Spitfire Mk.Vc BR323 "S" Malta

[Archelaos]

Hi!

I am building Airfix Spitfire Mk.Vc Trop in 1/72 and I am planning to build it as BR323 from Malta (249 Sq). 

Are there any photos showing this plane? For markings that are quite common in various decal sets (I have Xtradecal one) there seem to be a distinct lack of photos over the web. 

[JackG]

The Brian Cauchi publication has the serial BR323 with T-S codes and listed under Operation Salient June 9th 1942 delivery.  For some reason the chapter devoted to delivery operations he decided to skip the month of June.    There are some similarly coded aircraft in the section devoted to 249 Squadron but not specifically T-S.   

 

The Colour Conundrum Compendium volume 1 again only devotes a few paragraphs to Operation Salient.   Lucas states that this was probably the last operation to deliver Spitfires in a scheme of Dark Med Blue upper and Sky Blue lowers.   He adds the fuselage roundel may have been change to the 1942 version with the slimmer yellow and white portions while the marking on the tail remained the earlier type of equal proportions.

[Paul Lucas]

It's very difficult to say anything useful about Op Salient because there is so little information available from primary sources.

 

The code and serial tie up can be found in Brian Cull's book 'Spitfires over Malta', but there is no photo. There isn't one in 'Malta the Spitfire Year' either. 

 

I don't think that I could find a photo that definitely shows a Spitfire delivered in Op Salient, which is why I was forced to be so vague in my description of their colour scheme. Where Xtradecal might have gotten their information I have no idea.

 

On the bright side, this means that nobody will be able to prove a model that employs the Xtradecal sheet markings to be incorrect. But what do they have for the colour scheme? If it's not Dark Mediterranean Blue over Sky Blue, you should be sceptical.

In my opinion.

[Archelaos]

1 hour ago, Paul Lucas said:

It's very difficult to say anything useful about Op Salient because there is so little information available from primary sources.

 

The code and serial tie up can be found in Brian Cull's book 'Spitfires over Malta', but there is no photo. There isn't one in 'Malta the Spitfire Year' either. 

 

I don't think that I could find a photo that definitely shows a Spitfire delivered in Op Salient, which is why I was forced to be so vague in my description of their colour scheme. Where Xtradecal might have gotten their information I have no idea.

 

On the bright side, this means that nobody will be able to prove a model that employs the Xtradecal sheet markings to be incorrect. But what do they have for the colour scheme? If it's not Dark Mediterranean Blue over Sky Blue, you should be sceptical.

In my opinion.

 

They have something blue partially covering Tropical Day Fighter (I would risk they suggest Azure Blue) while underside is Azure Blue

 

If there is no photo, may it be that everybody copy and analyze paint scheme from BR112 "X" (from a photo of a crashed plane) and apply it to a plane flown by more well known pilot?

 

[Paul Lucas]

I suppose anything is possible, but if it was delivered during Op Salient, my best guess is that it was Dark Mediterranean Blue on the upper surfaces and Sky Blue on the under surfaces.

 

BR112 'X' was delivered as part of Op Calendar on 20 April and was camouflaged on the upper surfaces with the Temperate Sea Scheme of Extra Dark Sea Grey and Dark Slate Grey with Sky under surfaces at 39 MU prior to being delivered to Renfriew and being loaded aboard USS Wasp. A disruptive camouflage pattern is visible in the well known photograph taken on the Sicilian beach, so it would appear that BR112 was not amongst the Spitfires that were repainted with Dark Mediterranean Blue and Sky Blue aboard Wasp prior to being flown off.

[Troy Smith]

3 hours ago, Paul Lucas said:

Where Xtradecal might have gotten their information I have no idea.

They are not noted for diligent or careful research.   I sent them detailed corrections for 4 Hurricane sheets they did this, prior to their issue, without even the courtesy of a reply.  In a follow up phone call it seemed it "my opinion"  despite including photos and sources..

So, look for a profile of BR323 in book or online. 

I just put Spitfire Vc BR323 into search, one of the first images hits

 

Or

 

What me cynical.... 

 

 

[Archelaos]

1 hour ago, Troy Smith said:

They are not noted for diligent or careful research.   I sent them detailed corrections for 4 Hurricane sheets they did this, prior to their issue, without even the courtesy of a reply.  In a follow up phone call it seemed it "my opinion"  despite including photos and sources..

So, look for a profile of BR323 in book or online. 

I just put Spitfire Vc BR323 into search, one of the first images hits

 

Or

 

What me cynical.... 

 

 

Ha, made that search and found those results... and many other  Putting them all together, pretty much all "Malta" options ever discussed were used by some reconstruction drawing or model builder for this plane.

What makes me interested is why completely undocumented plane appear in so many decal sets (seen no less than 3 including Eduard 1/48 spitfire kit) rather than one of photographed planes. That's why I expected there is a photo, just hard to find. 

