FROG VC-10 on Antiques Road Trip

[Whofan]

Today's Antiques Road trip showed expert Paul Harper finding a FROG VC-10 - with flashing lights ! in an antique shop.

 

He briefly said about how it took him back to hos childhood, when his mother would occasionally treat him to a model aeroplane kit.

 

He looked in the box, showing the "original instructions", and then closed the box and pointed out the shop wanted £120 for the kit!

 

I thought he was going to see if he could get that price reduced and get it, but to my surprise, he said it was too rich for him!

 

It did get me thinking though, for a FROG VC-10 kit  - I didn;t see the scale, but it was a large box so I'm guessing 1/72, in its original box, would £120 - retail - be a reasonable price?

 

I realise the kit is only worth what someone would pay for it, but does to (initially, perhaps) ask £120 seem reasonable these days ?

Edited November 29, 2023 by Whofan

[cmatthewbacon]

It's only 1:144.... mind you a part-painted but unassembled one is on eBay at the moment at £149. The box is in nice nick, though. I think if you want a 1/144 Super VC10, you're better off with a Roden kit. If you want a lit up nostalgic Frog version, then you can follow my example and buy a cheap NOVO box of the Frog kit, and spend £4 on a string of 100 LED lights on a wire at Dunelm and light up the nav lights, the cockpit and the cabin interior into the bargain...

best,

M.

[KevinK]

Well, I think I got a bargain, when I bought one for US $46 two weeks ago. Perfect box, everything was there, except for the paint and cement vials (no great loss), even the original Frog tissue wrap around the larger parts. It was a "Hail Mary" bid on eBay, which I really didn't expect to win. Something north of $100 would be more usual.

Edited November 29, 2023 by KevinK
typo

[bentwaters81tfw]

I picked up a Novo boxing without the bells and whistles a few years back for £15. I remember on a school trip to Heathrow, the FROG boxing with lights in a shop in the Queen's Building for 19 shillings 11 pence (£1 to the youngsters here.) One of my classmates bought it. I settled for an FD 2.

[TonyW]

I would think the £120 asking price was the starting point for a bit of arm wrestling. It's a fair starting point.

Were the box to be perfect and the contents complete and as they left the factory, the wrestling would be in the sellers favor. The price starts to drop as wear and tear, parts missing, work started etc. come into play. How much do you want it has a bearing as well. If it's a whim buy it's easier to pass. If you have been after one for years, less so.

Had the contents of the box been properly checked and found to contain East African Airways decals as well as the BOAC ones, the asking price would have been a bargain.

 

As a builder, a NOVO rebox or an Airfix kit would be cheaper and possibly a better bet although the Airfix kit has a collector following and the Novo kit would need decals added at the very least.

 

To build or not to build?

Completely up to the owner really. You will always get a decent sum back for a good unbuilt model, so ownership could be thought of as free or even profitable.

You probably won't get your money back if you build it, you could be surprised though. 

A well built FROG kit, with working lights would be an interesting proposition if offered for sale. It would be very rare indeed for a start. It would compliment an unbuilt model in a collection in no uncertain terms. Offered with its box and paperwork as a complete Collectors display item it would interest quite a few different collector markets. FROG collectors, BOAC collectors, working model buffs, general airliner fans, there's quite a potential market out there. An interesting, if untested thought.

[Britman]

What's this 144th or FROG's favoured scale of 1/96th?

 

Keith 

[Britman]

Just answered my own question! It was 1/144th. I had an idea that was the case but the memory was having a play day. Question for those that may know, was it a good kit shape wise?

 

Keith 

[TonyW]

2 hours ago, Britman said:

Just answered my own question! It was 1/144th. I had an idea that was the case but the memory was having a play day. Question for those that may know, was it a good kit shape wise?

 

Keith 

 

Scales took a while to sort out in the kit market with Airfix probably leading the way in the UK just by sales volume alone, a bit like Tamiya overwhelming 1.32 scale for their 1.35 preference. FROG may well have preferred to stay with 1.96 to keep continuity with the other big airliners in their range but the pressure from Airfix and the box size required for a 1.96 VC10 probably swung things.

 

Shape wise, it's of its time. There's a bit more finesse to the parts when set against the earlier 1.96 planes but there is still a certain chunky feel to the parts. The tail looks a bit big to me. 

I don't have my unbuilt kit to hand but here's a couple of shots of unrestored early builds. None have the light setup fitted. I don't know how accurate the models are but they look like a VC10 to me and would have been acceptable for most buyers when new. They are getting on a bit now.

 

 

 

The one below has the rare East African Airlines markings applied. The broken down kit above has EAA markings hand painted on. Somebody wanted this hard to find scheme for their collection and got stuck in with a fine paintbrush!

