that later, 

 

 

Not a normal orientation but bits of the upper works were going on and kept lifting as the set so i left her like this overnight, that sorted it, very helpful the tower is basically amidships 

 

 

Secondary gun turrets, simplified but okay shape wise, i did look at aftermarket but simply cannot justify the cost, replace the secondaries and id need to do the main guns and in all that would be a good chunk to pay out, maybe i'll reconsider but i think they'll do as they are, the etch parts are too big for the openings, or rather the openigns are too small so need correcting, 

 

 

 

Looking more the part with them in place, 

 

 

Cradles gone and ready for replacements, 

 

 

 

The photo above shows that i gave up mid airbrushing due to paint issues, but it does show the colour better than the picture below (at least on my monitor), is just humbrol 153 with a bit of 106 grey mixed in to tone it down a bit (7ml 153 to 0.5ml 106), I'd forgotten how long it takes humbrols to fully dry, you can just see some of the etch on the main deck, the main colour for her though will be colourcoats which will be easier to use  and smell less,, id forgotten how pongy humbrol is, i'll get better photo's later and a future project is in the back ground to be built along side Littorio when i move to that chapter in the treaties project, the cruiser Zara complete with a glaring issue on the hull that im toying with fixing, we'll see, first up will be an escort for Strasbourg to be built along side her.  

 

 

That's it for now, I estimate that she is about 45% done, there's more progress that i;ve made but i dont have photot's of it yet, will add later, 

 

thanks all and hope yuo had a wonderful Christmas and fun new years, 

 

 

Sam

 

 

 

Edited January 4, 2024 by S-boat 55

[bismarck builder]

bloody ell more popcorn watching your build i dont have time for any of mine

[beefy66]

This has progressed quite a bit looking good Sam the model that is.  

 

Stay Safe

beefy

[Tegethoff]

On 03/01/2024 at 21:23, S-boat 55 said:

 

The photo above shows that i gave up mid airbrushing due to paint issues,

 

 

 

I didn't realise you were doing a fictional diorama of Strasbourg as the British had wanted to see find her at Mers-el-Kebir after 3rd July 1940 ... (Good progress and nice parts).

[S-boat 55]

51 minutes ago, Tegethoff said:

I didn't realise you were doing a fictional diorama of Strasbourg as the British had wanted to see find her at Mers-el-Kebir after 3rd July 1940 ... (Good progress and nice parts)

Lol, they certainly tried, she was the only one to escape port if I recall correctly, eventually outrunning HMS Hood who gave chase, 

[S-boat 55]

Hi All, 

 

I've been a little tardy in updates on the builds of late, partially because life has been distracting and partially because much of what little has been done wouldn't really notice, 

 

Partially by way of overall update here is the treaty project in its totallity, thought the odd photo of progress would be a good marker of the passage of time, Graf Spee is 70% done i think, Dunkerque finished of course and Strasbourg catching up, the others well.......time will tell

 

 

Started getting paint on the uppers though which is making her look better, showing off her shapes and curves, the chosen colour is actually American - its US32, No46 Neutral Outside Grey 1945 from colourcoats. Finding exact shades for French ships is im informed pretty much impossible due to the loss of records but it was described as being a light grey with a slight blue tint sp i think this fits the bill nicely. As will all colourcoats it sprays on very well the only issue being the colour - i find it nearly impossible to work out where I'm exactly spraying with light grey and white! As ever is dries very matt which has both advantages and disadvantages. 

 

The deck set included masks so they were used and the rest will stay in place until she has been satin coated etc, i did remember that the bollards were white with a black cap this time. On Dunky i got it the wrong way around, painting white is always a pain though. I was once again to heavy handed woith the bruch paint though and got bleed on the deck near the hangar opening, Hopefully a plane half out will obscure it enough. 