Just noticed my other planned build from that set, Greek JK345 has wrongly spelled Greek text, thankfully it is tiny and repairable while SAAF JG959 AX*N has wrongly sized code letters (AX is too big). Oh well...

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, Archelaos said:

 

What makes me interested is why completely undocumented plane appear in so many decal sets

I don't  know the original 'source'  but here are some threads on other examples of this

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234976286-hurricane-mk-iic-flown-by-km-kuttlewascher/#elControls_1889582_menu

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235009172-riaf-hurricane-with-elephant-nose-art-did-it-exist/

note the profile vs photo of HV538 

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235009172-riaf-hurricane-with-elephant-nose-art-did-it-exist/page/3/#elControls_4086834_menu

This garbage gets another turn out by Artscale decals,  I've alreay seen a great build of the Arma IIC kit  as the A-A Red Elephant...  people assume that someon has done some research and...

 

There are more of these Hurricane schemes, all seem to be derived from Aircraft in Profile in the 60's. 

I'm not sure of the origin of the BR323/S,  have you sen this?

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235064924-spitfire-mk-vb-br323-george-beurling-probable-malta-camo/

 

Anyway, famous aircraft with no pics, which someone has made a 'best guess' at .... when I don't know, and like the Kuttlewascher Night Reaper and the red elephant scheme, it gained a life of it's own....

 

I refer you to the reason why I have one of my sig lines.....

 

HTH

[Paul Lucas]

And yet the second illustration has the post 1942 National marking III on the fuselage and the pre 1942 fin marking that I suggested might have been the case on Spitfires delivered by Op Salient.

 

Or is that just a coincidence?

[Ed Russell]

10 hours ago, Archelaos said:

why completely undocumented plane appear in so many decal sets

It starts with " someone" who recounts his story of what he flew 40 years beforehand, or what he thought he saw or what his cousin told him he thought he saw. Some friend or relative of that person knows some else who works in the model industry. Then the story is passed on by a manufacturer to a profile or decal artist in form of a phone call or maybe even a written note. The artist is only being paid a few pounds per profile so there is no incentive for him to check anything. So it gets into print and is used as a (usually unacknowleged) source by generations of amiable plagiarists thereafter.

Here's another one to add to Troy's collection above.

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234972519-hurricane-mki-p2992-of-527-radar-calibration-sqn-red/

 

PS - I see the pictures in the above link have been Botophucketed - for those unfamiliar with that Hurricane, there is a picture here

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234977606-hurricane-mki-p2992-of-527-radar-calibration-sqn/

 

[MACALAIN]

I have post 2 days before my point of veuw of a Salient Spitfire.

 

Alain

[MACALAIN]

On 27/11/2023 at 09:01, Paul Lucas said:

And yet the second illustration has the post 1942 National marking III on the fuselage and the pre 1942 fin marking that I suggested might have been the case on Spitfires delivered by Op Salient.

 

Or is that just a coincidence?

I have post 2 days before my point of vieuw of a "Salient" Spitfire. Following your idea.

 

Alain

[MACALAIN]

On 27/11/2023 at 09:01, Paul Lucas said:

And yet the second illustration has the post 1942 National marking III on the fuselage and the pre 1942 fin marking that I suggested might have been the case on Spitfires delivered by Op Salient.

 

Or is that just a coincidence?

 

[Archelaos]

Returning to the project, I encounter another problem. 

 

I am building Airfix 1/72 Spit Mk.Vc (the version with european camo DVoV on box)

 

There are 2 propellers with 2 spinners. One seems to be Rotol and the other de Havilland (one of two types, right?)

Xtradecal suggest middle length somewhat pointy spinner (the second DH type?). But as I do not believe Xtradecal a single bit after checking the decals, I ask you:

 

What spinner should I use for this Salient delivered Spitfire? Can I use any I have or do I have to search for the one I do not?

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, Archelaos said:

Airfix 1/72 Spit Mk.Vc (the version with european camo DVoV

 

It's not that clear, but the blades look like Rotol, so should be the longer cone type.

 

It is worth noting that Airfix did not do a very good job on the spinners.

 

Seems EE602 still exists and likely reason this scheme was picked

 

https://www.warbirdflights.co.uk/the-aircraft/supermarine-spitfire-mk.vc

[Archelaos]

1 hour ago, Troy Smith said:

It's not that clear, but the blades look like Rotol, so should be the longer cone type.

 

It is worth noting that Airfix did not do a very good job on the spinners.

 

Seems EE602 still exists and likely reason this scheme was picked

 

Sorry for not being precise. I am still building that BR323 from Malta (I want Maltese blue Spit  - I plan to paint her Dark Med Blue over Sky Blue) and just mentioned DVoV to point which box of Airfix spit V I have :D. But, thanks for info, I have second box so it may come handy. 

 

As for the spinners, if they are bad I may try to make new ones (3d+print), but do not have drawings showing the details of various types.