 

 

 

[Giorgio N]

On 1/18/2024 at 10:25 PM, TonyW said:

I would think the £120 asking price was the starting point for a bit of arm wrestling. It's a fair starting point.

Were the box to be perfect and the contents complete and as they left the factory, the wrestling would be in the sellers favor. The price starts to drop as wear and tear, parts missing, work started etc. come into play. How much do you want it has a bearing as well. If it's a whim buy it's easier to pass. If you have been after one for years, less so.

Had the contents of the box been properly checked and found to contain East African Airways decals as well as the BOAC ones, the asking price would have been a bargain.

 

As a builder, a NOVO rebox or an Airfix kit would be cheaper and possibly a better bet although the Airfix kit has a collector following and the Novo kit would need decals added at the very least.

 

To build or not to build?

Completely up to the owner really. You will always get a decent sum back for a good unbuilt model, so ownership could be thought of as free or even profitable.

You probably won't get your money back if you build it, you could be surprised though. 

A well built FROG kit, with working lights would be an interesting proposition if offered for sale. It would be very rare indeed for a start. It would compliment an unbuilt model in a collection in no uncertain terms. Offered with its box and paperwork as a complete Collectors display item it would interest quite a few different collector markets. FROG collectors, BOAC collectors, working model buffs, general airliner fans, there's quite a potential market out there. An interesting, if untested thought.

 

The Airfix kit is indeed becoming more and more expensive. I've seen early boxes in BOAC markings going for £80. Later boxes are of course cheaper and the tanker in Europe sells for as low as £15.

Of course with old kits there's always a chance of a lucky find

 

[TonyW]

2 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

 

The Airfix kit is indeed becoming more and more expensive. I've seen early boxes in BOAC markings going for £80. Later boxes are of course cheaper and the tanker in Europe sells for as low as £15.

Of course with old kits there's always a chance of a lucky find

 

 

The Airfix VC10 came in three slightly different BOAC markings. The box was updated each time BOAC refinished the stripes.

Airfix were shifting so many kits at the time they could well afford the updates. Roy Cross was probably more than happy to help.

[kiseca]

If a new kit was released to modern standards, at 1:144, I think I'd find £120 to be expensive for it. The quality of plastic kits has steadily got better over time, too. Therefore, for me, £120 for an old, less well detailed, often less accurate, less well fitting, possibly warped kit, and with no guarantee the decals are serviceable, is an inflated price due to its rarity. I wouldn't pay it, personally. I buy models to build them. As soon as I build that, the value is gone, so I won't pay an inflated price that's based on the condition and rarity of the kit, not on the quality of the kit.

 

It might be worth that much to someone. It's not worth it to me. I've passed on a half a dozen kits on my wishlist because the only options available are old and sellers want 2-3 times what a modern kit of a similar subject goes for. If you wait long enough (it's been years in a couple of cases for me but I am patient  ), one usually pops up for sensible money.

Edited January 25, 2024 by kiseca

[TonyW]

3 hours ago, kiseca said:

 

 

3 hours ago, kiseca said:

If a new kit was released to modern standards, at 1:144, I think I'd find £120 to be expensive for it.

 

So would I.

What usually happens is that a new release that fits all the current buyer trends lowers the price of the old, and thus far only, option.

For instance, the market for FROGs HP Victor changed once Matchbox and Airfix introduced their take on the subject in the now accepted 1.72 scale. Builders previously only went for the FROG kit as there was no alternative short of scratch building..

Collectors are a different market altogether. As a collector, I can get exited by period artwork, wrong colours and working features that would have a builder gnashing his teeth. It's all part of the history of the hobby. 1.2mm out on the wingspan or too many/too few rivets have the same effect on me. My building reflects that as well.

FROG collectors in general are getting on a bit now, I'm 67 and probably an average age for the subject. Once we start to vanish, the market for the kits we desired may well collapse altogether. Who knows?

 

 

[ckw]

4 minutes ago, TonyW said:

Once we start to vanish, the market for the kits we desired may well collapse altogether.

The sad thing is many of these collections will just go in a skip. I know my kids would a) have no idea of the potential value of old kits b) have no idea how to dispose of them c) would struggle to find an LHS to seek advice.

 

They might think about putting some on eBay, but is the hassle worth the return? Probably not for them. I may well give them some instructions regarding the disposal of any kits I leave behind (though I have every intention of building my stash before I pop my clogs ... fat chance!) I suspect those instructions will be ignored unless serious money is involved.

 

Cheers

 

Colin

[tempestfan]

5 hours ago, TonyW said:

 

FROG collectors in general are getting on a bit now, I'm 67 and probably an average age for the subject. Once we start to vanish, the market for the kits we desired may well collapse altogether. Who knows?