 

Painting the decks - Humbrol 123 - its proving a pain and after a good bit of thinking ive realised why. When i did Dunkerque she was brush painted in satins from humbrol, the next result being that if i got a darker deck colour on a bulkhead a quick wipe quickly corrected it, with Strasbourg though the paint is quite matt and being much mich lighter that isn't working. Ultimately its my carelessness and poor planning that has caused the issue so there's going to be a lot of touch up. 

 

After A LOT of swearing i got the support columns in place for the two decks, the lower ones are replacements as hobbyboss's didn't fit right,

 

 

Hopefully more of an update later along with a bit more in her history Ive been reading, the French navy was much busier in the early war than they are given credit for really, 

 

Quick question - any one any experience of a spare parts service with hobbyboss, i mangled the etch catapult for her and could do with a replacement, the closest i can find is an IJ  catapult which might work but im hoping i could get another from hobbyboss, 

 

Thanks for stopping in

 

Sam

 

p.s. the gloire project is on hold due to trumpeter announcing a late war version of the class that would be an awful lot easier to adapt so mulling over that at present, 

 

 

 

Edited February 24, 2024 by S-boat 55

[ArnoldAmbrose]

Gidday Sam, you'll have quite a battle squadron when they're all complete.

 

Looking at Strazzy's hull shape, no external armour belt or bulges that I can see she might be a good ship to scratch build if I can get plans and hull contours. But it would be a long way off. In the meantime I'll continue to admire yours here.

Regards, Jeff.

[S-boat 55]

20 minutes ago, ArnoldAmbrose said:

Gidday Sam, you'll have quite a battle squadron when they're all complete.

 

Looking at Strazzy's hull shape, no external armour belt or bulges that I can see she might be a good ship to scratch build if I can get plans and hull contours. But it would be a long way off. In the meantime I'll continue to admire yours here.

Regards, Jeff.

Hi Jeff,

 

I seem to recall stumbling across plans for Dunkerque when I was looking for images of Strasbourg, if I can refund them I'll save them, they were open source, other navies seem very unworried about sharing historic plans unlike the RN that looks it all away and charges the earth for them, 

[S-boat 55]

24 minutes ago, ArnoldAmbrose said:

Gidday Sam, you'll have quite a battle squadron when they're all complete.

 

Looking at Strazzy's hull shape, no external armour belt or bulges that I can see she might be a good ship to scratch build if I can get plans and hull contours. But it would be a long way off. In the meantime I'll continue to admire yours here.

Regards, Jeff.

Turns out I had them saved as a bookmark, 

 

http://3dhistory.de/wordpress/warship-drawings-warship-blue-prints-warship-plans/french-battleship-drawingsplan-sets-newest-first/french-battle-ship-dunkerque-as-build-1935/

 

 

[ArnoldAmbrose]

Gidday Sam, these are GREAT! 👍 It would be a big project, but at my scale (1/600) and level of detail I think I can do it with these. I would have to refer to models such as yours for detail (take that as a compliment 🙂). Many thanks.

Regards, Jeff.

[bissyboat]

Nice sizeable project you can really sink your teeth into. Looks very good. ⚓👍

[Andy H]

Looking good. 😎👍

[S-boat 55]

Evening all, 

 

Its been a while, but been making small bits of progress on Strasbourg. Got a bit disheartened with her when i messed up the catapult but got some mojo back again. 

 

When building i like to check on the ships history from time to time to see what the ship and crew were up to however many years go it was. This month 85 years ago Strasbourg had just been commissioned and joined the newly formed Atlantic fleet, forming the 1st battle division along with Dunkerque. A few months later she formed the Force de raid, hunting for the ships she had been designed specifically to combat, Graf Spee, Admiral Scheer and Lutzow. The Force De Raid was a considerable grouping of ships, comprising the two battleships, the 4th cruiser squadron (Gloire, Moncalm and George Leygues) and 3 divisions of contre-torpilleurs (destroyers). 

 

This took Strasbourg on tour to Liverpool, Loch Ewe, Oban, Scapa Flow and Rosyth.  When the patrols got going properly it took the ship from the western most tip of northern france out to the Azores and down to the Cape Verde islands. These operations would contiue for a while before Strasboug and two cruisers were detached to form Force X along with HMS Hermes, who would.now patrol west of the current patrol area.