 

I will push the average down a tiny bit, though I'm not really a systematic Frog collector. I wonder whether the fact that Airfix as a brand is still going will keep the market for the older kits alive, at least in some places of the world. That would be of greater importance to me personally, as you know.... I wonder whether Hornby would be interested, but I guess it has pretty much relevance to them to have most of the pre-1985 kits in a pretty complete selection of the box styles till 1985. In particular as there are many kits that were Airfix in brand only, like the CIC/Max/Peerless 1/35 stuff, the Gunze 1/24 cars, all the MPC Star Wars stuff etc.

 

4 hours ago, ckw said:

The sad thing is many of these collections will just go in a skip. I know my kids would a) have no idea of the potential value of old kits b) have no idea how to dispose of them c) would struggle to find an LHS to seek advice.

 

They might think about putting some on eBay, but is the hassle worth the return? Probably not for them. I may well give them some instructions regarding the disposal of any kits I leave behind (though I have every intention of building my stash before I pop my clogs ... fat chance!) I suspect those instructions will be ignored unless serious money is involved.

Sadly you will be close to the truth in most respects. When I bought the remaining kit estate of a former model mag editor almost 8 years ago, his widow - who had absolutely no idea about models and wasn't the brightest torch on the tart anyway - said "I could put them up on ebay". Well, her husband had done so before over the years (so the best stuff was gone), but apparently had a pretty high return rate. He was the "whittler" type who had an itch to start kits, just two or three parts, then back in the box. I  still haven't fully processed the 350-odd kits, but I'd say some 20% were defective in one or the other way, and I will likely never get out my investment in time for checking them if/when I sell them on. And those are just a few of a collection comfortably in the second half of four-digit numbers. At least I have a pretty good list on my PC, noting any defects and price I paid. Well, up to 2015 that is, but luckily I reduced my buying pace a lot since then.

I wish you well re your building plans, but if you want to spare your remaining kits the landfill fate, may I suggest you list them with condition and indication of the price you paid. If you have them pre-checked and they are not 5 or 10 quid kits, it may be interesting enough to sell them on, once the day comes.

[tomkil]

Some interesting thoughts on kits and modelling in general.  It's often said we are currently in a golden age of modelling and if you look at the variety and quality of kits now available together with the vast range of accessories and the ease of obtaining them, I think it's hard to argue otherwise.  But it does bring to mind the old adage about the about the candle burning most brightly...  

[TonyW]

9 hours ago, tomkil said:

Some interesting thoughts on kits and modelling in general.  It's often said we are currently in a golden age of modelling and if you look at the variety and quality of kits now available together with the vast range of accessories and the ease of obtaining them, I think it's hard to argue otherwise.  But it does bring to mind the old adage about the about the candle burning most brightly...  

 

We are straying away from VC10's here, but it is the chat section of the Forum so we might get away with it.

 

There can't be much doubt about us living through the Golden Age of modelling.

There's hardly a niche that isn't provided for now. The internet has opened up the collectors world to reveal Aladdins Cave. Kit's I've never heard of, yet alone seen, are now available from all over the world. A search and a click or two and they are on the way!

What was staggeringly rare and hard to find is now almost commonplace.

Builders have never had it so good either. The wave keeps rolling along. Airfix keep releasing well designed and highly detailed kits. The aftermarket is huge and 3D printing is gathering a heady pace as I type. 

 

Things will change in kitworld, that's the nature of life in general. However, for every minus at the moment, there are a dozen pluses.

 

Tony, glass quite full thank you.

[ckw]

2 hours ago, TonyW said:

The internet has opened up the collectors world to reveal Aladdins Cave

Arguably the internet came along just in time to save the hobby. If it weren't for the resources made available and the ease of online shopping, I do think the hobby would be in dire straights. IMHO the growth of aftermarket parts and stuff like masks, decal sets and short run kits is only possible because of internet sales - the costs and hassle of dealing with bricks and mortar shops would make some of these smaller operations not a viable business. And now 3d printing has opened up a whole new range of opportunities for small hobby businesses.

 

But sadly, I do think this is a last hurrah - with rising costs and dropping interest, the big companies are struggling. Just consider how few new releases are arriving compared to just a few years ago.  My belief is that the hobby on the whole is supported by baby boomers with their mortgage paid, disposable income and time to spare due thanks to what will be come to be seen as a ridiculously early retirement age. Its hard to see how this will survive through the next generation at anything like the same scale.  And of course the internet itself has opened up many other (and cheaper) ways for people to spend their time.

 

Cheers

 

Colin

[TonyW]

The internet has saved the hobby, as well as helping to kill off the model shops we all miss with our rose tinted memories. It's fact and can't be changed.

No shop can hold stock of everything out there but my computer screen can. That's two conflicting takes on the subject but I'm happier with the way things are than the way things were. I can remember trawling from model shop to model shop when they were far more common, looking for specific items and failing to find what I wanted. An awful lot of stuff just didn't exist! I miss the shops but memories can be very misleading.

A big part of me thinks the wider internet is the end of times but I can't deny it has its uses as far as my interests go. I would be typing to myself without it!

 

Tony.

[Graham Boak]

That's a bit of an over-statement.  There were speciality sellers of modification parts, transfer sets, vacform kits, all of which predated the internet considerably.  You may have heard of Aeroclub, to name the most obvious example.  They relied upon the small ads in the back of the magazines for their publicity.  Not the instant effect of the internet, but in those days all serious modellers bought the magazines.  Mail order wasn't invented at the request of Amazon.

[ckw]

1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

There were speciality sellers of modification parts, transfer sets, vacform kits

Of course there were - but far fewer (and look what's happened to magazines  )... and as for mail order, as a kid my copies of the Squadron magazine were usually in tatters following numerous consultations and allotting of my available pocket money. But the internet has been a gift for the low volume/back bedroom operations cutting out so much overhead and costs coupled of course with affordable hardware to produce masks. decals and aftermarket parts. Nonetheless, if the big boys don't continue to produce kits, all the rest will eventually collapse (or become extremely niche).

 

Cheers

 

Colin

[TonyW]

I'm not disputing that there was an aftermarket prior to the internet Graham, far from it. It's a matter of scale. 

The opening up of a world wide market has enabled the smaller manufacturers to reach a wide enough market to make them far more viable than before. It can also weed out the less than proficient either by peer review or pricing. Readers letters are no match for internet forums when a new kit is either praised or dammed. The reverse side of the coin is that the small firms can be overwhelmed by success. All problems and advantages that existed before, but on a more immediate and larger scale. On balance, I think things are doing just fine at the moment.

 

3D printing could be the start of a major shift in the modelling world, much like the arrival of plastic kits in the days of carve your own modelling. The modelling press at the time was scathing in it's criticism of the new media but soon had to change its tune.

[Graham Boak]

How does having to create and run a website compare financially with sticking ads into magazines?  Just what overheads and costs have been cut?  Yes. more things can be done more quickly because of the advances in technology, no argument there.  There has been considerable benefit all round.

 

However. my point was to say that the internet didn't invent such people and such activities, as rather implied.  Whether such low-volume activities actually "saved the hobby" seems very doubtful.  The hobby is a fraction what it was, but the main producers are still reliant upon a wider market than those rushing to buy the latest fashionable accessory.  Most models, I suggest, are still made without such bits - what we see on this board comes from a very self-selected group, and not a very large one at that.

 

I would go further, that the trends in the hobby are moving it more and more away from the mass markets, with the kits being less and less suitable for beginners and the less-motivated.  Of course this is partly because, compared with the alternatives, modelling is static and requires a long-winded amount of time to get results.  That is never going to change, but  making kits more difficult and more expensive isn't going to help.  Somewhat moving away from the original point, but linked.

[Paul821]

I believe the golden age of modelling was in the 1970's. Airfix and Matchbox were churning out pocket money kits and cottage industry producers were selling vac-form models of subjects not yet touched by other, injection moulding, producers. If there was a variation on a kit then there would be a magazine article on conversion, probably using balsa wood..

 

Yes the quality, decals and detail of the models left much to be desired but I can recall the models presented at IPMS meetings where the modeller had taken time and produced an excellent outcome.

 

To be controversial - today's hobby is about constructing a kit rather the modelling. Then again some of the modellers I met in the early 1970's would complain that injection moulding wasn't modelling - true modelling was producing a model from card and or wood. Progress will always be met by comments about the good old days and I am happy that I can now order a kit online and have it delivered to my door and not need to spend hours improving it.

[Bertie McBoatface]

On 29/11/2023 at 21:50, Whofan said:

would £120 - retail - be a reasonable price?

Nothing you see on a reality TV show is real. My niece produces these shows and assures me that everything you see is adjusted, ie made up, for dramatic effect. 

[Bertie McBoatface]

19 minutes ago, Paul821 said:

To be controversial - today's hobby is about constructing a kit rather the modelling. Then again some of the modellers I met in the early 1970's would complain that injection moulding wasn't modelling - true modelling was producing a model from card and or wood. Progress will always be met by comments about the good old days and I am happy that I can now order a kit online and have it delivered to my door and not need to spend hours improving it.

Hear hear! I’m just discovering the old pleasures of 1970s plastic kits plus a bit of ingenuity. I find it far more satisfying than aftermarket ever was.