 

During these sorties the german cargo ship Santa Fe was intercepted and captured. Whilst Strasbourg was carrying out these operations Dunkerque was in the North Atlantic, ironically as part of a hunting group with HMS Hood, the ship that would months later be firing at her. 

 

Later the two forces would be reformed back into Force de Raid once more and in 1940 with the situation worsening and fears around Italy's intentions led the force to move their base of operations of Mers el-Kebir, there so much of the Marine Nationale would be significantly damaged. The circumstances around that are fascinating when you read into them, but more on that next time. 

 

As for the model, well some of this is dry fitted but she's really coming together,

 

Not too much to do on the focsle

 

Etch starting to go on, theres several smaller bits as well, one thing the kit lacks is cable reels so io might add some if i can find photo's giving ideas of their locations

 

Bit more railing and a sneak peak of one of the things that been distracting me behind, 

 

I've yet to fit her crown, been waiting on rigging parts which came today, (10 days from my friend in China), with those here i can fit them to the crown before assembly which will be a lot easier than last time. 

 

 

Love this shot of these ships, 

 

Dry fitted progress to date, 

 

 

Any way thanks for looking, more soon hopefully, Im down to do a group build in May so i need to get cracking with as much as i can before then,

 

Sam

 

Edited April 29, 2024 by S-boat 55

[Jagdtiger1]

Very nice looking model Sam,

 

Interesting to read on your first post that the French were still encountering issues from the late 19th Century regarding their shipbuilding capabilities being limited in dock space.

 

Also easy to see the inspiration taken from the Nelsons, especially that Queen Anne's mansion-esque superstructure! Never really taken an interest in the MN besides their cruisers, but this is very educational, please keep up the historical posts. I'd highly recommend any books by John Jordan if anyone is interested, a man who certainly knows his stuff about the MN, and the current editor of the Warship books.

 

Re; spare catapult. Chinese manufacturers are usually never too good on spare parts, try contacting the UK importer. I believe it is creative models, but don't quote me on that. I'm sure they gave me a sprue from a missing trumpeter kit about a decade ago.

 

James.

[S-boat 55]

2 hours ago, Jagdtiger1 said:

Very nice looking model Sam,

 

Interesting to read on your first post that the French were still encountering issues from the late 19th Century regarding their shipbuilding capabilities being limited in dock space.

 

Also easy to see the inspiration taken from the Nelsons, especially that Queen Anne's mansion-esque superstructure! Never really taken an interest in the MN besides their cruisers, but this is very educational, please keep up the historical posts. I'd highly recommend any books by John Jordan if anyone is interested, a man who certainly knows his stuff about the MN, and the current editor of the Warship books.

 

Re; spare catapult. Chinese manufacturers are usually never too good on spare parts, try contacting the UK importer. I believe it is creative models, but don't quote me on that. I'm sure they gave me a sprue from a missing trumpeter kit about a decade ago.

 

James.

Thanks James, I'll give them a go re the catapult 

 

 

[S-boat 55]

Hi All, 

 

Started on Starsbourgs crown, its slightly different to Dunkerques as she has extra aerials and forms of radar fitted, obviously bits to add yet, 

 

 

And sorted a catapult, this one went together easily - there really is no rhyme or reason to how using etch works sometimes, 

 

 

Can start getting bits on her done now, 

 

Thanks

 

Sam

[beefy66]

Great PE work there Sam.  

 

Stay Safe

beefy

[ArnoldAmbrose]

G'day Sam, I love that catapult. It'll be a focal point on the quarterdeck I think. Regards, Jeff.

[Hencore]

Very clean looking build so far, lovely!

 

I like the French ships! I picked up the Kagero super drawings book of Richelieu at a show for a good price. They had some interesting features.

Edited July 26, 2024 by Hencore